[Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

User avatar
azekill_DIABLO
Member
 
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 20:05
Location: Pixelator
GitHub: azekillDIABLO
In-game: azekill_DIABLO
 

User avatar
TumeniNodes
Member
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 19:49
Location: in the dark recesses of the mind
GitHub: TumeniNodes
IRC: tumeninodes
In-game: TumeniNodes

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by TumeniNodes » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:07

Relax guys, the code has not even been released/shared yet.
I would feel safe believing those "certain conditions" will most likely be accrediting the work and posting a link, etc..

I am not stating this will be the case, nor am I an official spokesperson or anything, this is just based on a gut feeling.
 

User avatar
azekill_DIABLO
Member
 
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 20:05
Location: Pixelator
GitHub: azekillDIABLO
In-game: azekill_DIABLO
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: :-(

by sofar » Sun Sep 17, 2017 18:01

Wuzzy wrote:Boo!


The statement that stuff is copyrighted and has a license that may or may not give you additional rights is entirely correct. This is exactly what open source software licenses do. Nothing to "boo" about. This statement even applies to software covered under the MIT license, or artwork under a CC-BY license.

I don't know what you are booing about, then.
 

User avatar
v-rob
Member
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 03:19

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by v-rob » Sun Sep 17, 2017 23:02

Yes, it DOES matter.

Texture conflicts and seams in the glass when it touches something else: (More prominent when you are moving.)

Image

One other problem: There aren't enough boxes yet, and I finished all of them. :(
Attachments
screenshot_20170917_155102.png
(39.47 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I dislike huge mods, but incomplete mods or mods that could use touching up are even worse.
I don't like playing Minetest as much as I like modding it.
The keyboard sequence to remove all bugs: Ctrl + A, Ctrl + X, Ctrl + S, Alt + F4
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 00:10

v-rob wrote:Yes, it DOES matter.

Texture conflicts and seams in the glass when it touches something else: (More prominent when you are moving.)


This is an engine problem. Please report this to the minetest engine project.

v-rob wrote:One other problem: There aren't enough boxes yet, and I finished all of them. :(


You can solve this by making new boxes. Once you finish the tutorial, you are given the permissions and tools to make them and share them with all the other players!
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Wuzzy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 02:38

The wording of that texts sounds like everything is copyrighted 100% and nobody is allowed to do anything unless with someone's explicit permission. Since this flies in the face of the whole idea of Minetest, that's a very good reason to boo about. Maybe it's just a bad wording / misunderstanding.

The wording could be more explicit. Just saying that “stuff is copyrighted” isn't really informative. I hope you are using libre licenses, also including for all the media? If not, then it might be illegal to post screenshots or even post Let's Play videos on e.g. YouTube and similar websites.
I'm creating MineClone 2, a Minecraft clone for Minetest. I made the Help modpack, adding in-game help to Minetest.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Public Service Announcement

by Wuzzy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 03:00

Public Service Announcement
You can enter any box with the “/enter” server command. Just type in “/enter <box number>” into the chat or console.

Here is the complete list of all playable boxes I found with numbers 0-200, sorted by name, as of September 18, 2017:

  • 88: Acme Lava
  • 120: A forgotten box
  • 51: A house in the woods
  • 80: Castle
  • 95: Courtyard
  • 87: Earthquake
  • 8: Gasp! Don't fall!
  • 6: Hop Scotch
  • 86: Lava Park
  • 78: Lily Pond
  • 5: mystery cave
  • 25: Never odd or even
  • 15: Old men don't sleep
  • 10: Once upon a fall
  • 117: One one seven
  • 2: See through maze
  • 3: Smallbox
  • 4: Spring birds
  • 59: Sunset of a world
  • 40: There Snow Way Out
  • 28: The Ruins
  • 32: The Siege
  • 56: Think beyond the surface!
  • 14: Tutorial - part 1
  • 17: Tutorial - part 2
  • 19: Tutorial - part 3
  • 24: Tutorial - part 4
  • 20: Tutorial - part 5
  • 16: Tutorial - part 6
  • 27: Tutorial - part 7
  • 29: Tutorial - part 8
  • 22: Underground
  • 114: UP
  • 76: Volcano
  • 23: Waterproof
  • 101: Yet Another Box.
  • 44: You're Screwed!
  • 7: You wouldn't want to dig it, would you?

The other box numbers are currently unavailable. The highest available box number so far is 120.

E.g. by typing in “/enter 4” you will go to Spring birds.

IMPORTANT: “/enter” does not work if you're already in a box or you haven't completed the tutorial yet.
You can leave a box by opening your inventory and clicking on “Leave this box”.

Also, this list may become outdated as I'm sure more levels will be added.
I'm creating MineClone 2, a Minecraft clone for Minetest. I made the Help modpack, adding in-game help to Minetest.
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 16:11

Wuzzy wrote:The wording of that texts sounds like everything is copyrighted 100% and nobody is allowed to do anything unless with someone's explicit permission.


The wording is exact and 100% correct. You are assuming way, way too much.

And no, you can't just take something from a video game and reuse it. You can't even do that with most server content.[*this would take too long to elaborate here, but let's just say that non-enforcement is not a legal argument]

The wording could be more explicit. Just saying that “stuff is copyrighted” isn't really informative. I hope you are using libre licenses, also including for all the media? If not, then it might be illegal to post screenshots or even post Let's Play videos on e.g. YouTube and similar websites.


The music license is visible in the game (visit the credits gallery). More detailed license information of the sound effects will become available once we publish the source code with all the assets. The texture pack is actually Public Domain (also visible in the credits gallery). Some custom textures are CC-BY-SA or similar. And yes, this may have an effect on people attempting to monetize videos, and it should have, for very good reasons.

The wording of the warning is *spot on* to warn you that you may have to research by yourself that you may need to get permission or do things like properly attribute someone. This isn't confusing at all, it is actually telling you that we'll help you to figure it out if you have questions about it, and that you bear a large responsibility yourself to make sure you're doing it right.

The main reason project code is not yet published yet is that we're doing a security audit to make sure that everything is nice and tight before opening the code up. We spent over 9 months working on this project and it's not worth releasing it prematurely and find out someone can just wreck the server in 5 seconds. So, give us a bit of time to finish that.

We're not only putting in a lot of time in this project, we also put in real money. The server costs both money and significant amount of time to secure and operate. This commitment can be enjoyed by you (as you already have, by playing on it) for free, and I don't see anything wrong with telling you that you need to do your due diligence if you want to re-use or distribute parts of it. That's not only fair, it also assures that the people who did do the actual work in creating the artwork and code get the credits they deserve.

Cheers, and happy puzzle solving!
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: Public Service Announcement

by sofar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 16:19

Wuzzy wrote:Here is the complete list of all playable boxes I found with numbers 0-200, sorted by name, as of September 18, 2017:


Cool, thanks for posting this!

We've been getting about 3-5 new boxes every week. People have been playing with the creation system for a while now, and there's usually 2-3 people building on the server, so this list is going to get outdated fast.

We have been working on ideas and code to make this a bit easier to do in-game. All the boxes can be played by playing one of the "series". Right now there are 3 series in the game:

1. The Tutorial - you already know this. It's required, you need to finish this before you can build or play the other series.
2. The Master Series - these are the best and hardest puzzle boxes we've found.
3. The New Series - all newly accepted boxes that pass our review go in this series.

You can find these all in the "play" section in the lobby, of course.

In the future, I want to add some way to get access to the lists and being able to go into any box other than through the series, but for frequent players, hopping on the Series Teleports is the easiest way to see if there's new stuff to explore and solve.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Wuzzy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 16:41

The music license is visible in the game (visit the credits gallery). More detailed license information of the sound effects will become available once we publish the source code with all the assets.

The credits gallery is invislble until you completed 8 (!) levels. I basically suggested to make all credits/licencing info more visible to everyone. But now that I know this is WIP, there's no rush.

The wording of the warning is *spot on* to warn you that you may have to research by yourself that you may need to get permission or do things like properly attribute someone.

Well, I hope the credits and license stuff will be completed one day. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get permission or give correct attribution if you don't even know the authors. ;-)

But since I now know that this thing is still WIP, I'll be less harsh with you now. Sorry. I think I just wait now and see what happens. Take your time.

Do I understand you right that you *do* want to eventually release Inside The Box as free software under free software license(s)?
Do you already have particular licenses in mind?

And no, you can't just take something from a video game and reuse it.

Well first, you always can, it's just not always legal. ;-)
If the game is free software, you actually can legally (I have not a problem with attribution).
Sorry, but I see Minetest as a big free software community, so I have every right to be such a dick about it. :D





In the future, I want to add some way to get access to the lists and being able to go into any box other than through the series, but for frequent players, hopping on the Series Teleports is the easiest way to see if there's new stuff to explore and solve.

Yeah, that would be great. The simplest idea would probably be a chat command “/list” to list all available box numbers and their title (basically what I did in my post). Not the ideal solution, of course, I'm sure you have better ideas.




PS: Why do all people say “assets” to game media / data files? Such a weird word …
I'm creating MineClone 2, a Minecraft clone for Minetest. I made the Help modpack, adding in-game help to Minetest.
 

User avatar
azekill_DIABLO
Member
 
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 20:05
Location: Pixelator
GitHub: azekillDIABLO
In-game: azekill_DIABLO

Re: Public Service Announcement

by azekill_DIABLO » Mon Sep 18, 2017 16:43

Wuzzy wrote:You can enter any box with the “/enter” server command. Just type in “/enter <box number>” into the chat or console.

Here is the complete list of all playable boxes I found with numbers 0-200, sorted by name, as of September 18, 2017:......



and my box 59?

EDIT: box 59 works too! was probably added after your post...


@SOFAR: when i play the NEW series, i always go on mystery cave by prios. Tried like 8 times this last days and still same. Even if my box has been added after, i can't see it. it's not i wont like his box, but having to play it every time :|
Last edited by azekill_DIABLO on Mon Sep 18, 2017 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by sofar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 17:01

Wuzzy wrote:Do I understand you right that you *do* want to eventually release Inside The Box as free software under free software license(s)?
Do you already have particular licenses in mind?


yep, the main github repo will be all OSS.

The code (which includes a few minor parts of minetest_game) will be LGPL-2.1 for those reused parts, and MIT-like for the new code, so, fully reusable by other projects. E.g. the skybox and frame mod is LGPL-2.1, etc. Most of the artwork is CC-BY, CC-BY-SA.

Wuzzy wrote:The simplest idea would probably be a chat command “/list” to list all available box numbers and their title (basically what I did in my post). Not the ideal solution, of course, I'm sure you have better ideas.


I'd like to not provide/force many chat commands to users, especially for "playing" on the server, it should all be through interaction with the world as much as possible.

We've floated several ideas around, and we'll probably get to adding some of them soon:

- When you've completed a series, the series teleport pad currently shows you a "Do you want to restart this series from the start" form. I want to change this so that you can see all the parts in the series, and then select a random one at any time - but perhaps only for boxes in the series that you have previously completed.

- The various terminals around the lobby are also capable of showing lists and therefore we can add an interface to this to allow browsing of boxes and displaying more box info. We have a lot of info on boxes in the backend database, but none of that is used yet, so, there is a lot of work here to be done as well to expose it. After all, we want box builders to be able to get review data for their boxes as well. In the same way, the score boards also need implementation, too.
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: Public Service Announcement

by sofar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 17:09

azekill_DIABLO wrote:When i play the NEW series, i always go on mystery cave by prios. Tried like 8 times this last days and still same. Even if my box has been added after, i can't see it. it's not i wont like his box, but having to play it every time :|


Looks like we either have a bug, and it's not recording your progress in the 'new' series, or you are never completing box 5?
 

User avatar
azekill_DIABLO
Member
 
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 20:05
Location: Pixelator
GitHub: azekillDIABLO
In-game: azekill_DIABLO

Re: Public Service Announcement

by azekill_DIABLO » Mon Sep 18, 2017 17:11

sofar wrote:or you are never completing box 5?

Hum. *cough* errh... hm, nope.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

My review of Inside The Box on September 19, 2017

by Wuzzy » Tue Sep 19, 2017 19:13

I think it is I start to talk about the gameplay itself:

This is a very enjoyable game/server and obviously has already seen a ton of polish. I appreciate very much the amount of work which has already been put into this.

I really hope this game will be released as standalone free software sooner or later. It would be a shame if one day the server just shuts down and is gone for good.

The gameplay is simple, but there are a few gotchas (see below). The tutorial is quite long (maybe too long) with 8 non-trivial levels (see below).
Anyway, the gameplay as such is well-designed overall. There aren't any really innovative components, but those few components do their job very well. It seems that almost all ideas were borrowed from Minetest Game or Mesecons. That's not actually bad.
Most components are simple and they work well, so I don't have much else to say.

I want to highlight only one particular component: Terminals. I don't like terminals. Or more precisely: How they are interacted with. They are too inconvenient to use. For players, the only 2 relevant commands are “list” and “read”, the other commands never work.
This simplicity might as well have been implemented with clickable buttons and/or textlist. The reason why I complain is that the in-game terminals annoy me because it breaks the gameplay flow if you have to type in stuff, it would be more convenient if you can interact with terminals only by clicking. Yes, that's not how terminals work in real life but who cares? xD

The game atmosphere is very good. A lot of blocks are emitting sounds (even leaves!) which is very cool. Ambience is a thing which many subgames are lacking, I guess also partially because of missing engine support. Do you care to explain how you managed to make nodes emit sounds reliably? AFAIK Minetest does not natively support “sound-emitting nodes” yet and all mods I've seen so far have their problems or are too complex (like the fire mod from Minetest Game).

The box/level design is good or very good in general. I had a lot of fun going through the various boxes. I'm sad the number is limited at the moment. :-(
I see there was quite a lot of thoughtwork put into it.
I have only very little to complain here.

The worst box was box 101. This box is just a punishment. xD Seriously, please delete it.
The best box was … hmm, that's quite hard. A lot of boxes are very good. If I have a clear favourite, I'll post again.
The hardest box was box 120.
The award for most clever box design goes to box 25.
The award for the best troll goes to …
+ Spoiler


Minor annoyances I do not want to see in box level design:
- Low invisible box ceiling in which you bang your head. Example: mystery cave. Solution: Higher ceiling unless there is absolutely no other way
- Poor writing, spelling and grammar (sadly, there are a couple of boxes with poor writing)
- Too much writing on the walls if it's not really neccessary

I recognize the library and the possibility to create levels, but I won't use it at the moment, so I don't comment on it. First, I don't have ideas and don't want to create levels at the moment and second, I don't want to risk my work disappear into nothingness when you shutdown the (currently) only server for good.

The level selection is quite messy at the moment. The Master Series has overlap with the mini temples, which is why I don't like the Matster Series. ster Series: You'll just repeat many levels you already played. Note I first played the levels in the strange mini temples first before. Master Series sounds difficult so I saved this for the end.
Ironically, the most convenient way to access levels is “/enter”.
The strange mini temples with strange symbols and smiley faces on them: I don't know what they're for, the levels seem random. There are even some tutorial levels in them. This seems wrong. o_O

Overall, I think the level selection needs a complete overhaul and simplification. Currently, it's a bit weird and chaotic.

I have found some gotchas (surprising game rules not covered in tutorials):
- You can actually open wooden doors and trapdoors by hand
- You can sometimes take items from item frames
- You have to open your inventory to leave a box

I found out the 2nd gotcha by pure luck and the 1st gotcha prevented me from completing box 8 “Gasp! Don't fall!” at first try because I did not know you can actually open the wooden … thing at the end! I thought it was an immovable barrier. ARGH! Yes, this IS surprising although I know Minetest Game pretty well. This is because I became so used to the fact that most blocks are just decorative and/or barriers. I eventually figured it out after playing levels with regular wooden doors.


I'm afraid the tutorial is locking many players out from the other levels, it's pretty long and some levels are not easy and more of medium difficulty, actually. There are levels in the regular series which are much easier than the tutorial levels.
Tutorials in games are not supposed to be challenging. Since the tutorial is forced, this is a problem.

The tutorial levels as such are good and I would not throw them away. But I might move some of the tricker tutorial levels to the regular series and add much simpler and shorter replacements into the tutorial.


Suggestions:
- Make it possible to select any level (without /enter) as a primary way to select levels.
- After completing a level and stepping on the “exit” teleporter, teleport player to the “Play” island instead of “The Nexus” so the player doesn't have to walk so much
- Grant the zoom privilege to all. It will be so useful for large boxes.
- Track which boxes the player completed and make this info visible
- Add a way to restart a box. There are boxes with a point of no return (impossible to win, impossible to die)

Block ideas:
- Cushion, negates all fall damage (there are some boxes in which currently you MUST take fall damage)
- Sticky block / block from which you cannot jump (disable_jump=1)
- Trampoline / bouncy block?
- Deadly spikes

Bugs:
- In some boxes the 3D clouds really get in the way and fly in your face. Possible bugfix: Just disable 3D clouds. Or make sure they're always higher than the box itself
- If you teleport into a new box, you sometimes fall into your death. Possible bugfix: Spawn players a short distance higher. Add a second layer of blocks below the spawn point as a failsafe.
- Sometimes, if you look into the sky in a box, you can see white blocks, possibly from another box?
- Minimap is almost always useless in boxes
- Many items (especially diggable blocks) have a poor item description which look too technical
- Instead of “A Pickaxe”, I would just write “Pickaxe”
- Some boxes/levels have typos or poor grammar, esp. in terminals
- In box 8, I believe it is possible to get to a point of no return if you place a torch at the hanging gravel. The gravel will fall, probably leaving you with no escape route.
- The overlay icon/particle (?) which appears if you want to place a ladder looks like a “ladder block”
- /enter does not work while you're in a box. This seems like a pointless restriction

Sofar, please do not underestimate the importance of good writing skills for a polished game. An otherwise high-quality game can quickly look like a project from a 5-year-old if the writing is very poor and has many typos. “Proofreading” should be a regular part of a box' quality assurance. It's as if you would only use MS paint for all textures.

I'd like to not provide/force many chat commands to users, especially for "playing" on the server, it should all be through interaction with the world as much as possible.

I completely agree. The chat command was just a quick and dirty hack. I think the best way would be to make all levels available to the player by default (no matter how). After the tutorial, there should be no more “unlocking” required.
I'm creating MineClone 2, a Minecraft clone for Minetest. I made the Help modpack, adding in-game help to Minetest.
 

User avatar
GreenDimond
Member
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 01:26
Location: Just outside of existence.
GitHub: GreenXenith
IRC: GreenDimond
In-game: GreenDimond

Re: My review of Inside The Box on September 19, 2017

by GreenDimond » Tue Sep 19, 2017 19:52

Wuzzy wrote:The award for the best troll goes to …
+ Spoiler

Mwahahaha >:D


Suggestions:
- After completing a level and stepping on the “exit” teleporter, teleport player to the “Play” island instead of “The Nexus” so the player doesn't have to walk so much

I think it would better to grant the fast privelege when in the Nexus, since it's not just the 'Play' island that players want to go to.
My YouTube channel. I moderate the HOMETOWN Server. My Mods: Tac Nayn - Sandplus - Waffles - Pumpkin Spice ✂️- - - - - -
 

User avatar
Stix
Member
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 14:19
Location: USA
In-game: Stix

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Stix » Tue Sep 19, 2017 20:03

my new box: "Nothing to see here", is now ready to be accepted.
Need to know something? "Google it" --GreenDimond
Why do so many people believe in "God"?
Want to know whats gonna be in the next release of your favorite game? "Bugfixes" --Wuzzy
The new Minetest-offtopic can be found here: https://minetestoftopic.createaforum.com/index.php
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: My review of Inside The Box on September 19, 2017

by sofar » Tue Sep 19, 2017 21:16

Uhhhhh, I can't possibly reply to all the comments in one go, so I'm gonna slowly pick away at parts of your message. Hopefully I can get most of your points addressed.

Wuzzy wrote:I really hope this game will be released as standalone free software sooner or later. It would be a shame if one day the server just shuts down and is gone for good.


I've spent the last 2 days (in between recovering from a failed RAID array and another project) working on attacking several code security issues that we knew we had to address or at least look into to make sure it's not too bad. I won't release the code until I'm at least confident that it won't take the first malicious player to attempt to wipe out the entire world through an exploit. The fact that we will be publishing code means that we've only had very few people look at it. Now, fortunately, it's been people with a very high amount of skill, but still, not enough anyway.

The server is hosted by me, personally, paid for by my own personal money. I will likely not shut it down unless player count is completely zero for an extended time (like, a year or more).

There's also a more fundamental thing about this project which has a far better chance of it lasting a longer time than most other servers: The server is setup, designed, to handle new content and present it to new players just as well as it was on the first day that we had 3 boxes and let a bunch of people play test it. It only ever will get more boxes, better boxes, and we'll cover some of the interface/teleport weirdness problems soon enough (did I mention security is higher on the list of things to fix?).

So, even if we publish the code, the true value of the project isn't the code, but it's the boxes that people have built. So, shutting it down seems like the opposite of what I'd want the project to become in the long run.

Now, we do have a really nice and safe way to do backups, and so we can restore and save boxes that people have been editing if needed, as well as recover from a potential server crash, but I want to make clear that the boxes that people make aren't part of the thing we're going to publish, at least, not any time soon. The last thing I want to do is to avoid addressing criticism and stop taking feedback and effectively force people to build a new server in a different place.

So, your feedback is *very much* appreciated. As a matter of fact, there isn't much in it that I disagree with, the only thing I can say about a few items is that we made a bunch of things on purpose because we want to avoid certain types of players, or get a certain effect.

Audience picking is a strategy, that is first and foremost critical to establishing the identy of a community. You can't just "punt" on the audience choice. If we'd let too many mobile players in and make it too easy for them, you're never going to get some more of the difficult parkours puzzle boxes. If you'd let people build and create too soon, you're going to get hundreds of unfinished and terrible puzzle boxes. You ... have to... choose your audience.

The most important tool we have to determine who gives up too soon and doesn't persist through is the tutorial. And that's why it's 8 boxes and perhaps a bit too long. I did make 2 elements a slight bit easier, and if you look through some of my previous posts in this thread you will see that I take a data-driven approach to determine if the tutorial boxes are too difficult or not. The end result is that we promote and reward players with tenacity, and hopefully get the players to understand that building isn't a trivial thing - it's actually harder than playing.

We're going to go into this period where we're going to get maybe 4-7 new boxes a week. If you think about it, those will be along a bell curve of "most dreadful" to "most enjoyable" with most boxes being somewhere in the middle (and that is after the "sofar" filter that just flatly rejects junk builds). This means that we'll get 1-2 that are really nice and most people would love, and 2-3 that are "trash" to "meh". We'll need to work through the next few weeks to months to push hard with reviews to make puzzle box builders take the time to redo their boxes and improve them. I see a lot of low-deco boxes, and the puzzles are just bland if there's nothing pretty to see, plus they're sometimes way too easy that way.

last, I want to repeat, we did none of the project in haste. We spent 9 months on thinking out details and laying the foundation for a very polished game. If you do spot typos, please, screenshot them and PM me the screenshot. While my TODO list is huge, I do want to make time to fix irritation factor things like typos. I may just take the artistic freedom to keep the terminal interface the same (point and click is for tablet kids) but there's a lot of untapped potential in things you pointed out that still need complete implementation.
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: My review of Inside The Box on September 19, 2017

by sofar » Tue Sep 19, 2017 21:24

Wuzzy wrote:- Add a way to restart a box. There are boxes with a point of no return (impossible to win, impossible to die)


This is a bug. Please tell me exactly which boxes this is about and I'll address the problem.

First, I don't want people to ever *have* to reset a box. Period. So one of the first rules is:

1. A box must be able to be completed at all times during game play.

Getting stuck in a hole? Bug, should not have been accepted. Locked yourself in a room? Gotta fix.

2. A box must be able to be completed without dying.

You may not make dying a requirement for completing the box. Dying should also not give an advantage if possible, but I'll ignore it unless it's too obvious. Now, this isn't saying that you have to make most players survive the box. There's nothing wrong with giving them choices that are incorrect and lead to their death. Although I'd appreciate it if you didn't make a "here's a spot you can die to reset your position to the start" element. If the player makes a mistake, kill them immediately instead where possible.

Up until now I've enforced these rules for new boxes and we've had some people already redo their boxes. So if you find something like an accidentally falling piece of gravel blocking a critical path, then that's absolutely a bug we'll fix or remove a box for.
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: My review of Inside The Box on September 19, 2017

by sofar » Tue Sep 19, 2017 21:54

Wuzzy wrote:The level selection is quite messy at the moment. The Master Series has overlap with the mini temples, which is why I don't like the Matster Series. ster Series: You'll just repeat many levels you already played. Note I first played the levels in the strange mini temples first before. Master Series sounds difficult so I saved this for the end.

The strange mini temples with strange symbols and smiley faces on them: I don't know what they're for, the levels seem random. There are even some tutorial levels in them. This seems wrong. o_O


This is one of those unfinished code blocks. Remember the "Categorize" thing when you finish a box?

The idea is that some people like certain style boxes, and others don't. Some like parkours, some like searching for 3 hours, some like pretty boxes.

We can't possibly come up with a way to manually categorize boxes, so we've setup a system to let users do it for us.

The way it is intended to work, in the future, is, that when players finish a box, they attach (up to) 3 icons to a box. For instance, if it's a dark and gloomy cave box they just finished, they would likely select the "rainy cloud" icon. If it was a short box, they'd pick the racecar.

The 20 or so "mini-temples" with the icons would then automatically generate series for all boxes that have that particular icon association, without us having to do a bunch of manual work. And then players could quickly find boxes that are within a particular flavor.

Of course, the idea hasn't actually been put into code yet, so the teleports in these mini-temples currently go into just a random bunch of boxes. Yes, that's not very useful, either. I'm not sure if taking them away until this is functional would be a good solution either.

What needs to be done is some actual data work, and coming up with a way to regularly scan box score data, and process all that. Not entirely trivial code, too.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by Wuzzy » Tue Sep 19, 2017 22:51

As requested, here is the list of typos and other minor issues:

9: A lonely tree house:
- If you fall down the platform, it is impossible to return. You are stuck forever.
- It's a boring level anyway xD
- (This level can be currently be accessed by the shocked smiley face (“:O”), but “/enter 9” doesn't work)

8: Gasp! Don't fall!
- In the gravel area, there is a place with overhanging gravel. If you place a torch there, the gravel may fall, *probably* leaving you with no way to escape. You are stuck forever.

5: mystery cave:
- Box title is not capitalized
- All texts in the 3 terminals at start are bad
- File name “instructons” [sic!] in terminal
- The 3 hints should be separated in 3 files, not all hints in 1 file.
- The invisible box ceiling is so low you bang your head xD

80: Castle:
- Another very low invisible ceiling, you bang your head when you get to the castle roof

114: UP:
- Another very low invisible ceiling

51: A house in the woods:
- Another very low invisible ceiling, but it seems to be intentional this time

87: Earthquake:
- All hints are in a single file

22: A easy parcour:
- Ungrammatical title (“A” instead of “An”)

120: The forgotten box
- The hints terminal in the storage room: No period, first letter not capitalized

40: There Snow Way Out:
- Not really a problem, but:
- Too many emoticons for my taste
- The big writings (“built by …”) on the wall are redundant

Other boxes:
- May have typos, too, but I probably have forgotten them. XD

Main island entry terminal, in file “version”:
- “minetest” instead of “Minetest”


About the mini temples:
Interesting idea. But I would suggest to replace some of the icons as I find it hard to associate any kind of level with them, e.g. the arrows or question marks and also the smiley faces. These icons would fit to basically everything.
Icon ideas: Pickaxe, water, lava, fire, lily pad, tree, shovel, bush, plant/flower, tower/castle, snowball, nut (for the levels that are “hard to crack” xD), factory, steel bar.
When I think of it, *just* using icons is probably not a good idea, people have different associations with the icons and the categorization will most likely be very chaotic. There should also be some kind of description or label attached, otherwise it won't help much.

Also, the category buttons at the level exit are painfully slow, it takes ages until you do a full circle. Under these conditions I don't think anybody wants to set a category. But I'm sure you know that already. ;-)
I'm creating MineClone 2, a Minecraft clone for Minetest. I made the Help modpack, adding in-game help to Minetest.
 

User avatar
ManElevation
Member
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 22:04
Location: Madrid,Spain
GitHub: ManElevation
IRC: ManElevation
In-game: ManElevation
 

User avatar
v-rob
Member
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 03:19

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by v-rob » Tue Sep 19, 2017 23:19

About terminals:

You should make the help easier to understand instead of just listing functions. Probably giving each one its own line with a description would be best.

I think terminals should also be able to send trigger and untrigger signals, probably with the commands "trigger" and "untrigger."

Example: Type "trigger <name of thing here>" to send an trigger signal to all blocks connected to <name of thing here>. "trigger all" would send a trigger signal to everything connected to the terminal.

Type a command like "switch" to see an available list of triggers the terminal can send.

To connect a terminal to a block, type a different command like "connect <name of thing here>" Then, connect things like you normally would. This can make a compact way to make many switches.
I dislike huge mods, but incomplete mods or mods that could use touching up are even worse.
I don't like playing Minetest as much as I like modding it.
The keyboard sequence to remove all bugs: Ctrl + A, Ctrl + X, Ctrl + S, Alt + F4
 

User avatar
GreenDimond
Member
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 01:26
Location: Just outside of existence.
GitHub: GreenXenith
IRC: GreenDimond
In-game: GreenDimond

Re: [Server] Inside The Box [Puzzles]

by GreenDimond » Tue Sep 19, 2017 23:24

Wuzzy wrote:40: There Snow Way Out:
- Not really a problem, but:
- Too many emoticons for my taste
- The big writings (“built by …”) on the wall are redundant

I put those signs there just because. Don't ask. Also I don't remember putting many emoticons but ok xD
My YouTube channel. I moderate the HOMETOWN Server. My Mods: Tac Nayn - Sandplus - Waffles - Pumpkin Spice ✂️- - - - - -
 

PreviousNext

Return to Servers



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests