Minetest Forums

bosapara wrote:

Stix wrote: You guys are missing the easiest solution (and the one that makes the most sense imo), simply remove the grinders ability to grind ingots into dust, and the ability to grind gems at all. That way infinitely duplicating items is no longer a thing, but grinders are still useful for doubling your minerals yield.

'Good idea', it will delete all players from server, who using machines

If players leave because they are so spoiled about getting valuable resources for nothing with their machines, let them. This is a survival server, not "CreativeX"!

Sheriff wrote: Something from nothing: Machines which can ultimately create something from nothing are unrealistic. Not only are they devaluing the currency du jour--they are devaluing anything and everything that they are used to create. Even if we switch to a currency which can not be created from nothing, we will still have a devaluation problem with everything else that can.

Main mod of this server is machines (imho) and main idea of machines is items multiply.

Now try to explain to many old players that machines now will not work for 99% (if multiply items ill not work)

You will get a huge crowd of haters. Ready?

Sheriff wrote:

talamh wrote:Lag can be unbelievably bad at times. I will take a note of how many players are online when it hits me too and we can compare figures and see what is reasonable maximum - going to be harsh here and suggest 30 is a more reasonable maximum.

As to devaluation: real world or voxel world makes no difference, if the only restriction on you printing your own money (or gold) is the ability to build a money machine then all money becomes worthless. At the risk of really laboring my point we cannot just destroy the printing presses, we must stop using what has already been printed. We need a legal tender that when you offer it to someone they know you put effort into getting it.

To anyone who thinks gold should remain the server currency: I would like to buy obsidian from you, name your price, I will be standing beside my gold machine with a big smile on my face.

Lag: Thanks for agreeing to report lags! I'll try to do the same.

IRL: Your point about real-world economies is exactly why I used the phrase, "can ruin the world's economy". :) I was making the same point, in more subtle style. (Heehee.)

Something from nothing: Machines which can ultimately create something from nothing are unrealistic. Not only are they devaluing the currency du jour--they are devaluing anything and everything that they are used to create. Even if we switch to a currency which can not be created from nothing, we will still have a devaluation problem with everything else that can.

Example: Say shops start using obsidian shards for currency. Everything the shops sell gets inflated by mass production (something from nothing). Nobody (except the ignorant) ever buys anything from shops any more. Everyone tears down their shops and replaces them with amusement parks. The server, for all intents and purposes, turns into a creative server. Anyone who enjoys the true sense of "survival" leaves the server which has "survival" in its name.

I agree with you 100% here, even if we did get a valuable currency, only few would trade as mosty ppl wouldnt want to trade their hard-earned material for something with almost no value!

This bring us into a discussion of money vs currency, and to start off ill define their differences:

Currency only has value in means of trade, or in other words, because you can rely on being able to trade it with others for material goods.

Money on the other hand has real value; the reason ppl are willing to trade for it is not only because it's rare, but because it has many uses. Consider gold irl, the reason it is so valuable is not only simply because of its rarity, but also because it can't be duplicated and its usefulness in vast areas of the industry!

An example of money in minetest would be diamonds, as not only are they rare, they are useful for crafting many things, including tools, armor, and machines! So if we are going to replace gold, we need to do so with money.

*EDIT: actually i'm wrong here on one point, as long as diamonds can be duplicated it is not "pure" currency that should be used as a trade-standard.

Stix wrote:You guys are missing the easiest solution (and the one that makes the most sense imo), simply remove the grinders ability to grind ingots into dust, and the ability to grind gems at all. That way infinitely duplicating items is no longer a thing, but grinders are still useful for doubling your minerals yield.

Grinding: The ability to grind isn't really the problem. The ability to get more than you started with and then feed the output back into the input is the problem. Trying to stop the feeding of output into input isn't feasible, as people would do it manually if they couldn't do it automatically, so fixing the mods to not output (even a little) more than is input would eliminate future devaluation.

Currently devalued currency: To fix the existing problem with gold ingots already being devalued (more to talamh's point above), we would just need vending machines on which the currency is selectable. Anything that requires effort to get can be a valid currency.

Sheriff wrote:

Stix wrote:You guys are missing the easiest solution (and the one that makes the most sense imo), simply remove the grinders ability to grind ingots into dust, and the ability to grind gems at all. That way infinitely duplicating items is no longer a thing, but grinders are still useful for doubling your minerals yield.

Grinding: The ability to grind isn't really the problem. The ability to get more than you started with and then feed the output back into the input is the problem. Trying to stop the feeding of output into input isn't feasible, as people would do it manually if they couldn't do it automatically, so fixing the mods to not output (even a little) more than is input would eliminate future devaluation.

Currently devalued currency: To fix the existing problem with gold ingots already being devalued (more to talamh's point above), we would just need vending machines on which the currency is selectable. Anything that requires effort to get can be a valid currency.

I think you misunderstood me here, i'm saying that SaKeL should remove the ability to grind ingots because that's the only way players can infinitely duplicate them, other wise they only get double the yield and have to keep mining if they want more.

Actually i should make a point that even if we got valuable money/currency and everything the shops sold had no store value thanks to mass production with no cost, not all the shops would shut down, as players will still buy two thing: necessities and conveinence items. For example if you didn't have a farm or plans to make one (say you only like to mine for "income") you would still buy food from shops so that you wouldn't die, in the same way you would still buy things like books, itemframes, and decor.

Stix wrote:I agree with you 100% here, even if we did get a valuable currency, only few would trade as mosty ppl wouldnt want to trade their hard-earned material for something with almost no value!

This bring us into a discussion of money vs currency, and to start off ill define their differences:

Currency only has value in means of trade, or in other words, because you can rely on being able to trade it with others for material goods.

Money on the other hand has real value; the reason ppl are willing to trade for it is not only because it's rare, but because it has many uses. Consider gold irl, the reason it is so valuable is not only simply because of its rarity, but also because it can't be duplicated and its usefulness in vast areas of the industry!

An example of money in minetest would be diamonds, as not only are they rare, they are useful for crafting many things, including tools, armor, and machines! So if we are going to replace gold, we need to do so with money.

Thanks, Stix.

Unfortunately, diamonds are being inflated on Survival X with machines that can create something from nothing too. In other words, their scarcity is disappearing along with that of gold. Though they are more useful than gold, we'll eventually be bathed in them, which will make their value similar to that of dirt, which, if you think about it, is very useful but considered of less value than diamonds by most, because it's not scarce. On the Just Test server, dirt was very scarce and essential to survival, so everyone treated dirt like diamonds! It was really a wonder to behold! (Must Test is similar but not quite as extreme.) :)

Stix wrote:If players leave because they are so spoiled about getting valuable resources for nothing with their machines, let them. This is a survival server, not "CreativeX"!

Firstly you tell wrong things about "resources from nothing", for multiply we need a lot of fuel, time and online.

Secondly, players like it. Try to offer something more real than deleting main function from main mod of the server.

Stix wrote:Actually i should make a point that even if we got valuable money/currency and everything the shops sold had no store value thanks to mass production with no cost, not all the shops would shut down, as players will still buy two thing: necessities and conveinence items. For example if you didn't have a farm or plans to make one (say you only like to mine for "income") you would still buy food from shops so that you wouldn't die, in the same way you would still buy things like books, itemframes, and decor.

People wouldn't buy food (or anything else) if unlimited amounts of it were free.

Stix wrote:I think you misunderstood me here, i'm saying that SaKeL should remove the ability to grind ingots because that's the only way players can infinitely duplicate them, other wise they only get double the yield and have to keep mining if they want more.

Sorry if I misunderstood. My main point, with grinders, is that it's OK if they can grind ingots, as long as the output isn't more than the input.

Sheriff wrote: On the Just Test server, dirt was very scarce and essential to survival, so everyone treated dirt like diamonds! It was really a wonder to behold!

Oh the day I moved my farm on Just Test happened to be the day before lag screwed up one of his map shrinks, my original farm magically reappeared! 1000's of free dirt! I'm pretty sure I screamed like a 12 year old girl getting a pony on her birthday!

Edit: I hit submit instead of preview! Well it is Friday evening *cough* beer *cough*

bosapara wrote:Firstly you tell wrong things about "resources from nothing", for multiply we need a lot of fuel, time and online.

Secondly, players like it. Try to offer something more real than deleting main function from main mod of the server.

Fuel: I think that people are manufacturing fuel from nothing too.

Time: Production rates are quickly outstripping use rates, making time a non-factor.

On-line: Machines near spawn have constant exposure. I don't think they require their owner to be online. Sure, someone has to punch the keypad every 500 cycles or so, but if accessible, they get punched all the time.

They like it: Just because people like something is no reason to give it to them, especially if it has negative long-term effects.

"deleting main function": I think that grinding can be fixed and doesn't have to be eliminated.

Sheriff wrote:

bosapara wrote:Firstly you tell wrong things about "resources from nothing", for multiply we need a lot of fuel, time and online.

Secondly, players like it. Try to offer something more real than deleting main function from main mod of the server.

Fuel: I think that people are manufacturing fuel from nothing too.

Time: Production rates are quickly outstripping use rates, making time a non-factor.

On-line: Machines near spawn have constant exposure. I don't think they require their owner to be online. Sure, someone has to punch the keypad every 500 cycles or so, but if accessible, they get punched all the time.

They like it: Just because people like something is no reason to give it to them, especially if it has negative long-term effects.

"deleting main function": I think that grinding can be fixed and doesn't have to be eliminated.

Actually if you use clock timers you don't need a keypad, only players around, meaning no maintanence needed!

Sheriff wrote:

Stix wrote:Actually i should make a point that even if we got valuable money/currency and everything the shops sold had no store value thanks to mass production with no cost, not all the shops would shut down, as players will still buy two thing: necessities and conveinence items. For example if you didn't have a farm or plans to make one (say you only like to mine for "income") you would still buy food from shops so that you wouldn't die, in the same way you would still buy things like books, itemframes, and decor.

People wouldn't buy food (or anything else) if unlimited amounts of it were free.

Well where would they get it for free if they didn't have there own machine? And many players don't know how or don't like to use machines, not to mention that conveinence factor.

bosapara wrote:...main idea of machines is items multiply...

The main idea of machines is not to create things out of thin air. Like IRL, it's to automate the creation of more useful things from less useful things. If you want to get things without effort, why are you on a non-creative server?

Stix wrote:Actually if you use clock timers you don't need a keypad, only players around, meaning no maintanence needed!

Interesting--I didn't know that. Thanks for that tidbit!

Stix wrote:

Sheriff wrote:People wouldn't buy food (or anything else) if unlimited amounts of it were free.

Well where would they get it for free if they didn't have there own machine? And many players don't know how or don't like to use machines, not to mention that conveinence factor.

There are machines making it free now, but they're not near spawn. All it would take is for one user to make one, high-capacity, publicly-accessible food machine, near spawn, and there you go, no more buying.

talamh wrote:...screamed like a 12 year old girl getting a pony on her birthday!

ROFL Now that there's funny! :^D

Sheriff wrote:

Stix wrote:

Sheriff wrote:People wouldn't buy food (or anything else) if unlimited amounts of it were free.

Well where would they get it for free if they didn't have there own machine? And many players don't know how or don't like to use machines, not to mention that conveinence factor.

There are machines making it free now, but they're not near spawn. All it would take is for one user to make one, high-capacity, publicly-accessible food machine, near spawn, and there you go, no more buying.

Honey is always free, you can take it from any beehive even the ones at spawn. Hunger really isn't an issue on this server.

Here's an idea, what about in order to give production a continual cost the power generator no longer makes power rods ect. ect. out of thin air, instead it converts mese crystals to them, that combined with eliminating the ability to duplicate mese would improve the situation imo.

Sheriff wrote:
Fuel: I think that people are manufacturing fuel from nothing too.

You r funny. Generators are not free like and time that we spend for upgrade it.

Sheriff wrote:
Time: Production rates are quickly outstripping use rates, making time a non-factor.

Its not a real life to spend all that you earn

bosapara wrote:

Sheriff wrote:
Fuel: I think that people are manufacturing fuel from nothing too.

You r funny. Generators are not free like and time that we spend for upgrade it.

Sheriff wrote:
Time: Production rates are quickly outstripping use rates, making time a non-factor.

Its not a real life to spend all that you earn

The upgrades are free because the materials needed for upgrades can be infinitely duplicated!

*EDIT: fuel is free, players can make infinite coal generators!

Stix wrote:

bosapara wrote:

Sheriff wrote:
Fuel: I think that people are manufacturing fuel from nothing too.

You r funny. Generators are not free like and time that we spend for upgrade it.

Sheriff wrote:
Time: Production rates are quickly outstripping use rates, making time a non-factor.

Its not a real life to spend all that you earn

The upgrades are free because the materials needed for upgrades can be infinitely duplicated!

Infinitely - isnt free. You need a lot of time for it.

Also you need a huge amount of materials to invest. Another words all that you earn u will invest.

Sheriff wrote:

Stix wrote:Actually if you use clock timers you don't need a keypad, only players around, meaning no maintanence needed!

Interesting--I didn't know that. Thanks for that tidbit!

Clock generators are only active when the owner of the clock generator is nearby, other players won't activate it.

bosapara wrote:Infinitely - isnt free. You need a lot of time for it.

Also you need a huge amount of materials to invest. Another words all that you earn u will invest.

The thing is once you have your machines up and running most of the work is done. And yes i think machines should be able to pay themselves off but there still needs to be a continuous cost!

If the only cost is time without needing to do anything except check on/upgrade your machines every once in a while, then it's no longer survival!