[Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps!

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by ANAND » Wed Nov 28, 2018 13:33

micheal65536 wrote:I think the "original health will be restored" part would be overly complicated for players. I'd go with interrupting the healing (but allowing the player to retain whatever healing they've done so far) and not giving back the item. There is still a cost to the player in that they lose the item and don't get the full healing capacity but they won't get confused when they have almost full health and then get killed in one hit or they don't know where all their health went or how the item got back in their inventory. This would also simplify the code, as it would be as simple as increasing the health until a timeout expires or the player hits someone or gets hit.

Other features I might also include would be to prevent the healing item from working (or make it unusable, which is probably simpler to code) if the player has hit someone in the last X seconds, or to require the player to be stationary or limit their movement speed.


Not reverting the healing progress would mean that players would lose the item without reaping its full benefits. If the healing process keeps getting interrupted immediately after starting, multiple times, players would keep losing items without much gain in health. This would be extremely unfair, esp. considering that healing can be interrupted even from afar, by using guns.

micheal65536 wrote:but they won't get confused when they have almost full health and then get killed in one hit or they don't know where all their health went or how the item got back in their inventory.


Players won't almost completely heal-up and suddenly die in one hit - medkits only provide 3 hearts (6 HP), in a gradual manner. Players will also get a "Your healing was interrupted" message in their chat, to make sure they understand what's going on. Info about medkits will also be added to the list of messages that's randomly shown, like "Use /report <name> <message> to report misbehaving players to moderators".
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by DELTA_FORCE » Wed Nov 28, 2018 14:53

Maybe "Don't worry! Using a medkit only temporarily interrupts healing for <time>."
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Esskeetit » Thu Nov 29, 2018 01:40

Hey guys! I've been playing CTF lately and I've noticed this bug. You can't "cook" the iron. The coal won't go in the furnace. I hope this will be fixed soon. Otherwise, great updates! I love 'em!

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Esskeetit » Thu Nov 29, 2018 01:43

Arrg...Stix had a thread going...silly me. Oh well I hope I can at least reinforce the issue and remind the mods and admins about it, lest they forget.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Esskeetit » Thu Nov 29, 2018 01:49

I caught Waterbug red handed in this caverns match today. I totally enjoyed it. :P
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by ANAND » Thu Nov 29, 2018 02:36

Esskeetit wrote:Arrg...Stix had a thread going...silly me. Oh well I hope I can at least reinforce the issue and remind the mods and admins about it, lest they forget.


The fix is ready, but rubenwardy is... let's say, "hesitating" to merge it ;)

Apparently, one of my PRs caused this problem, and I'm semi-reverting that change. See https://github.com/MT-CTF/capturetheflag/pull/277

EDIT: PR has been merged. Expect the bug to be fixed very shortly...
Last edited by ANAND on Fri Nov 30, 2018 01:08, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Waterbug » Thu Nov 29, 2018 19:20

I just realized that no ammo is needed in the starter kit on the ice map. I played a match there with intense battle and kept finding dropped rifles that still had shots in them all over the place.

Edit: also discovered that players spawning with good weapons in their pack is quite decent for gameplay.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by micheal65536 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 20:16

ANAND wrote:Not reverting the healing progress would mean that players would lose the item without reaping its full benefits. If the healing process keeps getting interrupted immediately after starting, multiple times, players would keep losing items without much gain in health. This would be extremely unfair, esp. considering that healing can be interrupted even from afar, by using guns.


That was the point of my suggestion. There would be a benefit to making sure that you are sheltered and/or in a safe location while using the healing item, otherwise the player won't get the full benefit of the item. Plus the player gets the benefit of being able to achieve some healing even in a situation where they are unable to get to safety, at the expense of "wasting" the item, which might actually be an advantage in some situations.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by DELTA_FORCE » Thu Nov 29, 2018 20:22

Now that players start out with good weapons, the Ice Age map has been very popular. Maybe doing that with more maps (like 2H2L) would be better.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by cautiouspotato » Fri Nov 30, 2018 17:05

Waterbug wrote:I just realized that no ammo is needed in the starter kit on the ice map. I played a match there with intense battle and kept finding dropped rifles that still had shots in them all over the place.

Edit: also discovered that players spawning with good weapons in their pack is quite decent for gameplay.


yeah its quite fun to play on, you can just jump into the action instantly
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Sat Dec 01, 2018 18:41

How are medkits going? I haven't seen any recent discussion in the PR page :(.

Also if you add medkits (and not just add their healing properties to apples) please make sure they are a very common find in treasure chests so that they can be accessible to everyone.

*EDIT: maybe someone could take waterbugs original suggestion and eliminate respawn immunity the second a player has a weapon from the "good-weapons" table in their inventory?
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Sat Dec 01, 2018 18:46

micheal65536 wrote:
ANAND wrote:Not reverting the healing progress would mean that players would lose the item without reaping its full benefits. If the healing process keeps getting interrupted immediately after starting, multiple times, players would keep losing items without much gain in health. This would be extremely unfair, esp. considering that healing can be interrupted even from afar, by using guns.


That was the point of my suggestion. There would be a benefit to making sure that you are sheltered and/or in a safe location while using the healing item, otherwise the player won't get the full benefit of the item. Plus the player gets the benefit of being able to achieve some healing even in a situation where they are unable to get to safety, at the expense of "wasting" the item, which might actually be an advantage in some situations.

BTW micheal just want to point out that getting pro-chest access is easy even as a new player, for example when i reset my ranking i was able to get pro-chest access in less than 30 mins.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by OrangeSoda » Sat Dec 01, 2018 20:23

Player "liljet" has not been banned a whole week after being reported by 4 players for severe rule breaking, she's still continuing with the rule breaking (switching teams with alternate accounts and acting so cocky over it). She's been warned quite a lot by regular players not to do that but still continues to do so, I strongly believe that a harsh ban is deserved because of this.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Sat Dec 01, 2018 20:47

ANAND wrote:
DELTA_FORCE wrote:G-d-S :
I know people make mistakes, but saying "Just don't" when you get kicked for attempting to capture isn't a mistake, unless the one in 999-Quintillion chance that the moderator slammed "/kick DELTA_FORCE Just don't" happened on the keyboard as I was about to capture, it isn't a mistake.
I do also moderate a server, only 3 people in total help so we have our hands full as well.
egg


Going by the situation, and the interesting kick message, I'm sure there was another player called `Demolisher_` in-game, the same time as you were playing. This missile should've been fired at Demolisher_, as a punishment for him complaining and creating a big scene out of nothing, but mis-fired thanks to tab auto-suggest.

Ah, i just saw this comment, and now that i see it i can confirm that's what happened, if i remember right, i got kicked with that exact msg just a little bit after DELTA_FORCE "left" the game. I had wondered why he left before capping the flag xD.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Sat Dec 01, 2018 21:08

OrangeSoda wrote:Player "liljet" has not been banned a whole week after being reported by 4 players for severe rule breaking, she's still continuing with the rule breaking (switching teams with alternate accounts and acting so cocky over it). She's been warned quite a lot by regular players not to do that but still continues to do so, I strongly believe that a harsh ban is deserved because of this.

Unfortunately the staff are way to cautious about banning people, the whole geesh situation proves that :/ (well, except when its me, im the exception >:)).
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Esskeetit » Sun Dec 02, 2018 00:18

Hey guys! I've decided to set a new "trend". Hope you like it.

#SaturdaySauce








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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by micheal65536 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:47

Stix wrote:BTW micheal just want to point out that getting pro-chest access is easy even as a new player, for example when i reset my ranking i was able to get pro-chest access in less than 30 mins.

How? By being surrounded by players with steel swords and whacking them with a wooden or stone sword? Not possible, statistically speaking.

I still claim that, unless you get lucky (e.g. you find a steel sword in a chest, someone puts a steel sword in the non-pro section of the chest, the other team hasn't got any steel swords, or the other team sucks) it is statistically impossible for someone to achieve and consistently maintain a K/D of 1.5. The players maintaining a high K/D in the rankings table are doing so at the expense of players like me who only have a wooden or stone sword and don't stand a chance even if they're as good as the other players. It's simple statistics, I don't understand why no one can understand this and thinks that it is possible for all the pros and potential pros on the server to have a high K/D at the same time.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by micheal65536 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:50

DELTA_FORCE wrote:Now that players start out with good weapons, the Ice Age map has been very popular. Maybe doing that with more maps (like 2H2L) would be better.

Well that's not surprising really, it eliminates the weapons imbalance that I keep talking about. Another way to mostly eliminate the weapon imbalance would be to reduce the K/D requirement on the pro section of the chest to 0.8 or 0.9.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by ANAND » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:02

micheal65536 wrote:Another way to mostly eliminate the weapon imbalance would be to reduce the K/D requirement on the pro section of the chest to 0.8 or 0.9.


A K/D requirement of 1.5 is already too low, and there are so many new players gaining access to that section every single day. Most of these players with newly-granted access to the pro-chest still don't contribute to the team in any way at all, and end up wasting all weapons to the enemy by jumping into battle without any strategy whatsoever.

While increasing the requirement isn't the best thing to do, reducing this requirement isn't any more sensible either. Ideally, a K/D-independent criteria would make things much more balanced. If you come up with some good ideas in this direction, please do let us know.

Take a look at the following GitHub issues relevant to this discussion:
- https://github.com/MT-CTF/capturetheflag/issues/205
- https://github.com/MT-CTF/capturetheflag/issues/232
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Xudo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:16

micheal65536 wrote:Well that's not surprising really, it eliminates the weapons imbalance that I keep talking about. Another way to mostly eliminate the weapon imbalance would be to reduce the K/D requirement on the pro section of the chest to 0.8 or 0.9.

If you can't earn good weapon with bad weapon, then you will only take weapons from chest.
But weapons in the pro section don't appear by themselves. Someone has to put them in.
Ones who put weapons there are real pros.
If you lower K/D ratio, then amount of people who can only take weapons will be higher than amount of people who can put them in.
As a result, if you lower K/D requirements, then there will be LESS weapons available. Even in pro section of the chest. Especially in weaker team.

There is another approach for distributing good weapons, which is described in issue called Chest point
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by micheal65536 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 14:12

Xudo wrote:If you can't earn good weapon with bad weapon, then you will only take weapons from chest.

Wrong. You can't (regularly, reliably) earn a good weapon with a bad weapon (unless the players on other team are mostly stupid). What you can do, and what I can do, is earn a good weapon with another good weapon. So with a steel sword I can kill someone else who has a steel sword. Then I can bring their steel sword back to the chest. Expecting anyone to kill someone with a good weapon using a bad weapon is unreasonable.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by micheal65536 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 14:31

ANAND wrote:Most of these players with newly-granted access to the pro-chest still don't contribute to the team in any way at all, and end up wasting all weapons to the enemy by jumping into battle without any strategy whatsoever.


No one ever seems to have any strategy on this server (at least not that I've seen), players always just go out randomly and do their own thing. There's a team chat but it never really gets used for planning a strategy. Seeing as the matter has been brought up to be honest I think that is the root of the problems on this server.

What is actually needed, but which is never going to be implemented and which I don't really expect to be implemented, is a player matching system. Players with similar scores (i.e. a measure of skill) should be matched together in a match (multiple matches run in parallel). Then you don't have one good player getting frustrated in a team full of noobs, or noobs screwing up a team of good players, and so on.

ANAND wrote:Ideally, a K/D-independent criteria would make things much more balanced. If you come up with some good ideas in this direction, please do let us know.


Well apart from the existing sort-of suggestion of "give everyone a decent weapon" (which, although making the game more fair, does remove the incentive to collect and store good weapons which is a major part of the game, so I don't consider it a good solution overall, it just showcases the issue) I can only really think of solutions involving score.

To me, the score requirement stops noobs from taking the good stuff from the chest. I see the K/D requirement as a way of restricting players that make no effort to kill other players or to stay alive and are therefore wasting weapons, which is why I suggested lowering it to just below 1 (the intention is to make it equal to 1, which is statistically the average K/D of a good player in a match of good players, while allowing some room for fluctuation). 1.5 simply does not make sense if the intention is to separate good players from bad players, or to separate players who waste weapons from players who use them productively. So other than lowering the K/D to something just below 1, I don't have any other suggestions for criteria based on the player's score/ranking, although I don't understand why lowering the K/D in this way is being rejected as a suggestion (and why everyone claims that a K/D substantially greater than 1 is reasonable and not indicative of an imbalance). The score requirement could obviously be raised to compensate if this is actually an issue.

The only other solution would be to avoid score/ranking entirely, and to have a system based on "give back what you take out". You could require players to return, on average, the same number of items that they take out (not on a per-match basis, but long-term, so similar to a K/D ratio but a ratio of items taken to items given and if this drops below a certain value or the number of items taken is greater than the number of items given by a certain difference then block access to the chest). The problem with this method though is that players might be able to "cheat" this by taking out good items and putting in worthless items, so there would need to be some way to weight the value of each item. Honestly if everyone's going to insist that a K/D requirement around 1 does not make sense and that 1.5 is apparently reasonable even though it makes no sense then this is the only other sustainable long-term solution that I can think of.

EDIT: I know my tone is harsh regarding the K/D stupidity but I fail to understand how anyone can reasonably expect every good player on the server to simultaneously hold a K/D greater than 1.5.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Sun Dec 02, 2018 15:35

micheal65536 wrote:
Stix wrote:BTW micheal just want to point out that getting pro-chest access is easy even as a new player, for example when i reset my ranking i was able to get pro-chest access in less than 30 mins.

How? By being surrounded by players with steel swords and whacking them with a wooden or stone sword? Not possible, statistically speaking.

I still claim that, unless you get lucky (e.g. you find a steel sword in a chest, someone puts a steel sword in the non-pro section of the chest, the other team hasn't got any steel swords, or the other team sucks) it is statistically impossible for someone to achieve and consistently maintain a K/D of 1.5. The players maintaining a high K/D in the rankings table are doing so at the expense of players like me who only have a wooden or stone sword and don't stand a chance even if they're as good as the other players. It's simple statistics, I don't understand why no one can understand this and thinks that it is possible for all the pros and potential pros on the server to have a high K/D at the same time.

It was a match on the cave map, and i literally had to use my pick against players with steel/mese/diamond swords. Id go after one that was distracted (preferebly a pro with no better than a steel sword) and then after slaying them id retreat to heal up then go after someone with a mese/diamond sword (if i didn't already have one that is). Another option was to help pros fighting to get kills and grab a sword.
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