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Re: Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 18:05
by Lone_Wolf
Stix wrote:Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

Anyone who's played on CTF for a reasonable amount of time knows that tunneling to grab the flag is a big issue and looked down upon, so i propose a way to eliminate it.

My idea is simple: to eliminate flag-tunneling we must remove players ability to tunnel. How do we do that? All it would take would be to make stone generated in the map indestructible in a 20-block radius around the flag for non-members. That way players tunnel would have to stop at a distance from the flag, and they then have to actually risk themselves to achieve their goal.

@All id love to hear what you think of this, don't forget to write a reply!

There are a lot of risks to tunneling. If someone follows and kills you (Which isn't hard to do) The enemy then have a tunnel to get to your base. In the Caverns map I made a tunnel to the enemy base. And Waterbug found it. He was able to win the match because we were unable to fend him off. So my tunnel was used against us.
And I don't look down upon tunneling. It adds to the game. Instead of just watching out for players aboveground you have to watch out for players belowground too. You also have to figure out ways to deal with the problem. Build a moat? Make the lower parts of the base out of a mix of wood, gravel, and cobble? Flood lava under the base? (Latter is probably not possible...). There are many risks and advantages to tunneling. It's good for the players that aren't as good as PvP too. They have a slightly smaller chance of being taken out by a pro

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 18:07
by DragonsVolcanoDance
These are all aspects of the game you're talking about - it's just part of the game-play. There's nothing wrong with it. Yes, annoying things will happen such as tunneling, people building straight up, people spamming apples faster then you can damage them, getting killed, getting grenades thrown at you, etc.

You start taking stuff like this away, you start taking the game away.

Re: Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 18:48
by Stix
Lone_Wolf wrote:
Stix wrote:Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

Anyone who's played on CTF for a reasonable amount of time knows that tunneling to grab the flag is a big issue and looked down upon, so i propose a way to eliminate it.

My idea is simple: to eliminate flag-tunneling we must remove players ability to tunnel. How do we do that? All it would take would be to make stone generated in the map indestructible in a 20-block radius around the flag for non-members. That way players tunnel would have to stop at a distance from the flag, and they then have to actually risk themselves to achieve their goal.

@All id love to hear what you think of this, don't forget to write a reply!

There are a lot of risks to tunneling. If someone follows and kills you (Which isn't hard to do) The enemy then have a tunnel to get to your base.

Not true. There is no way to detect an incoming tunneler, nor the direction. Meaning that once they have your flag you'll have to go through hell to get it back, as they'll block off the tunnel behind them and the end of their tunnel ends smack-dab in enemy territory. So no matter how many players you kill in an effort to get the guy with your flag, newly re-spawned players will come to take their place, meaning even a large force can get overrun.
Lone_Wolf wrote:In the Caverns map I made a tunnel to the enemy base. And Waterbug found it. He was able to win the match because we were unable to fend him off. So my tunnel was used against us.

The only way to find a incoming tunnel is pure luck or its owner was being sloppy.
Lone_Wolf wrote:And I don't look down upon tunneling. It adds to the game. Instead of just watching out for players aboveground you have to watch out for players belowground too. You also have to figure out ways to deal with the problem. Build a moat? Make the lower parts of the base out of a mix of wood, gravel, and cobble? Flood lava under the base? (Latter is probably not possible...). There are many risks and advantages to tunneling. It's good for the players that aren't as good as PvP too. They have a slightly smaller chance of being taken out by a pro

Even the best fortifications are useless against tunneling, let me give you an example: Our base was surrounded by a perimeter wall made of wood. this wall was 10 blocks high and 4 blocks thick, and supported at the back by cobble. Underneath our flag room the area was hollowed out to stop ppl tunneling beneath us, all the jungle-trees in the surrounding area was cleared out, and we had a couple players guarding the base/battlements. Despite all this a player was able to tunnel underneath it all and grab our flag. You want to know why? Because we couldn't be everywhere at once and we had no way to tell what direction they were coming from, or even that they were tunneling to us!

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 19:08
by Stix
DragonsVolcanoDance wrote:These are all aspects of the game you're talking about - it's just part of the game-play. There's nothing wrong with it. Yes, annoying things will happen such as tunneling, people building straight up, people spamming apples faster then you can damage them, getting killed, getting grenades thrown at you, etc.

You start taking stuff like this away, you start taking the game away.

Personally i have nothing against flag tunneling itself, but rather the fact that it's so OP. If it was somehow de-buffed I (and probably others) would have no problem with it.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 19:20
by Lone_Wolf
There is a way to detect tunneling. Climb up in a tower and turn viewing range to 20. If you do it right you will be able to see almost all of the players in the world. Regardless of where they are
And you can also do f7 in a 2x1 tunnel and jump repeatedly to see in noclip view. And to your example: Sounds like he could have walked in from behind and took it too.
It's not hard to look under and around a base either. I can do it without a problem :P

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 19:27
by Stix
Lone_Wolf wrote:There is a way to detect tunneling. Climb up in a tower and turn viewing range to 20. If you do it right you will be able to see almost all of the players in the world. Regardless of where they are
And you can also do f7 in a 2x1 tunnel and jump repeatedly to see in noclip view. And to your example: Sounds like he could have walked in from behind and took it too.
It's not hard to look under and around a base either. I can do it without a problem :P

Srry, but i have to actually defend the base sometimes, i can't just use the well-known 3rd-person glitch all day (yes ive tried detecting tunnelers using that trick before).

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 20:09
by Lone_Wolf
Stix wrote:
Lone_Wolf wrote:There is a way to detect tunneling. Climb up in a tower and turn viewing range to 20. If you do it right you will be able to see almost all of the players in the world. Regardless of where they are
And you can also do f7 in a 2x1 tunnel and jump repeatedly to see in noclip view. And to your example: Sounds like he could have walked in from behind and took it too.
It's not hard to look under and around a base either. I can do it without a problem :P

Srry, but i have to actually defend the base sometimes, i can't just use the well-known 3rd-person glitch all day (yes ive tried detecting tunnelers using that trick before).

Try the other one. I use it when defending the base. Works great for me. I can get down quickly too

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 21:12
by Stix
Lone_Wolf wrote:
Stix wrote:
Lone_Wolf wrote:There is a way to detect tunneling. Climb up in a tower and turn viewing range to 20. If you do it right you will be able to see almost all of the players in the world. Regardless of where they are
And you can also do f7 in a 2x1 tunnel and jump repeatedly to see in noclip view. And to your example: Sounds like he could have walked in from behind and took it too.
It's not hard to look under and around a base either. I can do it without a problem :P

Srry, but i have to actually defend the base sometimes, i can't just use the well-known 3rd-person glitch all day (yes ive tried detecting tunnelers using that trick before).

Try the other one. I use it when defending the base. Works great for me. I can get down quickly too

Wow that sounds rlly cheaty, that glitch rlly needs to be fixed. At least the 3rd-person glitch only enabled you to see tunnels (also its a pain to use).

Re: Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 23:46
by Waterbug
Stix wrote:Short Proposition on how to eliminate flag-tunneling.

Anyone who's played on CTF for a reasonable amount of time knows that tunneling to grab the flag is a big issue and looked down upon, so i propose a way to eliminate it.

My idea is simple: to eliminate flag-tunneling we must remove players ability to tunnel. How do we do that? All it would take would be to make stone generated in the map indestructible in a 20-block radius around the flag for non-members. That way players tunnel would have to stop at a distance from the flag, and they then have to actually risk themselves to achieve their goal.

@All id love to hear what you think of this, don't forget to write a reply!

You can design maps wherein it is very hard or impossible to use the tunnel tactic if you find this tactic particularly annoying (and it is kind of annoying).

rubenwardy wrote:No. Tunnelling is a valid tactic

rubenwardy is right; it is technically a valid tactic.

By the way, I've foiled players many times when they tried to use the tunnel tactic against my team.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 03:57
by PETE
i beat geesh i got a screenshot and rec screenie is on the discord he had mese and apples i had steel and 0 apples this was on the coast map

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 19:11
by Xudo
If you dig moat around the base, it will help a lot against (underneath) tonneling tactic. It is not very usable in Cave map since ppl can tonnel above base.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 08:59
by PETE
Xudo wrote:If you dig moat around the base, it will help a lot against (underneath) tonneling tactic. It is not very usable in Cave map since ppl can tonnel above base.


I only tunnel if the game has gone on forever I don't use it as a signature strat more like a go-to when there's nothing else to do especially when head-on attacks don't work

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 14:48
by Stix
@rubenwardy i've fixed the scaling issues with my rankings proposition if your interested.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 15:05
by Stix
Rankings with fixed scaling issues

So ok, some of you might have read my earlier proposition on rankings. A few days afterwards i discussed it with @rubenwardy, and he pointed out some scaling issues; at first i didn't understand what scaling issues he saw, but a few weeks later when i was thinking of it again i realized he was right, so here's my new proposition:

Everything is the same as the last proposition except one thing; Instead of just minimum k/d and score required to pass to the next rank there is also another requirement; points-per-kill ratio:

This way you have to actually be able to frequently kill enemy pros, instead of relying solely on kill-amount alone. Besides fixing the scaling issues this also partially solves spawnkilling, as spawnkillers are locked out of higher ranks, and potentionally the pro chest. Therefore forcing players to either stop spawnkilling or risk being greatly disadvantaged.

And here's the original proposition for those who missed it:
+ Spoiler

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45
by ANAND
Stix, the rankings system serves as an incentive which the players can get inspired by, and put some effort into their play. i.e. the current rankings system makes the players want to become better. The rankings system you propose outright divides the players into different classes, and makes the players of a lower class look up to those of a higher class. While this would make the "veterans" and "overlords" feel good, this won't actually inspire the players to become better at their game, at least not as efficiently as the current system. The rankings system is supposed to be "just a score-board"...



I don't see anything wrong with tunnelling either. If a team does not protect against tunnelling, that's their loss. If tunnelling is OP, then so are apples, so are guns, and so are swords. Would it make sense to eliminate them all? :)

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:00
by LMD
Proposal to solve most problems :
Just make flag carriers slower (~75 % of normal speed would be fine)
About as easy as it could get.

I guess I don't have to explain how this solves problems as tunneling ?

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 14:27
by Stix
ANAND wrote:Stix, the rankings system serves as an incentive which the players can get inspired by, and put some effort into their play. i.e. the current rankings system makes the players want to become better. The rankings system you propose outright divides the players into different classes, and makes the players of a lower class look up to those of a higher class. While this would make the "veterans" and "overlords" feel good, this won't actually inspire the players to become better at their game, at least not as efficiently as the current system. The rankings system is supposed to be "just a score-board"...

Weird, from my experience in games when they have multiple classes most players (including me) set it as a goal to reach the top, meaning they are inspired to get better. And you must admit such a system would greatly improve team fairness.
ANAND wrote:I don't see anything wrong with tunnelling either. If a team does not protect against tunnelling, that's their loss. If tunnelling is OP, then so are apples, so are guns, and so are swords. Would it make sense to eliminate them all? :)

Oh why must you deal in absolutes? Either remove them all or keep them all eh :P? And on the subject of apples...

BTW: I'm glad you've stopped being a genius long enough to reply on the forums :P.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 14:28
by Stix
LMD wrote:Proposal to solve most problems :
Just make flag carriers slower (~75 % of normal speed would be fine)
About as easy as it could get.

I guess I don't have to explain how this solves problems as tunneling ?

NO NO No No no no!

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 14:39
by LMD
YES yes yes !
If you say no, explain why.
My proposal basically just says :
Somebody stealing the flag knows nobody can be faster than him. So an entire team chases him, he needn't care; they'll all take to long to get to him. Especially with tunnels :
Warning ! This may hurt your eyes.
Image

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 14:47
by Stix
No! CTF is a fast-paced game, we should use different methods to fix this, such as this one i suggested earlier.

*EDIT: Also it is possible to catch them off-guard at their base, or grab their flag too, but that is often very difficult/suicidal.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 05:38
by cautiouspotato
LMD wrote:Proposal to solve most problems :
Just make flag carriers slower (~75 % of normal speed would be fine)
About as easy as it could get.

I guess I don't have to explain how this solves problems as tunneling ?


that has got to be one of the worst ideas i have ever seen

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 05:39
by cautiouspotato
ANAND wrote:Stix, the rankings system serves as an incentive which the players can get inspired by, and put some effort into their play. i.e. the current rankings system makes the players want to become better. The rankings system you propose outright divides the players into different classes, and makes the players of a lower class look up to those of a higher class. While this would make the "veterans" and "overlords" feel good, this won't actually inspire the players to become better at their game, at least not as efficiently as the current system. The rankings system is supposed to be "just a score-board"...


I agree, the rankings is supposed to be a scoreboard.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 01:48
by Stix
I now have video proof geesh is cheating, i just need somewhere to upload it now.

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 09:42
by PETE
Stix wrote:I now have video proof geesh is cheating, i just need somewhere to upload it now.


He was banned *Hi-Five*

Re: [Server] Capture the Flag Server (Guns!) - Multiple maps

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 13:35
by Chem871
How was he cheating? I'd like to know.