[Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps!

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Coder12 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 19:42

The stack can be reduce to 10 or just one stack of 30 only in your inv they both sound good to me. This is a little off-topic but want it be cool if we had a 1v1 tournament to show who is the best.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Tue Jun 19, 2018 20:46

Coder12 wrote:The stack can be reduce to 10 or just one stack of 30 only in your inv they both sound good to me. This is a little off-topic but want it be cool if we had a 1v1 tournament to show who is the best.

I think a 1v1 torunament special once a month would be cool! (unless i have to battle IceAge...)

*EDIT: Also i think you should be able to hold only one stack of apples and the stack-limit reduced to 10, this would hopefully remove the apple menace once and for all!
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by csirolli » Tue Jun 19, 2018 21:23

What if the stack limit was dependent on the map? For example, in the map with a ton of apples users have a stack size limit of 30, but in the other 2 (where apples are rare) the stack size limit is 10? And along with that there is only 1 stack allowed per person.

How feasible is it to code any of this? That is the more important question here.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by DragonsVolcanoDance » Tue Jun 19, 2018 23:26

ANAND wrote:While apple-limiting is certain to harm the pros' killing streak, I feel that such a move is necessary from a game-play stand-point. Apple spamming is a skill, no doubt; but if that's going to cause the game-play to be oh-so-boring with one OP player mowing down everyone in sight because they have enough apples to survive WW3, I think it has to be limited. It would just be an extension of the stack-size limiting, and it's primary intention is to stop spawn-killing. Pros would still be able to apple-spam and subsequently win food-fights, but in such a way that the balance doesn't topple over...


This would be a problem, except that players who have enough apples to survive WW3 and mow down multiple skilled players at once don't exist to my knowledge. If they did, I think they'd be noticed. No player who currently plays CTF, or has in the past, has been able to do this. EXCEPT Arctic-Fox. He was a HACKER. His cheats involved his health instantly jumping back to full in a fight without having to eat apples. He could attack at the exact same time he was healing. Apples would disappear off the trees when he walked near them without him having to pick them. They appeared in his inventory. And even he was still beatable. He would die with some 200 apples on him when your grenade hit for once. And Waterbug and I were able to successfully kill him without using grenades. (He rage-quit after that, and he eventually quit the server entirely. This happened more then a year ago I believe)

Stix wrote:Limit the amount of apples a player can have in their inv to a stack (oh and reduce stacks to 10).


This pretty much undermines the whole point of having apples in the first place. Apples are meant to be used to heal yourself. Apples are free and available to everyone on the 2H2L Map. Anyone can pick the apples and learn to use them. This is what they are for. Having only 10 apples is almost useless. Players that hog hundreds of apples are extremely rare, and limiting the apple stacks to 10 because of that does way more harm to the game then good.

Stix wrote:*EDIT: Also i think you should be able to hold only one stack of apples and the stack-limit reduced to 10, this would hopefully remove the apple menace once and for all!


There is no apple menace. You are imagining it.

I know I said it was time to wrap this discussion up, but I couldn't let this go.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Waterbug » Tue Jun 19, 2018 23:56

Regarding this issue on apples, I disagree with Stix and anyone else who is proposing to limit apples in the ways suggested above. I side with DragonsVolcanoDance on this issue.

The apples are just fine the way they are. Contrary to what some people are claiming, having a whole bunch of apples turns no one into a demigod. I and only a small handful of other players including geesh and DragonsVolcanoDance are some of the strongest players that I know have ever played; and even though I am one of the strongest players ever (I have never met anyone except hackers who were much better than me) I have died so many time before running out of apples that I can't even begin to count.

I think it would not be good at all if the apples were limited to 10 per stack, or a 1 stack limit, or a cooldown for eating them; these are not good solutions. Keep in mind that this whole discussion about apples would not even be happening if it weren't for the 2H2L map; that map is the only map that has ever had massive apple hogging (it has like 500 apples on it and I would be okay if that number was cut in half for that map).

The real solution to apples is to just reduce the number of apples on the one map that has too many apples and/or to not have very many maps that have lots of apples on them.

In closing this post I will say that I like the apple-spamming aspect of this server and would hate to see it wrecked or removed (although limiting the stack size to 30 was fine); I have always loved those big fight between (or among) me and other pros with 30+ apples per player and would like to still have these at least once in a while.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 00:14

Yes apples are available to everyone and thats fine, but as i said before, once you die in a match where everyone has apples, everyone immediately gains a large advantage over you no matter how skilled you are or how good your sword/gun is, so your essentially out of the game unless you have allies with apples still alive (not to mention who has the most apples is random...)! The only way to fix this and keep apples the way they are is to add apples to a players starter kit. Also this situation can be even worse on the cave-map/bridge-map as the apples aren't evenly distributed to both teams, so ill often see one player have all 50+ apples there are to find! If we want to keep apples the way they are then we need to at least:

1. Evenly distribute the apples in chests across both sides.
2. Add apples to the starter kit on (at least) the 2H2L map.

BTW: Interesting how so far everyone who's against changing apples are arguing because of nostalgia...
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Waterbug » Wed Jun 20, 2018 01:24

Stix wrote:Yes apples are available to everyone and thats fine, but as i said before, once you die in a match where everyone has apples, everyone immediately gains a large advantage over you no matter how skilled you are or how good your sword/gun is, so your essentially out of the game unless you have allies with apples still alive (not to mention who has the most apples is random...)! The only way to fix this and keep apples the way they are is to add apples to a players starter kit. Also this situation can be even worse on the cave-map/bridge-map as the apples aren't evenly distributed to both teams, so ill often see one player have all 50+ apples there are to find! If we want to keep apples the way they are then we need to at least:

1. Evenly distribute the apples in chests across both sides.
2. Add apples to the starter kit on (at least) the 2H2L map.

BTW: Interesting how so far everyone who's against changing apples are arguing because of nostalgia...

The reason why I think just reducing the number of apples on the 2H2L map and having some maps with little or no apples (like the Caverns and Bridge maps) and some maps with many apples is that it should satisfy both parties (the ones who don't want apples to change and the ones who do). That being said, I don't see why anyone should have a problem. Some maps having lots of apples is not a mistake, it just means that those maps have a different strategy.

There is no problem with apples on the Caverns and Bridge maps. Someone managing to get 30+ apples on these two maps is rare and even when they do there is still no problem (they just end up eating the apples or losing them by dying and not being able to find more). There is nothing wrong with the very rare time on the Caverns and Bridge maps when someone has 30+ apples and nobody else has more than 5 or any at all.

The occurrence of apples in chests is random, just like with everything else that you find in chests.

Although my argument is partly (and only partly) from nostalgia, it and everyone else's argument who is against changing apples is not based on nostalgia.

Edit: By the way, saying that someone is out of the game when they die on the 2H2L map is an exaggeration. They usually are only down for a few minutes before they find weapons and apples again and return to the fight. I've seen so many players rise back up countless times after dying on the 2H2L map.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Inkfish » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:15

Stix wrote:Awarding players points for building defenses:

Ive seen a couple conversations about this but it always boils down to 1 point: "How can you detect if its fortifications and not a lava-side house?". Simple! Players would be rewarded for placing blocks within a certain radius of the flag, these points are awarded at the end of the game by comparing the blocks dug at base to the ones you placed. So if you placed more blocks than you dug, you get points!

This solution is still a little rough around the edges but i thought id put it out here to see if its an idea worth improving.


I still believe automatic point scoring has no place dealing with something an innately subjective as "base building" or "building defenses." It's just not something that's feasibly quantifiable, and it'll invariably get abused once the metrics are discovered.

My view is pretty simple: the only defense worth a damn are people, not buildings. The built environment should only exist to empower its defense – without players, the fortifications empower nothing; offer nothing. They might as well not exist.

A single newb is more powerful than a hundred blocks.

Good fortifications lend themselves to those who man them. The idea that "more blocks = more defense" is overly simplistic; I believe the role of obstruction quite limited, opting for structures that control the enemy, instead.

A wall can be breached at a dozen points; you can't predict them, so it's a disadvantage – the enemy can surprise you. However, a wall with a doorway suddenly makes them predictable: now you have the advantage. That advantage can be leveraged to your benefit. You're empowered.

I've found the natural conclusion to be somewhat counter-intuitive. The ideal base welcomes my enemies. It encourages them under false appearances; lulls them into thoughtlessness, shepherds them into my embrace.

And then I kill them.

Gaara wrote:Never underestimate the power of a frying pan.


Also, could we get rocket launchers? I want to shoot grenades like a rifle shoots bullets.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by bobmacphee » Wed Jun 20, 2018 13:20

How can I report a hacker in CTF ESP ??
I have 2 screenshots.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 14:01

bobmacphee wrote:How can I report a hacker in CTF ESP ??
I have 2 screenshots.

do /report <cheater> <commited-crime>, also this is the wrong place to post this as CTF ESP is a different server run by different people.
Last edited by Stix on Thu Jun 21, 2018 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 14:44

Waterbug wrote:The reason why I think just reducing the number of apples on the 2H2L map and having some maps with little or no apples (like the Caverns and Bridge maps) and some maps with many apples is that it should satisfy both parties (the ones who don't want apples to change and the ones who do). That being said, I don't see why anyone should have a problem. Some maps having lots of apples is not a mistake, it just means that those maps have a different strategy.

Waterbug wrote:There is no problem with apples on the Caverns and Bridge maps. Someone managing to get 30+ apples on these two maps is rare and even when they do there is still no problem (they just end up eating the apples or losing them by dying and not being able to find more). There is nothing wrong with the very rare time on the Caverns and Bridge maps when someone has 30+ apples and nobody else has more than 5 or any at all.

Actually this situation is not very rare at all, and the player that accumulates all those apples is the dominant force on the battlefield, these players will usually deal signifigant damage and only die after they run out of apples, and by that time their enemy lost a lot of gear to them.
Waterbug wrote:The occurrence of apples in chests is random, just like with everything else that you find in chests.
Yes but it doesn't have to be, what I'm suggesting is that the chests their found in and their amounts are still random, but that the server trys to evenly distribute the apples across both sides, so both teams have as many apples to find.
Waterbug wrote:Edit: By the way, saying that someone is out of the game when they die on the 2H2L map is an exaggeration. They usually are only down for a few minutes before they find weapons and apples again and return to the fight. I've seen so many players rise back up countless times after dying on the 2H2L map.

This argument is based on the assumption that their are still steel swords/apples left to find, and also ive found from experience that players trying to re-accumulate gear get targeted and put down. Even worse while their doing it the enemy has a perfect opportunity to take their flag. So no, its not an exaggeration, and i usually witness this first-hand, where one team loses all swords and apples and then are proceeded to be killed as soon as they start to go far from base. When this happens i just ask the enemy to end it.
Last edited by Stix on Wed Jun 20, 2018 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 15:18

Chem871 wrote:Just getting rid of the apples on the trees in the Two Hills &Two Lakes map would shrink the apple issue.

Wouldn't 100% resolve the issue but its definitely a step forward +1
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 15:22

Inkfish wrote:Also, could we get rocket launchers? I want to shoot grenades like a rifle shoots bullets.

The gun mod this server currently uses does include rocket launchers so this idea is completely feasible. All that would have to be done is to add them to the list of items chests can have, albiet with a very low chance.

*EDIT: I just saw this: https://github.com/rubenwardy/capturetheflag/issues/121 and was surprised noone thought of the obvious: use blue nametags to indicate pros (nametag mod already includes blue versions of letters).
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Thu Jun 21, 2018 00:06

Here's a suggestion: what if teams where divided based on rankings? There could be "ranking-points" and the higher up on the rankings you are, the more ranking points you have, and the server could try to divide teams evenly based on these points.

Anyways, id like some feedback on this idea, so if you have a couple minutes to spare write me a reply!
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by DragonsVolcanoDance » Thu Jun 21, 2018 00:13

Stix wrote:
Waterbug wrote:There is no problem with apples on the Caverns and Bridge maps. Someone managing to get 30+ apples on these two maps is rare and even when they do there is still no problem (they just end up eating the apples or losing them by dying and not being able to find more). There is nothing wrong with the very rare time on the Caverns and Bridge maps when someone has 30+ apples and nobody else has more than 5 or any at all.

Actually this situation is not very rare at all, and the player that accumulates all those apples is the dominant force on the battlefield, these players will usually deal significant damage and only die after they run out of apples, and by that time their enemy lost a lot of gear to them.


You are seeing problems where there aren't problems. This is NOT an issue. You just don't get it. If you find 30+ apples on the caverns/bridge map, (Which is indeed VERY rare, I have only had that many twice if I remember correctly) EXPECT to be better off then your enemies! Expect to be able to survive more swords hitting you because you can heal yourself. Expect to be able to deal damage to the enemy team because of it. Imagine you find an sub machine gun on any map (which is also rare) and you mow down your enemies from 40 blocks away. You should expect to be able to deal significant damage to them. It is perfectly reasonable. You have an advantage, and having that advantage over your enemies is not cheating. It doesn't need to be removed. It's part of the game. It's expected to happen occasionally, and the game eventually evens out because sometime, someplace, your enemy will have an advantage and you won't.

If you really think this is a problem, leave. This is part of the game-play. It's part of what makes Capture the Flag interesting. It's a simple game, but you never know what your enemy has, and you're always happy to surprise your enemy with a sub machine gun or 30 apples on a map where they are uncommonly found.

Stix wrote:
Waterbug wrote:The occurrence of apples in chests is random, just like with everything else that you find in chests.

Yes but it doesn't have to be, what I'm suggesting is that the chests their found in and their amounts are still random, but that the server trys to evenly distribute the apples across both sides, so both teams have as many apples to find.


This sounds like a very boring way to play the game. The random, the unexpected, makes Capture the Flag interesting. I would be bored to death if I always knew what my enemy was going to have.

Stix wrote:
Waterbug wrote:Edit: By the way, saying that someone is out of the game when they die on the 2H2L map is an exaggeration. They usually are only down for a few minutes before they find weapons and apples again and return to the fight. I've seen so many players rise back up countless times after dying on the 2H2L map.

This argument is based on the assumption that their are still steel swords/apples left to find, and also ive found from experience that players trying to re-accumulate gear get targeted and put down. Even worse while their doing it the enemy has a perfect opportunity to take their flag. So no, its not an exaggeration, and i usually witness this first-hand, where one team loses all swords and apples and then are proceeded to be killed as soon as they start to go far from base. When this happens i just ask the enemy to end it.


Waterbug is correct. Many times I have been able to rise up again after dying. But really Stix, if you're going to die, you should expect to have trouble getting back into the fight sometimes. Of course your enemy has a perfect opportunity to take your flag. They just killed you. I have to kill a lot of skilled players before taking my enemies's flag usually, and I am counting on them not killing me again immediately after they die and preventing me from taking the flag.

I don't understand how you don't understand this. This is logic.

Chem871 wrote:Just getting rid of the apples on the trees in the Two Hills &Two Lakes map would shrink the apple issue.


...There is no apple issue.

But if you really don't like playing with apples, just don't play on the 2H2L Map. It's not the only map on the entire server, and can easily be avoided. And that's perfectly fine.

Using apples in a fight is not cheating. It's just a different strategy.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Thu Jun 21, 2018 00:19

Anyone know when the server will be back up?

@DragonsVolcanoDance: Ill reply later when i have more time.
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Waterbug » Thu Jun 21, 2018 00:29

Stix wrote:Actually this situation is not very rare at all, and the player that accumulates all those apples is the dominant force on the battlefield, these players will usually deal signifigant damage and only die after they run out of apples, and by that time their enemy lost a lot of gear to them.

This is okay. There is nothing wrong here. Someone finding an unusual number of apples on a map with no apple trees is no different than someone finding a sub-machine-gun and 10 ammo packs; either way they will probably do an unusual amount of damage to the enemy team before they die. Are you going to start having a problem with sub-machine-guns now? Are you going to start having a problem with any weapon or item that gives the player who has it a significant advantage over those who don't have it?
Stix wrote:
Waterbug wrote:The occurrence of apples in chests is random, just like with everything else that you find in chests.
Yes but it doesn't have to be, what I'm suggesting is that the chests their found in and their amounts are still random, but that the server trys to evenly distribute the apples across both sides, so both teams have as many apples to find.

The server may as well already be doing what you are suggesting. The number of chests on both sides of the barrier is large enough that the number of apples on both sides will be close to equal (+/- a few, which is okay).
Stix wrote:
Waterbug wrote:Edit: By the way, saying that someone is out of the game when they die on the 2H2L map is an exaggeration. They usually are only down for a few minutes before they find weapons and apples again and return to the fight. I've seen so many players rise back up countless times after dying on the 2H2L map.

This argument is based on the assumption that their are still steel swords/apples left to find, and also ive found from experience that players trying to re-accumulate gear get targeted and put down. Even worse while their doing it the enemy has a perfect opportunity to take their flag. So no, its not an exaggeration, and i usually witness this first-hand, where one team loses all swords and apples and then are proceeded to be killed as soon as they start to go far from base. When this happens i just ask the enemy to end it.

Stix just shot himself in the foot here. By this point in the match, you should just accept that one team has pretty much won and should have every right to take the flag and end it if they succeeded in destroying the other team. And if the victorious team decides to just be mean and spawn-kill instead of gracefully ending the match (this can actually happen on the Bridge and Caverns maps too and I've seen it), that is a different issue. And by the way, dying is supposed to be troublesome and punishing to the player who died; isn't that the point of a pvp server? Why should anyone complain about the consequences of dying?
Last edited by Waterbug on Thu Jun 21, 2018 04:02, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Coder12 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 01:55

I don't think we should be fighting over apples. Everyone expressed their opinion on the subject that should be enough. Lets move on to another subject.
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Lone_Wolf » Thu Jun 21, 2018 03:24

Coder12 wrote:I don't think we should be fighting over apples

Yeah. rubenwardy needs to add an apple pie. Then it would be a little more realistic
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by ANAND » Thu Jun 21, 2018 04:58

I was in the process of creating a massive reply line-by-line, during the little spare time I had, but I got fed up; I was wasting too much time... :/

Also, as quite a few people have already noted, this discussion seems to be going on for too long. We've all expressed our concerns and opinions, and it's up to rubenwardy to decide (or just drop the discussion altogether).
 

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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Minetest Sam » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:23

I still dont feel like apples should be nerfed. Those who are complaining are partially not thinking what others will have to say about it
So here is an example to explain the situation with and without apples. So lets say your team is out of swords but you have a stack of apples available which you can pluck of trees. You get a stone sword and the apples and then you go fighting in mid where you find a pro and lets say he was wounded and used some apples to regen. Now he still may have some apples or none and you have 30 apples and a stone sword which is a good enough for a fight that you can win.
Now lets imagine you are out of apples. No apples are available and your team doesnt have any steel sword left. Now, you have to resort to fighting unfair pvp battles which is ultimately a loss. You will have no chance of winning that match unless someone goes mining and gets a lot of iron which is a rare case
In the end, I just want to say that its CTF and it isnt a pvp competition. So having a fair fight is rare. Now if you are complaining about apples now soon people will complain about diamond and mese swords in the caverns map and calling it "unfair pvp". Lets not forget Caverns has a lot of diamond and mese ores and it is equally divided. The same is the 2H2L, the map has a lot of apples and it is equally divided. I dont know why this topic is even getting debated on. Apples got nerfed from a stack to 30, now if you want to nerf them more than it is just pointless
Answer to the debate on "accumulation of apples", now in the Caverns map if you get a stack of apples and then fight someone and win then you get a lot of diamond or mese swords which accumilates and then you have a chest full of diamond or mese swords and the other team has steel swords or bronze swords at max which is very low in hit power conpared to diamond or mese. Now in this map, no one complains about accumilation of swords and the match getting one sided. We have to understand every map offers different strategies. If you cant fight others who are good at that map and then complain about apple spamming then that is pointless. Every map is unique and has its own stratgies. Lets not go and complain about every aspect of the gameplay to make it fair for both parties. Its CTF it will be unfair and there needs to be a winner
 

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Stix
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by Stix » Thu Jun 21, 2018 13:48

Why is the server still down?
Playing at Elkien3 Factions.
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Next release of your favorite game? "Bugfixes" --Wuzzy
[OLD]The new Minetest-offtopic can be found here: https://minetestoftopic.createaforum.com/index.php
 

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rubenwardy
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by rubenwardy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 14:06

The server isn't down and was never down, it's just not on the server list for some reason. I'll have to check why later, probably some weird Minetest bug
 

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ANAND
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Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

by ANAND » Thu Jun 21, 2018 14:38

Until then, the following can be used to manually connect to the server:

  • Address: ctf.rubenwardy.com
  • Port: 30000
 

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