[Server] HOMETOWN

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ExeterDad
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by ExeterDad » Fri Jun 22, 2018 17:06

Miss Micah wrote:I know it’s kinda weird but I’m excited to see how all of this turns out, I’m excited to start building again, and I’m more than willing to help other players build their stuff again. Thanks everyone for still trying!!!! Also thanks EDad for not throwing in the towel!!!!!!!

EDIT: page 169

You're a Sweetie :)
You won't be able to start building tonight unfortunately.
Well in theory you could. We all could. I had the server up for a few minutes (hidden of course) last night and took a tiny peek. Minetest starts up and at least spawn looks perfect. Not sure it's up to the minute perfect. Spawn rarely changes so maybe.
I chose NOT to move around at all to see about anything else. If I would of gotten near any incomplete parts of the map (air space included), mapgen would kick in to start filling the blanks. Mapgen isn't a huge worry though. It would be the tree, river and cave generation that would follow afterwards that would be the most destructive. Those generators are not restricted to only missing map... they sweep by (literally) for what seems like a "blending" process that will fill your living room with trees, or level your river bottom house to a foundation shaped exactly like the ravine it used to be at.

I'm waiting til everyone has had the chance to get me those map saves. Then I will combine those to what I have. Then I will generate new (completely natural like first start) map roughly the size of what we've collected. I will then put our collected map down on top of it. This hopefully will prevent all the generators from tearing though what we salvaged, at the first moment we view it.
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by micheal65536 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 21:23

ExeterDad wrote:<-- Snip -->


Let me try to give as much information as I can about the process that I am considering/proposing.

Overview of the process

The basic idea (as I have already explained in brief) is to use the logs in order to reconstruct the positions of enough nodes for it to be possible to match the reconstructed map blocks against the jumbled-up ones in the backup. Much data cannot be reconstructed from the logs as not everything is logged with enough detail (tree growth, crop growth, and flowers spreading to name a few). But hopefully it will be possible to reconstruct enough data in order to find the correct map block from the backup in the areas that matter.

That last part, "in the areas that matter", is important. The more data that's available for a particular area of the map, the more successful the results will be. Areas that have large buildings will be more successful than areas with a few random blocks here and there (which will get lost among all the "noise" created by stuff that isn't logged such as plant growth). "Success" is defined as the likelihood of the correct block being chosen.

Current status

I'd estimate that development work on the tools to carry out the process is at least 50% complete. The tools should be ready to use early next week (and that's allowing for a much-needed break...). So far the results are looking promising - surprising, even. I was able to recover a building that I had significantly "griefed". That's worse than any builds that will be thrown at it by the HOMETOWN dataset, because with the entire logs available the reconstructed copies of most builds should be more-or-less complete.

However, I am not expecting the results to be perfect. Things never work like that. But they should be more than good enough to recover specific builds (but probably not reliable enough to rely on for recovering the entire map without errors). And in the event that an incorrect block is chosen, the results will be noticeably wrong so no more than a quick inspection should be required to confirm success. And even if an error does creep in, it's still better than nothing right? (Errors that are found can be replaced with air, while errors that are missed can be left for the owner of the build to fix up.)

Impact and system requirements

I cannot yet give an estimate for how long the process will take, as my current test datasets have so far been in no way comparable to the scale of HOMETOWN's data, and I am still working on heavily optimising the code.

My current aim is to recover builds based on their co-ordinates instead of attempting to recover the entire map (most of which would go to waste). This will dramatically reduce the workload. If the images from the overhead map are still available, this could be used to determine the locations of builds, otherwise the logs could be used to produce a heat-map of which areas have had the most building activity. It will also be possible to run the recovery process against the saved data that players have contributed, which will allow saved builds to be "updated" (at least to some extent) even without reading through the logs.

32 GB of RAM will be more than enough. 8 cores/threads is on the low side but probably manageable. In terms of disk space, the process will require:
  • 85 GB for the jumbled-up backup
  • 20 GB for the logs
  • As much as required to reconstruct (from the logs) whatever builds should be recovered (this could range from a few hundred megabytes to a few gigabytes depending on the size and number of the builds, and probably won't exceed 50 GB even if every ground-level block was included)
  • As much as required to store the recovered builds (about the same size as the previous item)
With careful consideration of what areas of the map are recovered, this could fit in 200 GB. If offline storage is also available, more areas could be recovered in parts (although this will require running the process multiple times against the 85 GB file, which will take long).

It will certainly not be possible to run a HOMETOWN instance during the process, nor would that be desirable (how would the recovered data be integrated with whatever has changed in the meantime?).

Conclusion

I am confident that my recovery process will be able to recover usable (if not 100% perfect) data for builds, particularly larger ones, that have not been saved elsewhere. At the very least, this will give players something to work from with repairing their builds (although I honestly expect the results to be much better than that, although I will continue doing more testing to get a better idea of the success rate). The human interaction required will be minimal. The process will probably take a few days, but hopefully not more than a week (put it this way: if it takes more than a week, I'll call it quits). The server's hardware is not outstanding but should be adequate to do the job (including the disk space, if no other database files are present at the time).
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by TumeniNodes » Sat Jun 23, 2018 07:04

6722 wrote:Hi


^ please don't do that. There is no need
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by shacharr » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:08

micheal65536 wrote:<-- Snip -->


Michael, the big question here is how does your algorithm scale.

Specifically, if your algorithm involves "scan all possible blocks for every partial block defined", it will never finish (or at least it will take few years to recover). Here is a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation to show this:

Assume that each block requires ~1KB of storage in the DB. Given the numbers by ExeterDad above, this means that HOMETOWN is approximately 85 million blocks. I will assume that the log files are covering 10% of these blocks, resulting in 8 million blocks your algorithm will want to recover.
If for each of these 8 million blocks you will be scanning the entire DB, you will end up reading the database 8 million times. This translates to reading/scanning 680 exabytes of data. This is supercomputing land :). Even if you have the entire thing in DRAM (which you can theoretically do, modern servers can pack ~200 GB of DRAM), achieving this kind of scanning will take you a long while - the internet seems to claim the memory BW of a modern server class CPU to be ~20 GB/second. Assuming that you manage to get 100% of this bandwidth from each CPU package and a dual-socket server, you need approximately 16 million machine seconds to complete the job (and that is assuming nothing else is blocking you other than memory BW and the rest of the code is completely efficient). This translates to approximately half a year of machine time, and that is assuming you got it right the first time. I think the people around here are going to want to be back in the game before that.

The only saving grace here is that this kind of algorithm is embarrassingly parallel - assuming you don't attempt to "strike out" blocks that has already been placed, you can scale out the algorithm almost to your liking. If you get 100 VMs with enough memory churning on this task, you could get it done in ~3 days, assuming all code is ready and minimal overhead recomposing the map once you have the results. If we can filter out the logs to be more focused on places where players did builds (for example, blocks where more than x% of the nodes were changed by players and adjunct blocks), this can probably accelerate this further and reduce the computing power needed. Skipping blocks that were already recovered based on the partial maps ExeterDad collected can further reduce the problem size.

Overall, this is in the "can be done, but need to carefully design the scaling of this thing" land.

ExeterDad, any chance you share the logs/filtered logs and the database files to the recovery effort (or at least to michael and me)? Given the numbers, we can probably get this done, and recover most of HOMETOWN.
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by pangland » Sat Jun 23, 2018 15:54

Thanks ExeterDad keep trying overnight! Also a lots of players providing backup support. I cant wait to see a fresh HT! I keep searching HT every hours and wonder if I could be the first player to join new HT :p

By the way, anybody have backup my garden before, would you please tell me if you did...I used more than one year to build The Green and the White Garden. I feel comfort to build in HT, so I never backup my building before. My heart was tearing after I noticed this.
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by ExeterDad » Sat Jun 23, 2018 16:15

pangland wrote:Thanks ExeterDad keep trying overnight! Also a lots of players providing backup support. I cant wait to see a fresh HT! I keep searching HT every hours and wonder if I could be the first player to join new HT :p

By the way, anybody have backup my garden before, would you please tell me if you did...I used more than one year to build The Green and the White Garden. I feel comfort to build in HT, so I never backup my building before. My heart was tearing after I noticed this.

pangland,
As far as I can see all your areas that surround spawn are completely intact. Are you referring to the area near my mountain? If so... you're in great shape :) The radius around spawn is intact for quit a distance. The players that donated covered a bunch of ground, thoroughly.
Miniminaut's area is also intact. I can't tell how much for sure because when I tested, all the various "gens" were wiping things out before my eyes.
But my test's were on a disposable copy so no worries :)

Also... I'm not going to engage any more about this map recovery tool development. I've already made my case and expressed that I do not want to proceed with it.
And for what it's worth. I would never release the logs to the public. There's conversations and dark secret's that players/admin's/staff would rather not have "go viral" lol
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by shacharr » Sat Jun 23, 2018 17:48

ExeterDad wrote:Also... I'm not going to engage any more about this map recovery tool development. I've already made my case and expressed that I do not want to proceed with it.
And for what it's worth. I would never release the logs to the public. There's conversations and dark secret's that players/admin's/staff would rather not have "go viral" lol


Oh well, the algorithmic problem somewhat nerd-snipped me. I guess if you don't want us to take a stab at it, there is nothing we can do. I would guess that few "grep" filters of the logs could reduce the amount of exposure, but I can see the reasoning to avoid that. I guess we all get a fresh start now :).
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by GreenDimond » Sat Jun 23, 2018 17:56

... So I leave for a week and the server burns down.

well then.

HOME2.0WN here we come.
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by ExeterDad » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:02

GreenDimond wrote:... So I leave for a week and the server burns down.

well then.

HOME2.0WN here we come.

I've been waiting for you to show up! Didn't expect you for a few more days. Sooo.... you and your supercomputer have any map saves? :D
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by GreenDimond » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:10

ExeterDad wrote:
GreenDimond wrote:... So I leave for a week and the server burns down.

well then.

HOME2.0WN here we come.

I've been waiting for you to show up! Didn't expect you for a few more days. Sooo.... you and your supercomputer have any map saves? :D

Sad to say, no.

My only local save of HOMETOWN is of spawn, and I am most certain that is useless.

Sorry to disappoint.
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by micheal65536 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:21

shacharr wrote:<-- snip -->


The algorithm is actually quite scalable. As you pointed out, it is very parallel and is well-suited to a multithreaded environment.

The current implementation uses hashes (locality-sensitive hashes to be specific) to avoid reading the actual database more than necessary. For each block that needs to be recovered, most of the "narrowing-down" the choice of replacement block is done based on the hashes alone and only the most likely blocks need to be read from the database for a full comparison.

So far the performance is looking very promising. The time taken to hash the blocks increases linearly as the number of map blocks increases. The time taken to find the best replacement blocks once the hashes are available depends heavily on the characteristics of the blocks in question (recovering "random" terrain takes a lot longer than recovering builds because the hashes are less useful in selecting candidate blocks). I would expect that the algorithm should be able to recover a fair number of specific builds in no more than 48 hours. There's probably a little more room for optimisation but it's already heavily optimised. The algorithm is quite memory-intensive though so hopefully memory won't be an issue.

Since you mentioned it, the original intention actually was to "strike out" used blocks (as you put it), so each block could only be replaced into one part of the reconstructed map, but this was scrapped due to a number of complications. Suppose that two blocks want to use the same replacement block, which one should get to use it? The one that "claimed" it first? The one with the better score? What if the scores are equal? And since the goal has changed from "try to recover the entire map" to "get a list of co-ordinates of specific builds and just recover those parts", this feature is hardly as relevant as it was before.

The part that's causing the most trouble at the moment is that the map generation is not completely deterministic. Trees, flowers, and (possibly?) ores seem to be in slightly different places/shapes each time the map is regenerated. This is yet another reason why recovering specific builds should be the goal and attempting to recover the map in general will mostly be a waste of time.

I should mention that what I haven't looked at at all is reconstructing the node positions from the logs. However I don't expect this to be significant compared to the actual recovery process, particularly if this first step is limited to only the areas of interest.
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by harmony » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:23

Wow, I don't know wot to say...
I will miss the old hometown but... I agree with ChimneySwift that it is also a bit of a good thing. To start off a bit fresh. Also all the noob builds and ugly builds will be gone, right? :D
I informed dolt about it as well and she agrees with me... question though... will our skins be saved? xD
*cough* Happy birthday to me!! :D xD
Thank you for everything you do and continue to do ExeterDad! :D
I <3 U HT.

P.S. - Happy birthday Loki & Clasher too! :D
저는 방탄소년단 를 사랑해요!!! 아미!! 김남준,김석진,민윤기,정호석,박지민,김태형,전정국,방탄소년단!
저는 블랙핑크 를 사랑해요!!! 블링크!! 김지수,김제니,박채영,리사(ปราณ ปริ ยา มโน บาล)
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Lone_Wolf » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:28

We may have to get the HT forum up. I see a topic 200 coming up...
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by GreenDimond » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:46

In all honesty, I wouldn't be sad if we did a complete reset.

New seed, new spawn, everything.

And yes, I know a lot of work has already gone in to trying to restore the map. But I still feel like a completely fresh start isn't a horrible idea. Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.

If we reset completely, we could automatically generate the main north-south-east-west roads so EDad doesn't have to build them himself, and also adjust the protection system at spawn so it isn't a wild land-grab.

Now, I also realize that ExeterDad, Kibbie, and family, all worked very hard for a long time to build spawn, so I suppose a new spawn is probably not the best idea.

I don't know, maybe it's a stupid idea. I have those sometimes :)
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Lone_Wolf » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:54

GreenDimond wrote:In all honesty, I wouldn't be sad if we did a complete reset.

New seed, new spawn, everything.

And yes, I know a lot of work has already gone in to trying to restore the map. But I still feel like a completely fresh start isn't a horrible idea. Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.

If we reset completely, we could automatically generate the main north-south-east-west roads so EDad doesn't have to build them himself, and also adjust the protection system at spawn so it isn't a wild land-grab.

Now, I also realize that ExeterDad, Kibbie, and family, all worked very hard for a long time to build spawn, so I suppose a new spawn is probably not the best idea.

I don't know, maybe it's a stupid idea. I have those sometimes :)

We would have land for all the good builders. Shops too. Might have a nicer landscape. Maple trees would spawn. You could modify the default tree schematics too maybe. Quite a few possibilities. I'm not against this
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by harmony » Sat Jun 23, 2018 18:55

Lone_Wolf wrote:
GreenDimond wrote:In all honesty, I wouldn't be sad if we did a complete reset.

New seed, new spawn, everything.

And yes, I know a lot of work has already gone in to trying to restore the map. But I still feel like a completely fresh start isn't a horrible idea. Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.

If we reset completely, we could automatically generate the main north-south-east-west roads so EDad doesn't have to build them himself, and also adjust the protection system at spawn so it isn't a wild land-grab.

Now, I also realize that ExeterDad, Kibbie, and family, all worked very hard for a long time to build spawn, so I suppose a new spawn is probably not the best idea.

I don't know, maybe it's a stupid idea. I have those sometimes :)

We would have land for all the good builders. Shops too. Might have a nicer landscape. Maple trees would spawn. You could modify the default tree schematics too maybe. Quite a few possibilities. I'm not against this

Can we pleeeeeeaaaaaaassssssseee Have cherry blossom trees?? :DDD XD
저는 방탄소년단 를 사랑해요!!! 아미!! 김남준,김석진,민윤기,정호석,박지민,김태형,전정국,방탄소년단!
저는 블랙핑크 를 사랑해요!!! 블링크!! 김지수,김제니,박채영,리사(ปราณ ปริ ยา มโน บาล)
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by RealGoldenHart » Sat Jun 23, 2018 19:50

So I kinda have been only been on a little. Preparing for life and struggling with real world stuff. Adulthood is tough haha.

Sorry to hear about the server and everything going on. If you need an extra man for a project to build something up let me know Edad.

By any chance, and I don't really care, but just asking, is my palace build at 20000, y, 20000 saved? If not, that is fine, but if it is, that was over a year in the making and I would at least like a copy for myself. No rush to find it though, just asking. I didn't enable local map saving for certain reasons on my laptops, so I don't have it. Just throwing it out there.

Good luck guys. I will try and be around.
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Miss Micah » Sat Jun 23, 2018 20:04

You take a nap for an hour due to the 30 minutes you have been getting and you miss the people that you have missed!!! XD

Heya ynomrah and GD and GH!!!!!!!! Also happy ynomrah and Loki and Clasher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! XD
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Miss Micah » Sat Jun 23, 2018 20:06

Also nuh uh I wanna keep my gardens and Verdant and the new city Emerald is working on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by GreenDimond » Sat Jun 23, 2018 20:59

Miss Micah wrote:Also nuh uh I wanna keep my gardens and Verdant and the new city Emerald is working on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GreenDimond wrote: Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Miss Micah » Sat Jun 23, 2018 21:21

GreenDimond wrote:
Miss Micah wrote:Also nuh uh I wanna keep my gardens and Verdant and the new city Emerald is working on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GreenDimond wrote: Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.


Oooooh
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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by random_geek » Sat Jun 23, 2018 21:34

GreenDimond wrote:In all honesty, I wouldn't be sad if we did a complete reset.

New seed, new spawn, everything.

And yes, I know a lot of work has already gone in to trying to restore the map. But I still feel like a completely fresh start isn't a horrible idea. Any builds that people have saved can be WorldEdited in.

If we reset completely, we could automatically generate the main north-south-east-west roads so EDad doesn't have to build them himself, and also adjust the protection system at spawn so it isn't a wild land-grab.

Now, I also realize that ExeterDad, Kibbie, and family, all worked very hard for a long time to build spawn, so I suppose a new spawn is probably not the best idea.

I don't know, maybe it's a stupid idea. I have those sometimes :)


I wouldn't get rid of the existing spawn area. It probably took a long time to make, as well as having meaning and significance (being based on an actual town). I like the seed we have, but that's a weak argument. One real advantage to keeping the seed is it would allow for existing saved buildings to be added easily where they already were (if desired).
I do like the idea in general, as it would be simpler and would eliminate the inevitability of half-standing buildings and choppy landscapes. I don't think it's going to happen, but I support it if there is any possibilty.
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by micheal65536 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 21:59

All of these are raw, unplayed downloads. The dates and times in the filenames are the actual date and time that the download took place. All times are GMT/BST.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F0xF_Y ... sp=sharing
 

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Re: [Server] HOMETOWN

by Miss Micah » Sat Jun 23, 2018 22:10

Soooo no rush or anything or pressure but uh....When do you think the server will be up?
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