Iron WAY too uncommon.

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Innomen
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Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Innomen » Post

I don't know where you guys are hiding it but I have flooded and explored like 10 cave systems and haven't found a single deposit of iron.

Can someone tell me a reliable specific way of finding iron?

Edit: I propose someone add black sand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sand

Could be a good way to put iron and other things on the surface.

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Linuxdirk
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Linuxdirk » Post


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duane
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by duane » Post

Innomen wrote:Could be a good way to put iron and other things on the surface.
You could always use this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20589
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Innomen » Post

So tryhards ruined iron. /facepalm I wish these people would just build floggers and go beat themselves in private instead of trying to make everything more dystopian.

Thanks for the head's up. Guess I don't get iron unless I cheat.
duane wrote:
Innomen wrote:Could be a good way to put iron and other things on the surface.
You could always use this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20589
That's way too immersion breaking and unrealistic for me. It's bad enough that I can carry tons of stone and sand. Thanks though, it is a solution.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Linuxdirk » Post

Innomen wrote:So tryhards ruined iron
Balancing is hard when you have to balance a system you do not use on a regular basis. Most core-devs do not play Minetest the same way most players do and thus are very biased resulting in very off-center balancing. This is nothing to blame the devs for it's just how it is. The only thing one could blame the devs for is that they think they know how to properly balance the game and thus ignore lots of the criticism on balancing.
Innomen wrote:Thanks for the head's up. Guess I don't get iron unless I cheat.
Or just go deeper. It becomes quite easy below -300 or so because giant caves several 100 nodes deep are generated even with default mgv7 settings.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by jas » Post

I made this little mod to add more iron, and also get it from gravel. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22684

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Innomen » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Innomen wrote:So tryhards ruined iron
Balancing is hard when you have to balance a system you do not use on a regular basis. Most core-devs do not play Minetest the same way most players do and thus are very biased resulting in very off-center balancing. This is nothing to blame the devs for it's just how it is. The only thing one could blame the devs for is that they think they know how to properly balance the game and thus ignore lots of the criticism on balancing.
Innomen wrote:Thanks for the head's up. Guess I don't get iron unless I cheat.
Or just go deeper. It becomes quite easy below -300 or so because giant caves several 100 nodes deep are generated even with default mgv7 settings.
Ahhh ok, I misunderstood the depth numbers. I sort of rage tunneled straight down and found some iron pretty quick. Basically I was moving the decimal point mentally and expecting it to be 10x deeper than it was. It's still pretty immersion breaking to have to go to such depths FWIW.

Edit: I think the issue with iron is the depth, not the rarity. At depths where it occurs it's plenty abundant. But getting to it initially is a bigger hurdle than I expect was intended.

Sidenote: Not much reason to explore the surface at all feels like when you know for a fact nothing better than coal is gonna be found except for the occasional dungeon.
jas wrote:I made this little mod to add more iron, and also get it from gravel. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22684
This is an awesome solution path, I have some thoughts I'll post there. (Extractinator.)

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by duane » Post

Innomen wrote:Sidenote: Not much reason to explore the surface at all feels like when you know for a fact nothing better than coal is gonna be found except for the occasional dungeon.
I think the point of the change was that people felt there wasn't much reason to mine when iron could be had just below sea level.

Personally, I put a lot of ruins in my game that I can scavange for minerals. I also changed the ore system to distribute ores at no particular depth -- It's just much easier to find coal than iron anywhere you happen to be. I did that mostly to accomodate extra worlds at all different levels, but it works better for me in general.
Linuxdirk wrote:Most core-devs do not play Minetest the same way most players do and thus are very biased resulting in very off-center balancing. This is nothing to blame the devs for it's just how it is. The only thing one could blame the devs for is that they think they know how to properly balance the game and thus ignore lots of the criticism on balancing.
It seems to me that the developers consider the minetest default game to be an irritant. They want people to develop lots of games, so they can focus on developing the engine -- and besides, one game will never suit everyone. As long as everyone is focused on the default, that's not going to happen.
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Innomen » Post

duane wrote:I think the point of the change was that people felt there wasn't much reason to mine when iron could be had just below sea level.
Forcing players is a bad idea imo when you can invite them instead.
Personally, I put a lot of ruins in my game that I can scavange for minerals.
How do I increase the number of ruins in my worlds? What is a good amount to increase it by in your opinion? It would be interesting to model earth +5000 years minus humanity. I can't help but think where the ruins come from.

What would one of our landfills look like in game terms after thousands of years of neglect? A gravel layer of some sort? Something like coal? Slag?

I like the solitary feeling of the world, reminds me of Blame!. I hope to see more urban decay and future worlds.

I'd also like a character system just so I can edit myself in some non-cheaty immersive atmospheric plausible way.

I would really like plausible reasons to have stuff I wish I had. That's probably why I like crafting games generally.
I also changed the ore system to distribute ores at no particular depth -- It's just much easier to find coal than iron anywhere you happen to be. I did that mostly to accomodate extra worlds at all different levels, but it works better for me in general.
That's how it should be imo in the base game, if it can't be geologically accurate. (Earth, pre-bronze age.) The earth's crust is constantly being mixed and with enough time energy and chemistry you can get pretty much anything out of sea water anyway.

Panning for gold being the ground floor example of heavy metals from water.
It seems to me that the developers consider the minetest default game to be an irritant. They want people to develop lots of games, so they can focus on developing the engine -- and besides, one game will never suit everyone. As long as everyone is focused on the default, that's not going to happen.
I really hope they aren't doing that on purpose because the much better approach is like browsers. Solid base, with tons of motivation (via enjoyment and enthusiasm and popularity) to develop plugins.

That's how I'm playing now.

Thank you for your replies, they were inspiring :)

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by duane » Post

Innomen wrote:How do I increase the number of ruins in my worlds?
In my case, I'm using a lua-based mapgen that I'm tinkering with, so probably not a good match for you. I can't think of any mods that do ruins with ore other than my flat_vm, which only works with the flat mapgen.
That's how it should be imo in the base game, if it can't be geologically accurate. (Earth, pre-bronze age.)
The ores are actually easy to do. Just go through minetest_game/mods/default/mapgen.lua and remove all the y_max entries in the ores. If that gives you too much ore, you might have to tweak the parameters a bit more, but that one change will give you all ore everywhere.
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paramat
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by paramat » Post

The new ore depths are far better for several reasons, make sure to read the PR https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2107
and the issues linked in the first post.
There has been a lot of correct criticism of how MTG is too easy and how it is lacking challenge.

"resulting in very off-center balancing"

What ever balance is created, some will dislike it, some will like it, there is no absolute optimum balance. Mods change what balance is suitable too.
If you don't like the balance of something that is just your opinion, and we're open to discussion and improving the game balance.

"The only thing one could blame the devs for is that they think they know how to properly balance the game and thus ignore lots of the criticism on balancing."

The core devs also, in some ways, understand the game more than anyone.

The core devs don't ignore any criticism on balancing, it is always considered. However, they may not agree and implement what is requested. But that is not 'ignoring', it is disagreeing.
Your accusation there is insulting and very negative, as well as completely untrue.

Note, extreme negativity, baseless accusations and ridiculous criticism of core devs is normal and common for Linuxdirk.

"It seems to me that the developers consider the minetest default game to be an irritant."

Well, i don't. But i agree that it's best people don't focus on MTG too much, as it's so constrained by it's history and by what depends on it being the way it is. We need new games, and i feel it's best the core devs do not spend all their extremely limited time on MTG when they could be creating far better new games.

"They want people to develop lots of games, so they can focus on developing the engine"

No, core devs want to create new games too, and some are doing so (i am). Also, the people most qualified to create new games are the core devs due to their understanding and experience.

"Forcing players is a bad idea imo when you can invite them instead."

Hmm? It's called 'challenge', challenge 'forces' players to do things.

"I really hope they aren't doing that on purpose"

Doing what?

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Innomen » Post

paramat wrote:(I'm a tryhard so I listen to tryhards, gitgud scrub.)
k

Edit: Unsubbed from thread fwiw, I have my answers.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by duane » Post

I applaud the developers' efforts, especially yours, Paramat... (from the sidelines). :)
Innomen wrote:
paramat wrote:(I'm a tryhard so I listen to tryhards, gitgud scrub.)
k

Edit: Unsubbed from thread fwiw, I have my answers.
Heh. You need to visit the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup boards. You'll get a whole new perspective:

"You newb! I got jumped by three red dragons on the first level. They killed my character, deleted my hard drive, mauled my face off, and burned down my house... And I liked it!"
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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Linuxdirk » Post

paramat wrote:"The only thing one could blame the devs for is that they think they know how to properly balance the game and thus ignore lots of the criticism on balancing."

The core devs also, in some ways, understand the game more than anyone.
This mindset is the exact thing I meant. Yes, the devs know a lot, if not most, of the game. But you can't deny that there are players out there actually playing the game more often than the devs. The devs should listen more to the players and be MUCH less dismissive against changes suggested by actual players. Some mods only exist because devs ignore the players - or as you would say: "consider but vote against".
paramat wrote:We need new games
But at the same time devs seem not to care about having a proper default game. There are plenty of good games that could be offered to players on first start. That needs change (something you and most other core devs against). Change in the client (offer a list of games on first start), change in the mindset ("devs are always right because they know Minetest the best" must be gone), and change in the code (do not develop most of the game in default mod and get rid of "Minetest Game" as an actually provided game but have it as optional modding base only).
paramat wrote:the people most qualified to create new games are the core devs due to their understanding and experience.
This is just not true. Yes, the devs know most of Minetest, but that doesn't mean they can create the best games. It's like saying that a Formula 1 mechanic is the best driver because he knows most of the car's engine.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Hugues Ross » Post

The new ore depths are far better for several reasons, make sure to read the PR https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2107
and the issues linked in the first post.
There has been a lot of correct criticism of how MTG is too easy and how it is lacking challenge.
So first of all, I only see a single argument in the PR (<mineral> is too easy to find), and I question why that even matters in the first place. Your argument seems to imply that the change was made to add challenge, so I'd like to ask you the following: What challenge actually emerges from having deeper ores in default?

In reality, there are very few ways to die or be blocked from progressing without installing mods. Moving ores deeper doesn't make the game harder, I'd argue instead that it just adds artificial padding to the progression.

Here's what I think, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong: You looked at the problem of players not making use of Minetest's massive underground, and decided to just force them to go deeper for resources instead of considering ways to make underground content interesting and attractive. I think the real problem here is that there's not enough content to make caves worth exploring, and default suffers from the classic PCG problem of content being spread too thin.

The natural response to this, of course, is that mods and games should fill that space. To some extent, I agree with that! But if that's the case, why not leave these sorts of adjustments to content creators instead? On its own, default can't easily sustain that sort of interest without additions.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by paramat » Post

Innomen wrote:
paramat wrote:(I'm a tryhard so I listen to tryhards, gitgud scrub.)
k

Edit: Unsubbed from thread fwiw, I have my answers.
Thanks for the false quote. I don't have a 'tryhard' attitude, MTGame is still extremely easy.
Iron starts at y = -128, you can often walk to y = -128 in a tunnel system without even digging, that's not 'tryhard'.
Ores should probably be even more difficult to reach, but because so much relies on MTGame the amount of change we can make is limited.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by paramat » Post

> The devs should listen more to the players and be MUCH less dismissive against changes suggested by actual players.

We do listen, every issue is read and considered, even though we are overwhelmed with issues and requests.
If we dismiss a request it's for a good explained reason.
My impression is that the MT core devs are generally very much driven by player's desires.

> devs seem not to care about having a proper default game. There are plenty of good games that could be offered to players on first start. That needs change (something you and most other core devs against).

No core dev is against this, we have discussed a lot about needing a more impressive game as the default. We just haven't found a game of sufficient quality yet, even though there are many interesting ones.

> change in the mindset ("devs are always right because they know Minetest the best" must be gone)

Devs are not always right, however the core devs make the decisions. By this you're actually suggesting that people other than the devs make the decisions if there is a disagreement.

> and change in the code (do not develop most of the game in default mod

We've been doing this for 1-2 years already. Any new content goes in a new mod if at all possible, note the explosion of MTGame mods. See the issues that express the need to not bloat default.

Again, most of what you write is untrue and excessively negative.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by paramat » Post

> So first of all, I only see a single argument in the PR (<mineral> is too easy to find)

I did write "make sure to read the PR ... and the issues linked in the first post.", because the ore changes were done for several reasons.

> What challenge actually emerges from having deeper ores in default?

The ore changes are not primarily about challenge, but deeper is more challenging obviously, even if you don't consier it quality challenge. It's more about not having them so ridiculously shallow, and to properly link depth to value and the corresponding tool abilities.

> You looked at the problem of players not making use of Minetest's massive underground, and decided to just force them to go deeper for resources instead of considering ways to make underground content interesting and attractive.

No, because you've missed all the MTGame issues that discuss how we desperately need to make the underground more interesting, which i agree with and have been adding new mapgen features to do so (underground decorations, biome-defined everything).
The changes to ore depths have nothing to do with makng good use of the underground.

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Re: Iron WAY too uncommon.

by Red_King_Cyclops » Post

Innomen wrote:I don't know where you guys are hiding it but I have flooded and explored like 10 cave systems and haven't found a single deposit of iron.

Can someone tell me a reliable specific way of finding iron?

Edit: I propose someone add black sand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sand

Could be a good way to put iron and other things on the surface.
Did you mean iron sand?
Currently working on new mods.

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