[Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

lightseer
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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by lightseer » Post

I am still stuck in the Master Series. There is a puzzle that requires a lot of fancy jumping. I go back and work on it from time to time, but I may never succeed. I don't know.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Post

lightseer wrote:I am still stuck in the Master Series. There is a puzzle that requires a lot of fancy jumping. I go back and work on it from time to time, but I may never succeed. I don't know.
I'm somewhat conflicted about giving people a "by" and let them past certain levels, but I doubt I'll ever change it.

I regularly get complaints from players that they can't reach content because they're "stuck" somewhere, often even in the tutorial. I spent a lot of time tuning the tutorial so that it is _not_ too difficult but does require some minimal skill, like being able to jump 2+ nodes and do a little bit of timing. Especially tutorial 4 and 8 contain these elements.

If I look at the data, it's entirely clear that the *jumps* in tutorial parts 4 and 8 are NOT preventing lots of players from completing the tutorial. As a matter of fact, almost everyone who finishes part #7 also finishes part #8. So the moving platforms with the added timing difficulty almost makes no difference in the amount of players that drop out, even though part #8 can be very frustrating if you fall down several times, as the maze underneath is confusing even with the arrows.

I really can't sell myself that lowering the difficulty or giving players a "pass this level" card once in a while is a good way to make the game more enjoyable. The amount of drop-outs that would happen if such a mechanism would exist is largely a lot larger than what we have right now. If you doubt me, check reviews of games that were nerfed in difficulty.

The server was designed with a certain atmosphere and difficulty from the start, and not as something that would evolve over time into something completely different. Had that been the case, we'd probably have to spend a lot more time to figure out what attracts players, keeps them coming back, etc.. As it stands, I spent a lot of time *in advance* thinking and designing the game around those concepts, and then sticking to it.

This will only make you enjoy the moment when you *do* get past that difficult level .. so much more. And future players will be able to enjoy it exactly as you did, including frustration and emerging victoriously after trying forever.

lightseer
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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by lightseer » Post

sofar wrote:
lightseer wrote:I am still stuck in the Master Series. There is a puzzle that requires a lot of fancy jumping. I go back and work on it from time to time, but I may never succeed. I don't know.
I'm somewhat conflicted about giving people a "by" and let them past certain levels, but I doubt I'll ever change it.

I regularly get complaints from players that they can't reach content because they're "stuck" somewhere, often even in the tutorial. I spent a lot of time tuning the tutorial so that it is _not_ too difficult but does require some minimal skill, like being able to jump 2+ nodes and do a little bit of timing. Especially tutorial 4 and 8 contain these elements.

If I look at the data, it's entirely clear that the *jumps* in tutorial parts 4 and 8 are NOT preventing lots of players from completing the tutorial. As a matter of fact, almost everyone who finishes part #7 also finishes part #8. So the moving platforms with the added timing difficulty almost makes no difference in the amount of players that drop out, even though part #8 can be very frustrating if you fall down several times, as the maze underneath is confusing even with the arrows.

I really can't sell myself that lowering the difficulty or giving players a "pass this level" card once in a while is a good way to make the game more enjoyable. The amount of drop-outs that would happen if such a mechanism would exist is largely a lot larger than what we have right now. If you doubt me, check reviews of games that were nerfed in difficulty.

The server was designed with a certain atmosphere and difficulty from the start, and not as something that would evolve over time into something completely different. Had that been the case, we'd probably have to spend a lot more time to figure out what attracts players, keeps them coming back, etc.. As it stands, I spent a lot of time *in advance* thinking and designing the game around those concepts, and then sticking to it.

This will only make you enjoy the moment when you *do* get past that difficult level .. so much more. And future players will be able to enjoy it exactly as you did, including frustration and emerging victoriously after trying forever.
Well no. I am not asking for a free pass. :) Eventually I will get it.

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Singleplayer Release

by rubenwardy » Post

Singleplayer Release

I'd like to see this released as a singleplayer game which downloads boxes and series using the HTTP API.

Doing this would allow players to play the game offline. Using a HTTP API rather than including the boxes with the game means that you avoid fragmentation of work effort - all the created boxes can be uploaded to one central location, reviewed, then made available for everyone.

I imagine this would be quite a lot of work, however. You'd also need to rewrite any mods that require sqlite or wire into your server.

I can see this being included as a default game if this is achieved. This game is something that shows that Minetest is more versatile than just a MC ripoff engine.
In any case, simply releasing the source code would allow us to promote the game on the website

Misc Criticisms

Overall I love the amount of polish and work that has gone into this.
  • The consoles are distracting in that they stand out. When I first saw one, I expected it to be part of the puzzle in some way. You should hide them in any boxes which don't use them for an actual purpose. If they can be used as part of the puzzle, they should be introduced in the tutorial properly. If they are just for textual help, you should introduce that when you first open it - ie: add a dialog
  • I found Tutorial pt 6 very difficult, as the behaviour of buttons isn't predictable. It doesn't just toggle, or put all pistons to one state. Not sure how to solve this
  • I suggest creating a white marble theme for the GUI, to match the game more
  • I like the path to the nexus, it's pretty cool. Well done.

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Re: Singleplayer Release

by GreenXenith » Post

rubenwardy wrote:I found Tutorial pt 6 very difficult, as the behaviour of buttons isn't predictable. It doesn't just toggle, or put all pistons to one state. Not sure how to solve this
It is quite predictable. They do put all connected pistons into one state. Different switches are just connected to different pistons, or maybe even 2 switches to the same piston. They work exactly as intended.
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Re: Singleplayer Release

by v-rob » Post

rubenwardy wrote:

Singleplayer Release

I'd like to see this released as a singleplayer game which downloads boxes and series using the HTTP API.

Doing this would allow players to play the game offline. Using a HTTP API rather than including the boxes with the game means that you avoid fragmentation of work effort - all the created boxes can be uploaded to one central location, reviewed, then made available for everyone.

I imagine this would be quite a lot of work, however. You'd also need to rewrite any mods that require sqlite or wire into your server.

I can see this being included as a default game if this is achieved. This game is something that shows that Minetest is more versatile than just a MC ripoff engine.
In any case, simply releasing the source code would allow us to promote the game on the website
*Sigh* Another person who hasn't read many comments about the release of the source code. 100 boxes is how many need to be accepted before the source code will be released.
rubenwardy wrote:

Misc Criticisms

Overall I love the amount of polish and work that has gone into this.
  • The consoles are distracting in that they stand out. When I first saw one, I expected it to be part of the puzzle in some way. You should hide them in any boxes which don't use them for an actual purpose. If they can be used as part of the puzzle, they should be introduced in the tutorial properly. If they are just for textual help, you should introduce that when you first open it - ie: add a dialog
  • I found Tutorial pt 6 very difficult, as the behaviour of buttons isn't predictable. It doesn't just toggle, or put all pistons to one state. Not sure how to solve this
  • I suggest creating a white marble theme for the GUI, to match the game more
  • I like the path to the nexus, it's pretty cool. Well done.
  • Terminals are great. People just need to realize how to type help. Plus, they are used in some levels as important design elements.
  • It is predictable, but it takes a while to figure it out. Press the buttons randomly enough, and they will eventually end up in the correct order.
  • Yes, I agree. The default_gui texture is really ugly. It should either be removed or replaced with a better texture. Plus, only the inventory has it, and not the terminal formspec, clear box formspec, or landscape formspec. It should stay consistent.
  • Nearly everything in Inside the Box is cool.
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Re: Singleplayer Release

by sofar » Post

v-rob wrote:*Sigh* Another person who hasn't read many comments about the release of the source code. 100 boxes is how many need to be accepted before the source code will be released.
I think that's an unfair statement. Rubenwardy is right that having the source code posted would really help, and it's also right that I said that I would post the source code once we reach 100 player submitted boxes. I don't think that rubewardy hasn't read the discussion until now, and I know he's well aware of how I've ran the project until now.

I might release the source code before we reach 100 boxes, though. I've kind of made a point for myself to not let it go past the one year mark either, but I'd really like to see us make the 100 boxes mark instead, just because I think it would be the most fun if we can keep adding new boxes. Rubenwardy certainly agrees that having more boxes is beneficial, and in the long run some of the suggestions he proposed could very well be added, after all when the source code is freely available, people could send pull requests and add the features needed.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by rubenwardy » Post

Frankly, I think the 100 requirement is just a ransom. It also doesn't make sense to have if you use a central store, there's a lot less risk of fragmentation of available boxes then. The 100 requirement was only so itb becomes the only viable server to play the game on, and so any new content is created there. I have read all the comments in this topic and would appreciate if you were less condescending.

Sure, terminals are god's gift to earth. But in a game it makes sense to remove things that aren't needed and it makes sense in a tutorial to introduce mechanics well. It's not about typing help, it's about wasting my time realising there's nothing actually important in them. Having terminals everywhere also desensitises you to them meaning when they are actually used you ignore them

I realised which switches connected to what pretty quickly, must have just gotten confused and eliminated the second type of behaviour wrongly

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by lightseer » Post

lightseer wrote:I am still stuck in the Master Series. There is a puzzle that requires a lot of fancy jumping. I go back and work on it from time to time, but I may never succeed. I don't know.
By the way I did get unstuck and got to the top of the puzzle. I missed the last jump a few times and then....lost connection! Oh noes! So its not on the board, yet; but my jumping skills are better.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Gael de Sailly » Post

There hasn't been any new box on the past 2-3 weeks. Are there some ones coming soon? I'm a bit bored...
I've completed all the boxes except GreenDimond's Snowland Fortress.
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by GreenXenith » Post

I was working on a box - progress on that is halted at the moment to make room for other things. I will return to making boxes sometimes next week or the week after (I hope).
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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Gael de Sailly » Post

I'd like to build boxes too bot for now I don't have enough ideas and motivation, and my building skills are not the bests.
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

Can u give me the world file and the changes in the coding so i can try a few things?(more mods, breakable blocks, etc.)
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

I found a secret pedestal in a mini-biome! It is in the forest mini-biome North-west of the lobby. It has a sign on it, but I can't get close enough to read it. Leaves and trees are blocking my way.

Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to put an image in a post so I can't show you. :(
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Post

Christian_Soldier wrote:Can u give me the world file and the changes in the coding so i can try a few things?(more mods, breakable blocks, etc.)
the code will be made available soon enough, just hang on until I announce it. meanwhile, you can share your ideas and we can consider them. You can also file a tracker issue on github (check for `feedback` on the server website).

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Post

Christian_Soldier wrote:I found a secret pedestal in a mini-biome! It is in the forest mini-biome North-west of the lobby. It has a sign on it, but I can't get close enough to read it. Leaves and trees are blocking my way.
There is a way to get to the center. It's another puzzle.

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by v-rob » Post

sofar wrote:
Christian_Soldier wrote:I found a secret pedestal in a mini-biome! It is in the forest mini-biome North-west of the lobby. It has a sign on it, but I can't get close enough to read it. Leaves and trees are blocking my way.
There is a way to get to the center. It's another puzzle.
I was wondering what the sign was for. Last time I checked, it was empty.
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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

sofar wrote:
Christian_Soldier wrote:Can u give me the world file and the changes in the coding so i can try a few things?(more mods, breakable blocks, etc.)
the code will be made available soon enough, just hang on until I announce it. meanwhile, you can share your ideas and we can consider them. You can also file a tracker issue on github (check for `feedback` on the server website).
ok, thanks.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

sofar wrote:
Christian_Soldier wrote:I found a secret pedestal in a mini-biome! It is in the forest mini-biome North-west of the lobby. It has a sign on it, but I can't get close enough to read it. Leaves and trees are blocking my way.
There is a way to get to the center. It's another puzzle.
I tried to go on top of the trees, but that doesn't work...
Maybe there's a secret switch or button in one of the other mini-biomes.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

v-rob wrote:I was wondering what the sign was for. Last time I checked, it was empty.
You can only see what a sign says when you are close to it.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Kroukuk » Post

I was wondering what the sign was for. Last time I checked, it was empty.
I'm wondering if there is a nexus for this pedestal :D

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

Kroukuk wrote: I'm wondering if there is a nexus for this pedestal :D
I wondered the same thing...and I also did find a peculiar hole in the icey mountain biome. it's where the stream starts from. I can't find anything else though.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

I found the way to get to the secret pedestal!!! I tried to read the sign, but there's nothing on it. Now I just can't figure out how to get a Nexus here to use it.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by v-rob » Post

Christian_Soldier wrote:
v-rob wrote:I was wondering what the sign was for. Last time I checked, it was empty.
You can only see what a sign says when you are close to it.
I did get close to it. There's nothing on it. I've also scoured the nexus for a nexus block, but I can't find one.
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Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Christian_Soldier » Post

v-rob wrote:
Christian_Soldier wrote:
v-rob wrote:I was wondering what the sign was for. Last time I checked, it was empty.
You can only see what a sign says when you are close to it.
I did get close to it. There's nothing on it. I've also scoured the nexus for a nexus block, but I can't find one.
Maybe there's a secret switch or something in another place. or there might be a level(box) where you can get an extra nexus so you can use it on the secret pedestal.
plz see my map from The Stanley Parable. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19944&p=0&e=0

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