[Server] Just Test Tribute (100 Years)

How many of you have ever played on Lag's original Just Test server?

YES
54
56%
NO
42
44%
 
Total votes : 96

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AndDT
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by AndDT » Wed Aug 24, 2016 20:49

Cyning spammed a lot. Ban him, please
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Wed Aug 24, 2016 23:07

AndDT wrote:Cyning spammed a lot. Ban him, please

DONE.

However I forsee a new name and ip which is impossible to ban. I changed timeout for voting to 120 seconds, that should work.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by Wuzzy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 15:22

I noticed a bug:
This server hurts you whenever you stand in a solid block. So far, so good. But the glitchyness of this idea begins when you stand near a high fence. You get damage from it, too.

It this is an attempt to implement suffocation, I think it is misguided. It seems it has been implemented by simply checking if the block is “walkable” (=players collide) and using damage_per_second, which deals damage whenever you *touch* the block. This would explain why it hurts players near fences, because they are technically “inside” the fence. I bet other nodebox-based nodes will have similar problems.
IMO suffocation should not be triggered by small nodes because players might be technically “inside” but it would be too weird to know where the “borders” of suffocating/non-suffocating damage are. So it's better to disable it completely for small nodes.

I have written a mod which implements suffocation in a more straightforward way:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15304

Here, suffocation a) reduces breath only and b) is only triggered for full solid 1×1×1 cubes (other checks are done as well), smaller things are ignored to avoid weirdness.

So, if this feature is what I think it is, I suggest to remove this buggy feature and replace it by the aforementioned mod.
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Thu Aug 25, 2016 15:32

I would like to address the whole "cheating" thing here, with all of your suggestions.

This is just one example of many. Notice the missing ores and no torches or tunnels?
Notice the huge quantities of materials?
Image

Image

As an admin, it is nearly impossible to keep up with "cheaters" and harder to detect unless one combs through debug text looking for "fishy" things. Frankly, much too much work and it is quite annoying actually.


So I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of huge land grabs less than 500 meters from spawn. After 500 meters away, then you can build your cheated mega bases.

What do you all think?

There are a few things that cannot be stopped:

I.P. Switching
Teleporting
No-clipping
Flying
And long reach attack with auto eat.

I wish I had that client to understand how it all works.

Please let me know what you think about this.
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by rnd » Thu Aug 25, 2016 16:11

Code: Select all
I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of ...

I propose cheating but only after some "distance" from spawn, where "distance" is distance to nearest other server.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Thu Aug 25, 2016 18:16

rnd wrote:
Code: Select all
I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of ...

I propose cheating but only after some "distance" from spawn, where "distance" is distance to nearest other server.

Policing cheaters is nearly impossible to do. What do you propose?
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by AndDT » Thu Aug 25, 2016 18:28

1) share debug.txt via (x)inetd/socat with other _trusted_ players,
2) grant them permission to ban other players
upgrade1) Drop all traffic from tor nodes

The best thought I caught in my head so far
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by 843jdc » Thu Aug 25, 2016 18:45

How can traffic from tor nodes be identified?

My policy on cheating can be found in the first post on the Cash's World forum.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by AndDT » Thu Aug 25, 2016 18:50

843jdc wrote:How can traffic from tor nodes be identified?

I mean tor exit nodes. They have their IP addresses
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by 843jdc » Thu Aug 25, 2016 19:09

I know what you meant. You seem to know a method of identifying TOR exit nodes without having to manually analyze the IP addresses using nmap or something.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Thu Aug 25, 2016 20:37

I like this rule:

If using a hacked client, do NOT use it offensively or an a manner that harms other players. That includes mining a large area close to occupied locations.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by rnd » Thu Aug 25, 2016 20:48

1.i propose:

have several moderators with spy mod so they can do screenshot evidence and ability to remove interact from offender. Lag didnt want to do that and look what happened.

You can disable /privs command so that cheater cant see who moderators are.

basically: clock and dagger operation

2. "If using a hacked client, do NOT use it offensively " heh like they will follow any stupid rules.. its a challenge to them to mess stuff up ;) not follow rules
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Thu Aug 25, 2016 21:40

Rnd i like those suggestions.

FYI No reset tonight, I will be occupied.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by Fixer » Thu Aug 25, 2016 23:38

So I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of huge land grabs less than 500 meters from spawn. After 500 meters away, then you can build your cheated mega bases.

I don't like this idea, I still think you need to catch them from time to time, maybe you need actual moderators who can spectate (via spectator mod by jp) and look into people chests to see hackers (there should be priv for that).
I think minetest needs better anticheater protection, est31 halted his work on noclip in cpp for some time unfortunately.
Maybe there should be joint force to develop a general anticheat lua mod that detects basic stuff (noclip, fly and abnormal block count). Apart from that only moderators can catch worst offenders I guess.

I.P. Switching

manual ban for worst offenders
Teleporting

default anticheat
No-clipping

there is some mod for that iirc
Flying

default anticheat
And long reach attack with auto eat.

default anticheat, but will not help against autoeat
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by GoldFireUn » Fri Aug 26, 2016 01:58

Here's what I have to add. From the server description on the master server list:

No admin, Just nostalga


IMO, what this really says to people browsing the server list is: "Hack Me!"
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by Fixer » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:39

Any glimpses from debug.txt about how they got so much stuff?
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by rnd » Fri Aug 26, 2016 13:49

this is hilarious, either minetest player:getpos() is bugged or xD
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The Flower Revolution

by Wuzzy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 14:31

The Flower Revolution has been successful! :D
The Farm of Sharing (about X=110, Z=10) now has all 6 flower species available for everyone to farm.
Image

Now some of you will ask how I managed to collect those flowers since rnd and a few other players seemingly had all flowers in possession and don't just give them away or sell them.

The Flower and Dye Monopolies
When I joined the server, it quickly became clear that it is very hard to get any flower whatsoever.

Most other players got their flowers from rnd, apparently, but they too did not want to share or sell them. They told me they have vowed to rnd to never share, spread or sell the flowers. So it seems rnd was very serious about avoiding at all costs. I tried to negotiate with rnd.

Dyes were very expensive. When I asked for a green dye, rnd offered me one dye per 5 gold (!) and got down to 3.5 gold (!) after negotiating. This was both way too expensive IMO and so I declined.

The Flower Revolution
The idea
So I had the idea to make a “revolution”. :D
I am actually not strongly interested in flowers or dyes, I did this mostly for the challenge. Using my wits to slowly accumulate all flower species so rnd and other players can't keep them all for themselves.

By making sure everyone can get flowers and thus breaking the dye monopoly. A large part of the “revolution” was in secret, and now I want to disclose on how I and other people did it.

Finding holes in the system
I tried my best to find weak spots in the system. First I tried the obvious step to just grab all flowers everywhere but I never succeeded because they were protected. Then I tried to negotiate and buy them but nobody offered me flowers.
Around rnd's and Zorg's property (which are close to spawn) (also justtest's property at the snow machine) I searched for potential pieces of unprotected land. No chance. My second idea is to search for unproteced air or water NEAR the grass where flowers might spawn, in hope a flower spawns on the unprotected land if “someone” places some dirt nearby. This was of course risky since everyone could also take away the dirt.

I also noticed that right at spawn, near the snow vending machine, land near the flowers was also unproteced so my plan was to place dirt nearby and pray that nobody takes away the dirt before the next flower spawns. This plan, however failed since abba became admin and protected pretty much everything in spawn, including the area near the snow machine.
Image
The water at the crosshair used to be unprotected.

Another hole in the system was between the “PUBLIC ATM” (iron, copper and coal deposit) (and other properties of sorcerykid) and Zorg's/rnd's properties. Some land was unprotected here so I could have placed some dirt here and wait for flowers to spawn. This plan, however, never worked. This zone was too crowded and the risk was high that I would just lose my dirt; eventually sorcerykid protected most of the land.
Here are the interesting areas:
Image
Image
Note: The latter one would not have worked anyway since the “protection hole” was too far from the grass. All I could do is to wait and hope that Zorg will one day complete the missing dirt. This still did not happen. (Yes, it was me who dug away the blocks missing in the screenshot, but I quickly placed them back into the right spots after I took the screenshot. This was just for demonstration.)

The most promising hole in the system was right at the entrance of what is now the Dye Shop. Back then, there was only water and a strange cactus fence, but a colum of about 4×1 blocks very close to dirt with grass was unproteced; here placing some dirt would look very unsuspicious because it was directly next to the existing dirt. I just had to hope nobody else figured it out. This was the original plan.

The Dye Shop and the first flower
Then, however, rnd and others build the Dye Shop.
This was a REALLY lucky coincidence as it quickly became clear they were building grass right on the critical unproteced blocks. First I was like “Oh shit! They figured out what I am about to do and now they are destroying all possibilities to let flowers spawn.”. Well, probably not. :D

I watched almost the entire process of building the Dye Shop and waited for slip-ups. Early on, I had a brief chance to grab a rose first because it was DIRECTLY placed on the unprotected land, but I tried hard to avoid that rnd and Zorg notice me grabbing it. Sadly, I didn't do anything because I didn't want to get caught. They were just too close for my taste. Later, rnd took away the rose and replaced it with some steps. Oops, chance was gone!
But later rnd thankfully placed a blue geranium in the critical unprotected land again.
And so I grabbed my first flower (Blue Geranium) while rnd and some other people built the Dye Shop near spawn.
You don't believe how exciting getting this first flower was!

Here's the spot which was unprotected and rnd and Zorg apparently had no idea for quite some time (it is protected now):
Image
In the screenshot, the pointed dirt and flower and all the other grass blocks in viewing direction were unprotected. I just waited for the right moment and grabbed a blue geranium. Note that I grabbed it BEFORE it looked like this (it didnt have so many flowers), I had to do it while the shop was still under construction.

Secret flower
I kept possession of the blue geranium secret at first; I did not want to open the flower section until I had enough flowers to theoretically craft all dyes. This was because I still planned to negotiate with rnd and other players, but this has failed. I even offered a nyan cat to rnd but that didn't help.
Guess rnd was very serious about trying to stop flowers spreading on “uncontrolled” land. ;-)

Intelligence, and two more flowers
For getting more flowers, I asked in private MANY players and I looked around everywhere in the main city. I wrote down notes on which players owned which flowers and where and looked for good places to secrtely place some dirt in hope to make a flower spawn.
In finding players, I was unsuccessful at first as players either did not have flowers, did not have them anymore or did not want to give them away because of a promise to rnd.

Then I noticed that sorcerykid suddenly had flowers on her property. It turned out she got them from rnd and promised to only use them as street decoration. She also told she makes sure the flowers are always far enough to not spread on other properties. Well, this seems clever, but I still thought this was a great fate since this means flowers will slowly appear all around the city. I just had to wait for sorcerykid to make one small mistake to grab another flower from accidentally unprotected land. This was, however, never neccessary.

One of the first street decorations of sorcerykid was this one:
Image
I couldn't believe my eyes as she placed the flowers very close to two surrounding properties. The house at the front belongs to HalXXXX (4-digit number I can't remember), the wall to the right belongs to Adelia (or whatever).
I planned to contact the property owners to notify them they have a chance to get a tulip or rose simply by rebuilding their property. but they were never around when I were. Much, much later I noticed that the small hole in the background was actually unprotected, so I could have even placed dirt and grass here and hope for the best. None of this had been done, but this is one of the other possible plans in my mind.
I think I have met sorcerykid right when she was finished building this. Had I a diamond sword carrying around at this moment, I might even have attacked her to steal the flowers from the bones. This was far away from spawn, after all with no city block nearby. Or maybe I would not have had the guts, this was risky as such an attack would surely end all my chances in getting flowers by negotiating.

Eventually I found a player who just handed me these two flowers over.
Shortly after, I have opened the flower section in the Farm of Sharing and the 3 flowers + coal were already enough to craft all dyes.

A Nyan Cat for a flower!
I also posted a reward, offering a nyan cat to everyone who can hand me over any of the missing flowers.
I was very lucky easlier in finding a nyan cat with 15 (!) nyan cat rainbows deep underground, you can find it in the “Post your Nyancats!” thread.

After the 2nd day after posting the reward, sasha2 handed me over a yellow dandelion but declined to take the reward. Sahsa2 was very clever as sasha2 placed dirt with grass very close to Fixer's property who had a yellow dandelion at a very good spot. So all sasha2 had to do was waiting. And it worked.

The secret flower farm
The final flowers, tulip and viola were easier than you will guess: Sasha2 has found the flower farm maikerumine was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15334&start=25#p230048

It's basically another public flower farm, but far away from the city. I won't disclose the location, just put some effort into it if you want to find it.

First sasha2 thought the farm was “broken” as flowers seemingly never spread but when I came there I was able to pick up a tulip and viola. Turns out the secret flower farm had all 6 flower species all along! Murphy's Law …
(Fun fact: I have actually read the aforementioned post but I probably did not really understand it. I thought flowers just spawned randomly on stone or whatever, and that rnd was just the fastest player to grab them all.)
All I had to do is to extend the flower section a bit, plant the missing flowers, multiplying them and saving a few flowers as “backup” in case something goes seriously wrong.

Conclusion
And that's how I and some other players managed to liberate all 6 flower species and finish the flower section. :-)

Whew, getting these 6 flower species was quite an adventure! :D

I hope you enjoyed reading this as much I enjoyed hunting down the six flower species. :-)
And let 1000 flowers bloom! :-)
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by sorcerykid » Fri Aug 26, 2016 15:39

fyi: rnd never gave me any flowers, nor did i submit any vows to rnd.
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by Wuzzy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 15:43

Wait, what? I am sure I have that chat different in memory. Weird.
Notice that this is sorcerykid's first post here, so I am first a bit skeptical about sorcerykid's idendity, to be honest.
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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by twoelk » Fri Aug 26, 2016 20:44

That's what Just Test was and is all about in my opinion:
figuring out how to get everything allthough the resources are so limited.

I must add here though, by sticking as much to the few rules there are as possible. For me the anarchy that some assumed to be part of the server plan never appealed to me. They never understood that by limiting the rules and making the game difficult and harsh it was not intended to make the game brutal. Indeed, great things where and are established when players work together. The UnterNull server was an interesting experiment of total anarchy. In the beginning it even lacked any protection system. In my opinion it pretty much failed to keep up an interesting game for me on the long run.

... but anybody else's mileage may vary

so hurray for the liberation of the flowers - or at least the breaking of a felt monopol
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by sorcerykid » Fri Aug 26, 2016 21:43

I am pleased to announce that the city-wide roadway network is now completed. I chose to adopt a street grid on 50m and 100m intervals due to its navigational simplicity and efficiency (the entire grid, however, is offset 25m north to avoid pre-existing properties, the sole exception being the east axis road). Rails have been installed along the perimeter road and the north axis road with minecart stations on the north, south, east, and west axis roads.

Streetscaping and signage is currently underway. Per request of Fixer, twoelk, AspireMint, et al, I will do my best accommodate boat travel around spawn town. With this in mind, bridges are being constructed on the west end and the north end. A canal is planned along the east end. The south end will probably incorporate a series of drawbridges and ladders.

Suffice it to say, this project was a huge undertaking. I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that helped make it possible. Thanks to twoelk, SerVesta, and Hal7948 for their willingness to partially or completely relocate from the planned right of way. Thanks to jtee, maikerumine, and 843jdc for adding connector roads and/or rails to their respective rural properties. And thanks to AspireMint, Fixer, and Zorg for donating spare materials needed for construction and maintenance.

I will post a map depicting the entire roadway network soon. Cheers!
 

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Re: @test@ Just Test II [SERVER]

by maikerumine » Fri Aug 26, 2016 23:24

sorcerykid wrote:I am pleased to announce that the city-wide roadway network is now completed. I chose to adopt a street grid on 50m and 100m intervals due to its navigational simplicity and efficiency (the entire grid, however, is offset 25m north to avoid pre-existing properties, the sole exception being the east axis road). Rails have been installed along the perimeter road and the north axis road with minecart stations on the north, south, east, and west axis roads.

Streetscaping and signage is currently underway. Per request of Fixer, twoelk, AspireMint, et al, I will do my best accommodate boat travel around spawn town. With this in mind, bridges are being constructed on the west end and the north end. A canal is planned along the east end. The south end will probably incorporate a series of drawbridges and ladders.

Suffice it to say, this project was a huge undertaking. I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that helped make it possible. Thanks to twoelk, SerVesta, and Hal7948 for their willingness to partially or completely relocate from the planned right of way. Thanks to jtee, maikerumine, and 843jdc for adding connector roads and/or rails to their respective rural properties. And thanks to AspireMint, Fixer, and Zorg for donating spare materials needed for construction and maintenance.

I will post a map depicting the entire roadway network soon. Cheers!

Mega shoutout to all who helped sorcerykid on the huge project! I couldn't wait so I post map here!
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