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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 16:02
by Coder12
Stix wrote:I voiced this suggestion earlier but was told it was a bad idea and would be abused, so ive made an addmendment to it: The server automatically starts a vote at the beginning of a match, whether to stay or to skip it, however the difference is that instead of count the overall votes to skip to the next match there would have to be a certain percentage higher of votes to do so, if not the vote is a draw and the match stays.

I like that idea.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 08:50
by ANAND
Stix wrote:There is a player *cough* geesh *cough* that eats apples while hitting, he also can fully heal up using said apples in a split-second, if a staff member could watch him to confirm this it would be nice.


I remember playing with Geesh - they have a huge number of apple stacks in their inventory, but they don't seem to be cheating. I've killed Geesh quite a few times.

Stix wrote:Oh, and what happened to all players having the vote_starter privilege? (this used to be a thing, ik as i used it.)


vote_starter has been restricted to moderators only because of continuous abuse. People just hate the Two Hills Two Lakes map, and those with vote_starter almost always start a vote to skip. The apple-hogging menace will be over soon(TM) and trust-worthy players would be granted vote_starter again, as there won't be a necessity to skip the 2H2L map every single time.

Stix wrote:I voiced this suggestion earlier but was told it was a bad idea and would be abused, so ive made an addmendment to it: The server automatically starts a vote at the beginning of a match, whether to stay or to skip it, however the difference is that instead of count the overall votes to skip to the next match there would have to be a certain percentage higher of votes to do so, if not the vote is a draw and the match stays.


Automatic vote still isn't appealing as much, but I like the proposal of a higher ratio of 'yes' votes required for the vote to pass, good idea.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 19:53
by Me Me and Me
I wish you re-spawned with apples in your inventory. Even just a few, so that on maps like "The bridge", and "Caverns", you wouldn't run out of apples, especially on long matches.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 22:22
by Gael de Sailly
Me Me and Me wrote:I wish you re-spawned with apples in your inventory. Even just a few, so that on maps like "The bridge", and "Caverns", you wouldn't run out of apples, especially on long matches.

Running out of apples is expected on these maps, it's a different strategy than the hills map. You need to protect yourself more carefully (especially in the caverns).
The problem about respawning with apples is that most of players (noobs) won't be able to eat them before dying, and the killers could accumulate apples without limit.

Most players dislike the hills map because of apples, so it would likely not be accepted. For my part I tend to support this map, but I wouldn't want to generalize apples, they should remain the specificity of this map.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 04:14
by csirolli
Gael de Sailly wrote:The problem about respawning with apples is that most of players (noobs) won't be able to eat them before dying, and the killers could accumulate apples without limit.

I disagree. The "killers" cannot accumulate apples if their kill does not drop them. I have seen countless times where players, who I know have their default items, die and drop nothing. Apparently the system prevents this dropping of initial items to prevent these kinds of abuse. So it would be okay from the abuse angle to allow for this. Players who are more interested in working as a team would then have the ability to store apples in the team chest, although whoever takes those is able to drop all of them. Which is where more limitations can come into play, such as players only being able to have 1 stack of apples, along with the already present full stack size of 30.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 18:04
by Stix
A solution to the apple-spamming would be to implement a cool-down timer: After eating five apples in quick succesion there is a cooldown of 2 seconds (this could be shown with a tool health-bar), after 2 seconds you can eat apples again. Every one second between eating would restart the counter.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:02
by Stix
A solution to the lava issue on the cave map would be to reduce its flowing distance to 1.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:03
by DragonsVolcanoDance
Apple-Spamming is a learned PVP skill on CTF. There is nothing wrong with it. Anyone who has a decent mouse (as you should for playing minetest) can learn to spam apples to their advantage, just so long as they're willing. It is not hard to learn. The Apple stacks were already reduced to 30. With all your ideas on limiting the use of apples, soon apples won't be apples anymore! They'll be useless, and that part of PVPing on CTF will die off.

Adding a cool-down timer will completely wreck the skill of apple-spamming. (as you like to call it) It'll also complicate the game majorly and add a whole new level of getting lagged terribly. (and we all know that lag is bad enough as it is)

That's kind of like cutting off everyone's feet in a foot race because some people can run faster then others.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:11
by Stix
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote:Apple-Spamming is a learned PVP skill on CTF. There is nothing wrong with it. Anyone who has a decent mouse (as you should for playing minetest) can learn to spam apples to their advantage, just so long as they're willing. It is not hard to learn. The Apple stacks were already reduced to 30. With all your ideas on limiting the use of apples, soon apples won't be apples anymore! They'll be useless, and that part of PVPing on CTF will die off.

Adding a cool-down timer will completely wreck the skill of apple-spamming. (as you like to call it) It'll also complicate the game majorly and add a whole new level of getting lagged terribly. (and we all know that lag is bad enough as it is)

That's kind of like cutting off everyone's feet in a foot race because some people can run faster then others.

Skill or not it directly conflicts with gameplay balance and therefore should be considered an issue.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:16
by Stix
Awarding players points for building defenses:

Ive seen a couple conversations about this but it always boils down to 1 point: "How can you detect if its fortifications and not a lava-side house?". Simple! Players would be rewarded for placing blocks within a certain radius of the flag, these points are awarded at the end of the game by comparing the blocks dug at base to the ones you placed. So if you placed more blocks than you dug, you get points!

This solution is still a little rough around the edges but i thought id put it out here to see if its an idea worth improving.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:44
by DragonsVolcanoDance
Stix wrote:Skill or not it directly conflicts with gameplay balance and therefore should be considered an issue.


I don't see how apple spamming conflicts with game-play balance. You might as well say that ''We should prevent players with steel swords from being killed by players with diamond swords who can use them really well, because it's unfair.''

''We should prevent players from apple-spamming, because players that find apples and can use them really well can easily kill other players that don't have any apples at all. It's unfair.''

Not everyone can find apples, and not everyone can find diamond or steel swords. We might as well throw away the whole sword aspect of CTF as well. (Sarcasm)

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:51
by Stix
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote:
Stix wrote:Skill or not it directly conflicts with gameplay balance and therefore should be considered an issue.


I don't see how apple spamming conflicts with game-play balance. You might as well say that ''We should prevent players with steel swords from being killed by players with diamond swords who can use them really well, because it's unfair.''

''We should prevent players from apple-spamming, because players that find apples and can use them really well can easily kill other players that don't have any apples at all. It's unfair.''

Not everyone can find apples, and not everyone can find diamond or steel swords. We might as well throw away the whole sword aspect of CTF as well. (Sarcasm)

*sigh* You dont get the point do you? What makes good game balance is that a player weilding the best weapon is still weak, they are practically a glass cannon, and thats why different tiers of swords works (to a certain extent).

But apples, when they land in the right hands (everyone who isnt a noob), they practically turn the player into hurrciles, as it doesnt matter how skilled your opponent is or whether your weapon is decent enough, all you have to do is have enough apples and eat them fast enough. This is a good example of poor game design imo.

Also before you join a conversation please learn to disagree without unecassarily belittling people and their ideas.

*EDIT: When a player has the superior means of destruction, in a good game they also have a disadvantage: Maybe they move slower or regen health slower (or even have less health!), maybe they have less sprint or can carry less gear. Most importantly they are also made a target by the enemy.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 22:14
by Lone_Wolf
The drawback of having a good sword is that if you die the enemy usually gets it

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 22:19
by DragonsVolcanoDance
Stix wrote:But apples, when they land in the right hands (everyone who isnt a noob), they practically turn the player into hurrciles, as it doesnt matter how skilled your opponent is or whether your weapon is decent enough, all you have to do is have enough apples and eat them fast enough. This is a good example of poor game design imo.


Actually, this is untrue in mine and Waterbug's experience. Many times in the past, I have been able to kill him before he even had the chance to start eating apples (Without a grenade), and vice versa. I have killed players before in a fight when they were using apples, and they dropped them on the ground when I finally won. (Also vice versa)

Perhaps you are referring to geesh's case, as he is very good at not dying when he has apples. Not everyone who knows how to apple-spam is a geesh, though.

I'm not a demigod when I have apples, no one is. All you have to do is have some good skills with a sword (and perhaps a gun) and you can beat someone who has infinite apples. :) They don't make you immortal, they have actually been the death of me on the caverns map, as I was focusing on eating too many instead of attacking my opponent..

The game is not poorly designed. (Except for the lag bit, but that can't be helped and must be lived with) If you must complain about everything in the game, perhaps you should consider leaving. I am not being mean when I say that, but it really seems like you rarely have fun.

Stix wrote:Also before you join a conversation please learn to disagree without unecassarily belittling people and their ideas.


I am not belittling you in any way, I am disagreeing with your argument and telling you why. I am not saying you are fruitless, I am saying your argument is fruitless. (pun intended)

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 23:59
by Stix
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote:
Stix wrote:But apples, when they land in the right hands (everyone who isnt a noob), they practically turn the player into hurrciles, as it doesnt matter how skilled your opponent is or whether your weapon is decent enough, all you have to do is have enough apples and eat them fast enough. This is a good example of poor game design imo.


Actually, this is untrue in mine and Waterbug's experience. Many times in the past, I have been able to kill him before he even had the chance to start eating apples (Without a grenade), and vice versa. I have killed players before in a fight when they were using apples, and they dropped them on the ground when I finally won. (Also vice versa)

Perhaps you are referring to geesh's case, as he is very good at not dying when he has apples. Not everyone who knows how to apple-spam is a geesh, though.

I'm not a demigod when I have apples, no one is. All you have to do is have some good skills with a sword (and perhaps a gun) and you can beat someone who has infinite apples. :) They don't make you immortal, they have actually been the death of me on the caverns map, as I was focusing on eating too many instead of attacking my opponent..

The game is not poorly designed. (Except for the lag bit, but that can't be helped and must be lived with) If you must complain about everything in the game, perhaps you should consider leaving. I am not being mean when I say that, but it really seems like you rarely have fun.

Stix wrote:Also before you join a conversation please learn to disagree without unecassarily belittling people and their ideas.


I am not belittling you in any way, I am disagreeing with your argument and telling you why. I am not saying you are fruitless, I am saying your argument is fruitless. (pun intended)


First off i agree that apples dont make you immortal, and i never said they did, they just are extremely hard to beat as long as the user's skills matches the necessary criteria (clicking fast). Also apples can be a disadvantage in one case, which is that on the cave map you cant eat them fast enough when being hit by a dia/mese sword (well some people can).

But thats it, thats just one case where apples also give you a disadvantage. When i talk about balancing i mean you shouldnt have to be better than the player with the power-gear to have a decent chance to kill them, So if thats the case then de-buffing it in some way improves the overall gameplay experience.

When you join an online FPS match you wouldnt like it if one player had 30+ health packs they could use in an instant, so why support it here?

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 00:10
by Stix
Also when i was referring to your belittling me/my-ideas i meant your mocking (the quoted sentences).

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 00:20
by Lone_Wolf
I think the game is perfect right now. Although it could use more maps. I like a challenge too. I can't see why you hate apples. Maybe you should take advantage of the 'over-powered-ness' you claim apples to have and use them to win matches :P

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 00:34
by Stix
Lone_Wolf wrote:I think the game is perfect right now. Although it could use more maps. I like a challenge too. I can't see why you hate apples. Maybe you should take advantage of the 'over-powered-ness' you claim apples to have and use them to win matches :P

I dont like winning by using apples, it feels so... cheaty, kind-of like tunneling does. Therefore i only use it when necassary (like on the 2H2L map where everyone has apples). That being said i dont see any problem with using apples to a small extent (like 5-10 apples here and there).

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 02:07
by DragonsVolcanoDance
Stix wrote: When i talk about balancing i mean you shouldnt have to be better than the player with the power-gear to have a decent chance to kill them, So if thats the case then de-buffing it in some way improves the overall gameplay experience.


Making it harder for skilled players to win against weaker opponents to make everything ''balanced'' is ridiculous. If anything, that is the complete opposite of balance. This is just common sense. Skilled players win because they're skilled. Learn to be skilled and use the various techniques for your advantage. (Such as apple-spamming)
If you don't, you really don't deserve to be beating up the skilled guys with advantages that the game gives you to make everything more 'balanced'. That sounds like extreme unbalance, extreme frustration, and a really boring way to play the game where everybody gets 50/50 on everything, despite if they work really hard or if they are completely lazy.

Stix wrote:Also when i was referring to your belittling me/my-ideas i meant your mocking (the quoted sentences).


Those were analogies.

Stix wrote:I dont like winning by using apples, it feels so... cheaty, kind-of like tunneling does. Therefore i only use it when necassary (like on the 2H2L map where everyone has apples).


It's a skill, not a cheat. :) You mentioned the 2H2L Map, and you'll notice, that's just about the only map that a lot of apple-spamming happens. And you say you use apples yourself on that map. It doesn't seem like there is a problem here - You have apples, the enemy has apples. A food fight happens; the person who is more skilled in sword and apples (or the person who got lucky) wins... Seems perfectly fair to me. If you don't like losing, get better..

It's actually the same with the caverns map. The enemy tunnels, but usually you have a tunnel as well. If you don't like it when people tunnel or use apples, then don't play on maps where it's possible to tunnel and use apples...

And now that I've finished with that wall of text, I believe it's time to wrap this discussion up. It's getting rather spammy.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 02:19
by Stix
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote: Making it harder for skilled players to win against weaker opponents to make everything ''balanced'' is ridiculous. If anything, that is the complete opposite of balance. This is just common sense. Skilled players win because they're skilled. Learn to be skilled and use the various techniques for your advantage. (Such as apple-spamming)
If you don't, you really don't deserve to be beating up the skilled guys with advantages that the game gives you to make everything more 'balanced'. That sounds like extreme unbalance, extreme frustration, and a really boring way to play the game where everybody gets 50/50 on everything, despite if they work really hard or if they are completely lazy.

Maybe i should have been clearer, im not suggesting that noobs are given an advantage over pros, far from that! Rather im suggesting that when two players of equal skill battle it should be reasonably possible for the player without the power-weapon to still win, and to do that with apples we must first de-buff them.
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote:
Stix wrote:I dont like winning by using apples, it feels so... cheaty, kind-of like tunneling does. Therefore i only use it when necassary (like on the 2H2L map where everyone has apples).

It's a skill, not a cheat. :) You mentioned the 2H2L Map, and you'll notice, that's just about the only map that a lot of apple-spamming happens. And you say you use apples yourself on that map. It doesn't seem like there is a problem here - You have apples, the enemy has apples. A food fight happens; the person who is more skilled in sword and apples (or the person who got lucky) wins... Seems perfectly fair to me. If you don't like losing, get better..

I agree that its fine as both teams have apples, but thats at the beginning, the first time you die your pretty much out of the game as you will no longer have apples to fight with, meaning your pretty much doomed unless you have a teammate with apples still alive.

I also agree that this conversation is starting to get spammy, i feel that if its continued then it should be through PM's (im assuming my inbox will start filling up after this :).

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:02
by ANAND
IMO, there's nothing wrong with "apple-spamming". The reduction of apple's stack-size to 30 was just an intermediate solution to curb "apple-hogging" (and spawn-killing, as a result) to a certain extent, and it's still possible for a player to have a metric ton of apples (it just takes up more space).

There's nothing wrong with players having more apples killing those having less apples, but in the end, that player will end up having way too many apples and the game gets very dull and boring, especially if they also don't attempt to capture the flag. I think this is what Stix was trying to say.

While apple-limiting is certain to harm the pros' killing streak, I feel that such a move is necessary from a game-play stand-point. Apple spamming is a skill, no doubt; but if that's going to cause the game-play to be oh-so-boring with one OP player mowing down everyone in sight because they have enough apples to survive WW3, I think it has to be limited. It would just be an extension of the stack-size limiting, and it's primary intention is to stop spawn-killing. Pros would still be able to apple-spam and subsequently win food-fights, but in such a way that the balance doesn't topple over...

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:18
by PETE
Guys i don't see a reason to nerf the apples they work perfect for me and are fun to use

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 13:46
by ANAND
Clarification: I'm just pushing for apples to be limited, and they won't be removed completely, AFAIK.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 14:52
by Stix
ANAND wrote:Clarification: I'm just pushing for apples to be limited, and they won't be removed completely, AFAIK.

Limit the amount of apples a player can have in their inv to a stack (oh and reduce stacks to 10).
ANAND wrote:If there's one OP player mowing down everyone in sight because they have enough apples to survive WW3, I think it has to be limited

I agree, and this is one of the biggest issues ive had with apples. While having a few apples here and there (idealy 10 being max) doesn't interfere with game-balance, having 30+ in a fight definitely does.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 18:55
by csirolli
I think having 30 is fine. But only 30, with only 1 stack being allowed. Adding a buffer to how quickly you can eat them is ridiculous and makes the apples pointless in my opinion.