[Server] LinuxWorks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

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Re: Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by Byakuren » Wed Jan 24, 2018 23:02

Good job removing the cobble shop.
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Re: Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Fri Jan 26, 2018 08:42

Reminder: The Stallmangrad area is managed by Smacker, other people should not interfere except when advised so by Smacker.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Sun Jan 28, 2018 16:28

Due to recurrent griefing, the entire 99.203.*.* subnet has been banned in iptables.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by orwell » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:19

Some more screenshots:
+ Spoiler
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Thu Mar 01, 2018 21:16

Some interesting data from the atm account database:
Players: 1578
Gini : 0.96
Total : 1214983 Minegeld
Lowest 20%: <1%
20-40%: 1%
40-60%: 1%
60-80%: 1%
Richest20%: 97%
Richest 10: 84%
Richest : 46%

This shows that wealth is distributed extremely unequally on this server.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by nanepiwo » Thu Mar 01, 2018 22:44

Well, what if you filter out players that have under the baseline amount of money in the ATM? (aka only looking at people who actually continued to play)
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Sat Mar 03, 2018 21:36

Filtering out players with little money isn't going to change anything, it stays the same. Normalizing for time spent on the server might give more interesting results.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by orwell » Sun Mar 04, 2018 07:37

Hm, I keep my money inside a locked chest (as orrwell) because I don`t have an ATM nearby...
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by Felfalido » Sun Mar 04, 2018 09:16

orwell wrote:Hm, I keep my money inside a locked chest (as orrwell) because I don`t have an ATM nearby...

Submerged economy on the server!

Yeah, it happens the same for me. I have a safe to store some money from inventory because I'm too lazy to find an ATM near my home point.
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by h-v-smacker » Mon Mar 05, 2018 05:10

As I said earlier, there is no reason to engage in monetary transactions past a certain wealth level. Riches don't open new possibilities, they just allow to buy more of the same old basic stuff. Instead of 100 melon slices you now can buy 1000 whole melons... and then 10000 melons! What kind of progress is that!

At least now you can buy mbb's freight train set vehicles, that's a lucrative application for money IMO. Why Japanese trains, industrial locomotives, and other uncraftable wagons from default advtrains package are still not on sale is beyond me though. This is as close to a "car dealership" idea I previously expressed as it can possibly be.
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Mon Mar 05, 2018 17:13

The problem with economy is that we're essentially facing some big inflation, since money isn't worth much. The availability of Freight trains probably won't change much, I think we should think about some monetary reform that keeps money scarce (most income is not through sales, it is through basic income). Probably basic income should be removed, to rely on noobs instead for money supply (they would still get some starting capital).

My idea for a monetary reform: Change old Minegeld 1:1000 into New Minegeld (NMG), every player getting at least 100 NMG, though. Noobs would get 100 NMG as starting money, so they can buy stuff and create a fresh money supply. Otherwise, I'm open to pegging money to some non-renewable scarce resource, such as gold (or maybe bringing back the nyan cat), to resupply money while not paying excessive amounts.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by h-v-smacker » Tue Mar 06, 2018 00:20

gpcf wrote:The problem with economy is that we're essentially facing some big inflation, since money isn't worth much.


You misidentify the problem.

Inflation isn't a problem at all. You just demonstrated yourself that most of the monetary mass is excluded from circulation, just being stockpiled in several accounts. They don't influence the economy in the slightest no matter how large the sums may be. However, for the least wealthy players money is in very active circulation: they get it to acquire the resources they need in early game. They need it, they want to earn more, they spend it. Trust me, I sell the most mundane things in my shop, and even beds and bookshelves sell very well. For them, it works very well to that end, and a fresh player can find almost everything for reasonable prices. It's the problem with those who have tens of thousands of minegeld. They don't spend it, and therefore they don't cause inflation. And they don't spend it because there is nothing to spend it on.

Meanwhile, the number of fresh players on initial stages of development fluctuates around some constant value, and with it the amount of money in active circulation. Eventually those players either stop playing, or develop past "the threshold", in either way excluding their money from circulation.

In fact, I would say that inflation doesn't even exist on linuxworks. The prices at major shops have remained predominantly the same for as long as I remember. In fact, I have even lowered some due to increased industrial capabilities. I also hear people were lowering their seemingly reasonable prices because nobody was buying the goods with such a pricetag. This is quite the opposite of inflation.

The problem is that the economy doesn't provide any incentive for capital. There is no point in acquiring huge sums of money because they don't do anything special for you. And it's obvious that, given that advanced shops that make people rich are run by people with high industrial capabilities, there is no reason to waste time and effort on running such a shop. You basically turn yourself into an assembly worker for other players, for no gain at all. Everything you can buy with money you earn you already have yourself. Why make, say, a stack of autocrafters for sale when you can make them for yourself and your factories? It might even be faster to make them yourself than to go to a shop.

It doesn't even matter whether you can sell that stack but for pocket change, or make a fortune on it. You simply don't have anything special to buy with that money, no matter the price — there is nothing that you cannot get without using money.

It's profitable only for people early in the game, and they sell basic stuff (obviously). In fact, it's even crucial in the early stages. But for players past certain level, it's a question of fun, and that fun quickly runs out. Maybe there is excitement in running a shop for some people, but I reckon they are about as rare as those who honestly enjoy filling in tax forms.

The problem therefore is that wealthy people transgress monetary transactions altogether, making wealth not something to be sought, and therefore removing the incentives to actively participate in the economy except on the most pedestrian level.

gpcf wrote:My idea for a monetary reform: Change old Minegeld 1:1000 into New Minegeld (NMG), every player getting at least 100 NMG, though. Noobs would get 100 NMG as starting money, so they can buy stuff and create a fresh money supply. Otherwise, I'm open to pegging money to some non-renewable scarce resource, such as gold (or maybe bringing back the nyan cat), to resupply money while not paying excessive amounts.


It's a pointless thing if not harmful. You can make almost everything yourself in minetest, unlike in real life. If you cannot make something, you can find it in nature. If you had a choice of spending 1000 euros on a new computer, or to spend couple of days on assembling exactly the same computer yourself without somehow spending a dime, you wouldn't go to shops either. In real life, you need money not only because you don't have time to do it all yourself, but because you cannot possibly do it all yourself even if time was not an issue — almost anything valuable is far too complex to be a one-man-job. In minetest, on the other hand, everything is a one-man-job, and the only use for money (in the current situation) is to save yourself some time. At some point, there is no more reason to help people save their time at the expense of your time.

As for harmful, do you really think people would welcome an equivalent of Pavlov's reform? If anything, that would make money not only useless past a certain development level (yet very useful below it, mind!), but also unreliable: who would want to earn more of money that cannot buy anything exciting and which also can be taken away at any time? Better stockpile raw materials and produce, and improve your own production capabilities (you can trust me on that one, I've seen it myself in the 90-s IRL — you probably have no idea how to store potatoes through the winter, or why you would need a giant bag of sugar, or what does it look like when you make several buckets of currant into jam)!

You can manipulate current prices, make a single potato cost an equivalent of current monthly "basic income", and yet still the result would be the same, delayed at best. At worst, people would focus on self-sufficiency and barter, abandoning the monetary system altogether. Which, by the way, is the scenario I predict as most likely if your reform were to be implemented.

gpcf wrote:The availability of Freight trains probably won't change much, I think we should think about some monetary reform that keeps money scarce (most income is not through sales, it is through basic income). Probably basic income should be removed, to rely on noobs instead for money supply (they would still get some starting capital).


I don't know about you, I bought the whole set and two locomotives, and those were my first purchases IN MONTHS. And I intend to buy more, once I figure out how to make a rail connection to the industrial area while elegantly dealing with height difference of about a dozen meters between it and the entrance tunnel (as opposed to making a giant 30-block long subterranean funicular). For now I drive the blue shunters everywhere, toot the horn, and that's the best thing I could lay my hands on in the game in months.

The situation is presently (hopefully, temporarily) aggravated by the fact that currently only players with train_operator can couple and decouple wagons, so regular players cannot fully enjoy making their own trains, say, in mines. But when orwell devises a better privilege system, that issue would be gone, and said trains would provide a very interesting and compelling goal for earning money.

You don't need to make money scarce, or peg it to something. You need to make it as in real life, that some things can be gained only through earning money elsewhere — and earning something above "pocket change". Like in real life, you cannot make yourself a laptop, or a car, or probably not a pair of proper shoes or a warm coat. Or if you can make something from that list, which is very rare by itself, you won't have time or skills for the other items. Otherwise, you need to work for months to earn the sum you need and get the desired gift of industrial technology. Similarly, in the game, there should be something only capital has access to. I previously advocated cars from the likes of vehicles mod for that goal, if you recall, but that would be a burden to the server. Yet properly working un-craftable trains would work all the same. Maybe something else, like marine vehicles, or large construction cranes, or something like that.

Finally, I should mention that providing so-to-say "luxury" uncraftable items also compensates the increase of the monetary mass caused by basic income or influx of new players. It irreversibly removes the excess money away from the circulation, maintaining the balance. If anything, it's an antidote to inflation.
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Tue Mar 06, 2018 13:43

You've got a point. I think we'll try the luxury goods approach and we'll see how it works out. I will try to start selling trains in the next few days, with a price out of range of all but the richest players.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by cubestacker » Tue Mar 06, 2018 21:59

I could write the same like Smacker in his wonderful post, but not with that well-choosen words.

Two points are IMHO also important:
Some of the damage is already done - simply with the annoucement of a money reform/hyperinflation. Everyone with some knowledge what really happens in such a situation has started stockpiling expensive or rare items like the trains in the "Ministry of Transport" or ores and reduced the stock of items with expensive materials or even removed them from sale in own shops.

There is also the difference to the real world: in the real world you can not simply 'run away' in such a situation, you can not take (very) valueable things with you and/or there can be blocked borders. And you need food, at any cost or you die. In this game a player can stop comming to the server - all work with buildings etc. is lost, but a new start somewhere else does not depend of the amassed values on the old server, as there is obvoiusly no way to take them with you.



The problem with many idices (Gini index and others) is the massive reduction of information. I think the important point is how much money is in active circulation and probably then the situation would look totally different. For the economy on the server is it irrelevant if I have 100 MG or 100'000'000 MG, if I use per day only the money I earn by sales.


Like Smacker already wrote is an item interesting, which is only with money available, but expensive and with some practical or decorative use. To get the most money out of the players even auctions would be possible, eg. for the right to make a 'poster' item with a self choosen image, that is available only to the auction winner (for private use or for sale, in some quantities).
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:08

Auctions are also an interesting idea, we'd need to see how that works out. The monetary reforms are now canceled, since they probably won't work.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by whovian44 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 18:54

gpcf wrote:Auctions are also an interesting idea, we'd need to see how that works out. The monetary reforms are now canceled, since they probably won't work.

Why not just set up an admin store that sells things and make it so that the money gets auto deleted via pipework trashcan and itemwise injecter?
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by Pyrollo » Thu Mar 08, 2018 09:23

I'd love to come back on your server but the behavior of some players discouraged me for building anything. It's a pitty because this is a great server.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00

As the Emacs doctor says: Can you elaborate on that? What happened?
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by Pyrollo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 09:17

I think the problem comes from the easy ability to teleport to another player.

Each of the last times I connected, a player (always the same) teleported to me and played a kind of game that consists in being in front of me whatever I do.

As I connect to relax and build, this behavior made your server loose its interest.

I think the best way to avoid that would be to have a teleport request/accept system like in other servers. That would allow to just ignore annoying players.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by gpcf » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:18

Teleport is no longer granted to new players after a bad griefing incident which would have been impossible without teleport. This happened about a month ago.
 

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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by Felfalido » Sat Mar 10, 2018 13:54

The risk of griefing remains because any player w/o teleport priv can still teleport to anywhere using teleport pads or teleport flasks. Perhaps it needs another more complex craft recipe to avoid new players making use of them. At least they can no longer teleport to other players.
Last edited by Felfalido on Sat Mar 10, 2018 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by orwell » Sat Mar 10, 2018 18:16

Travelnet?
Or make teleport pads non-craftable
And the mod for the teleport requests is called tpr
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Re: [Server] Linuxworks Next Generation (Lots of trains)

by whovian44 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 18:58

i would not remove the teleporters because there still pretty expensive so most noobs can't get to them in an easy fashion
 

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