Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMovement

Mineminer
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:
run on home PC
Must Test spent its first year being run on a home laptop. It is also a serious server. Just saying.

I suspect that running a server at home is actually harder than hosting one remotely, because of having to deal with router configs. One wrong command and next thing you know, the parents are yelling about no internet access. — Not that I would know anything about it, in general.


It even more so when you fails to realize the most dangers...
1. Most ISPs do NOT allow you to run servers
2. DDoSes because of the reasoning above (and even if they don't) has fun disputing that one with them
3. Even if you got DDoS protection with your internet there still the insanely low upload (what servers needs) to deal with.

Therefore no serious owners would host at home.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

Yes, that's part of why I don't do that anymore.

By "serious", though, I was referring to the amount of work spent customizing the code, fixing bugs, building a website, optimizing some things, adding features, etc.

If an owner does those things, they are serious even if they don't pay for hosting, because obviously they are willing to spend the time, and time is money.

Likewise, if an owner does pay for hosting, but does not spend much time (or any time) actually making the server unique, I wouldn't consider them serious about it.

Edit: in fact, one serious server owner previously mentioned on this thread did in fact run their server from their laptop, probably longer than me. Which is my main point: the hardware involved shouldn't be used as the measure of "seriousness". Time and effort are much more important, IMO.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:Yes, that's part of why I don't do that anymore.

By "serious", though, I was referring to the amount of work spent customizing the code, fixing bugs, building a website, optimizing some things, adding features, etc.

If an owner does those things, they are serious even if they don't pay for hosting, because obviously they are willing to spend the time, and time is money.

Likewise, if an owner does pay for hosting, but does not spend much time (or any time) actually making the server unique, I wouldn't consider them serious about it.

Edit: in fact, one serious server owner previously mentioned on this thread did in fact run their server from their laptop, probably longer than me. Which is my main point: the hardware involved shouldn't be used as the measure of "seriousness". Time and effort are much more important, IMO.


Serious is a balance between all of these. You can have a WELL coded server that the WORLD would like but if your hosting it unprotected, on a 1Mbps line, and in your basement people WILL deemed you as non serious.

It's sucks on how to get SIMPLE hosting that matches Minecraft servers qualities which is why I am not hosting it atm. Otherwise your just going to need to roll it yourself and put it on a DDoS protected VM at a minimum.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

What is your point? All I said originally was that you can be a serious server operator and still run your server from your home. I gave an example of another server that did this, and I don't think anyone who knows which server I'm talking about would say that it was un-serious.

In fact I just remembered another server owner previously mentioned in this thread, who ALSO did the same thing (that makes 3 servers now [that I know of] with a history of being run on a home connection, including mine). Would you say that server wasn't serious? While it was online, it was often near the top of the master list (it was popular for mobile-device players). It went offline finally, not because of any issues, but because its owner eventually became tired of it for perfectly understandable reasons.

Please don't talk about balance. Your very next sentence is a contrast between two extremes. Neither of your described situations applied to me, nor did it apply to the other two servers which I have mentioned, to the best of my knowledge in communication with those owners. That is not balance.

I'm not recommending that people should run their servers from home; in fact that is a very bad idea, and I cannot figure out how you managed to interpret my post that way. You can potentially be "hacked" through the server, for instance, if you don't know enough about permissions and privileges and/or you install unsafe mods. Some people are knowledgeable enough though, that they CAN do this. I'm not going to sit here and call them "unserious" as you seem to do.

Edit: reordered a sentence for clarity.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:What is your point? All I said originally was that you can be a serious server operator and still run your server from your home. I gave an example of another server that did this, and I don't think anyone who knows which server I'm talking about would say that it was un-serious.

In fact I just remembered another server owner previously mentioned in this thread, who ALSO did the same thing (that makes 3 servers now [that I know of] with a history of being run on a home connection, including mine). Would you say that server wasn't serious? While it was online, it was often near the top of the master list (it was popular for mobile-device players). It went offline finally, not because of any issues, but because its owner eventually became tired of it for perfectly understandable reasons.

Please don't talk about balance. Your very next sentence is a contrast between two extremes. Neither of your described situations applied to me, nor did it apply to the other two servers which I have mentioned, to the best of my knowledge in communication with those owners. That is not balance.

I'm not recommending that people should run their servers from home; in fact that is a very bad idea, and I cannot figure out how you managed to interpret my post that way. You can potentially be "hacked" through the server, for instance, if you don't know enough about permissions and privileges and/or you install unsafe mods. Some people are knowledgeable enough though, that they CAN do this. I'm not going to sit here and call them "unserious" as you seem to do.

Edit: reordered a sentence for clarity.


Would you run a hosting company off a home connection? I don't think so why do the same for your valuable players?

It's one thing to have LAN party but if your providing a SERVICE it better be on server grade hardware in a SECURED environment (hardware and network speaking). Otherwise people are not going to take your seriously.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

Alright, since you so obviously love to use such bass-akwards logic coupled with horrible comparisons ... your post count on this forum is only 50 (as of now). I don't take you seriously.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:Alright, since you so obviously love to use such bass-akwards logic coupled with horrible comparisons ... your post count on this forum is only 50 (as of now). I don't take you seriously.


Thank you for your opinion regarding this.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GreenXenith » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:Alright, since you so obviously love to use such bass-akwards logic coupled with horrible comparisons ... your post count on this forum is only 50 (as of now). I don't take you seriously.
You yourself only have 20 more posts than he.
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Lone_Wolf » Post

IanniPowerup!!! wrote:As u all know there's only 1 popular way of dealing with players that don't fit in .
So someone using a hacked client is someone that doesn't fit in?
IanniPowerup!!! wrote:And that's banning , either temporarelly either permanently . Most of us know it's wrong ,
So it's wrong to ban someone that's doing wrong themselves?
IanniPowerup!!! wrote:you shouldn't keep a player from playing in the server . And totally NOT abuse your power as an admin/mod/helper against someone u dissgree with or don't like .
Why? Your method prevents them from doing anything on the server for about a month. What's the point of joining if you can't do anything?
IanniPowerup!!! wrote: Someone's personality should defenetly not be a reason to ban . If you wanna play the ''admin'' role at least make the system work . If you are against swearing put a censoring comand .
'Censoring command'? I don't want to sit on the server all day typing a command for every chat message
Most servers use chat filters. But you still see players swearing. Why? Because they find a way around it. You could write a book listing all the possible variations of one bad word. You want to type that all out in the chat filter code just because you hate banning players?
IanniPowerup!!! wrote: My BEST choise for bad players is a jail system , it's easy to make and it isn't banning , the player still gets to log in , but do community work or only live in a space . It's so simple : Revoke the interact , shout and spawn priv and put someone in jail for 3 weeks . This way you are not banning and the server has actually a working system .
How would I do 'community work' when I have no privileges? I would just change my name. If you jailed by IP I would just change my IP. Sounds like a lot of work to not ban someone
IanniPowerup!!! wrote: This is why i want to create the Anti-Ban Movement for MineTest , so we at least convince some servers to adopt this method .

Banning isn't the solution , keep players in the game .

#AntiBanMovement
Some admins don't care who they ban. Some are too immature to make the right decision when it comes to banning. Definitely not the type of people who are smart enough/want to adopt your untested suggestions. The other admins have a banning system that works fine. Why would they want to change?
The jail system also takes a lot more time and effort to get working than a ban one. I have more time to dedicate to perfecting and fixing other mods if I go with banning.
If I don't agree with someone then I just don't talk about my differences with them. Instead of forcing everyone to do something because of the bad management of other servers just Don't Join The Badly Managed Servers

EDIT: If you don't answer anyone's questions then I don't see any point in keeping this topic here
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

You are very welcome.

Edit: this was to Mineminer.

GreenDimond: that was my point.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GreenXenith » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:
GreenDimond wrote:
GoldFireUn wrote:Alright, since you so obviously love to use such bass-akwards logic coupled with horrible comparisons ... your post count on this forum is only 50 (as of now). I don't take you seriously.
You yourself only have 20 more posts than he.
GreenDimond: that was my point.
GoldFireUn wrote:Alright, since you so obviously love to use such bass-akwards logic coupled with horrible comparisons ... your post count on this forum is only 50 (as of now). I don't take you seriously.
By this logic, no one should take you seriously. Was this your point?
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

My point was that a silly argument deserves a silly reply.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:My point was that a silly argument deserves a silly reply.


Then don't come crying to me when someone terminate your ISP contract, if they goes down and most over servers are online because of enterprise grade hardware and network blend, USPes, and/or etc.

Serious gaming communities don't spill money for those because they has to in order to preserve their reputation of a solid community. Again if you don't care to meet market standards why should I care to play on your home connection?

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by GoldFireUn » Post

Do you even read the posts you reply to?

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by sofar » Post

GoldFireUn wrote:Do you even read the posts you reply to?
No, they don't. This person has been consistently re-stating their opinion over and over again, with lots of bold text. My conclusion is that `mineminer` is incapable of having a sensible conversation, and just loves to restate their own opinion ad nauseam.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

sofar wrote:
GoldFireUn wrote:Do you even read the posts you reply to?
No, they don't. This person has been consistently re-stating their opinion over and over again, with lots of bold text. My conclusion is that `mineminer` is incapable of having a sensible conversation, and just loves to restate their own opinion ad nauseam.


I am simply stating facts that a serious gaming community almost always exclusively rent from a data center (there are few exceptions but even then things like DDoS protection, USP, etc are not completely neglected).

If you don't (and if not the rare cases of not)? Then the market will gladly take you down for not providing your player base with enterprise grade hardware and networking services.

It's like having a restaurant in your dinning area could it be done? Yes but it market standards? Absolutely not and therefore you would not be considered a serious restaurant owner.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by sofar » Post

Mineminer wrote:I am simply stating
No, you're completely unhinged. You're derailed. You're not even attempting to behave like a human being.

This thread is about the practice of banning. You're just flaming your own opinion about "serious gamers" from a completely unrelated thread that you started and flooded with the exact same nonsense. And now that that thread has completely voided itself from any sort of reasonable human interaction due to your own attitude, you are poisoning another thread with the same fucking bullshit.

Shut the hell up and gain some perspective. We don't care one bit about people who behave like a 2 year old tantrum monster.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Mineminer » Post

sofar wrote:
Mineminer wrote:I am simply stating
No, you're completely unhinged. You're derailed. You're not even attempting to behave like a human being.

This thread is about the practice of banning. You're just flaming your own opinion about "serious gamers" from a completely unrelated thread that you started and flooded with the exact same nonsense. And now that that thread has completely voided itself from any sort of reasonable human interaction due to your own attitude, you are poisoning another thread with the same fucking bullshit.

Shut the hell up and gain some perspective. We don't care one bit about people who behave like a 2 year old tantrum monster.


The discussion was speaking of "serious owners" regarding bans so I am simply adding to that. As I said before rent a service and host it seriously. Otherwise no one will take you seriously for running the game on consumer grade hardware/services.

If you don't like that then that is fine but please do not infer that I am purposely derailing as the discussion of "serious owners" was long before I even joined on to explain these things.

every other forum that I been to allow such activities. But if it not permitted here then I will gladly show my way to the door.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Lone_Wolf » Post

When I join a server I don't look at the quality of the hardware. I look at the quality of the staff and the gameplay. As long as it isn't insanely laggy I'm content. I'm sure many other Minetesters can say the same.
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by sofar » Post

Mineminer wrote: The discussion was speaking of "serious owners" ....
No way. You twisted this into your own argument by picking on something minor that someone said and then starting a rant about your own little soapbox argument.

You haven't said a single thing about banning or ban practices. You didn't even use the word `ban` in your replies. You started ranting immediately that "Oh my gosh hosting on a home server is for plebs" and "I know better than anyone what serious game hosting is" etc.
Mineminer wrote:every other forum that I been to allow such activities. But if it not permitted here then I will gladly show my way to the door.
why are you still here?

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Linuxdirk » Post

redblade7 wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:
rubenwardy wrote:No, one can be done in a second whereas the other usually requires money for a VPN, a router switch off, or time for be the IP to change
Or logging in to the router and click reboot.
You have to change the router's MAC though
No, you don't. As said: outside the United States IP addresses for private users are assigned dynamically on reconnect. So simply reboot the router and you're done in 99 percent of all cases outside the US.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by rubenwardy » Post

Whilst I expected this topic to descend into an argument, I didn't expect it to be like that. Please just stop, you're going around in circles.

There is more than one quality to being a good server host, and all of them are important in different ways. Both of the qualities you each mention make a good server, but lack of one doesn't necessarily mean you're not a good host, just means there's room to improve the experience you offer

If this stupid argument continues I'll have to lock this thread.

Please at least try to be polite to other users even if you don't agree

Don't want to have to issue bans for this ;) (joke)
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by TommyTreasure » Post

So, let me get this straight. I could visit a neighbor's house, decide I don't like their dog or cat, so I kick it. On the way out the door, I decide to grab hold of their bookcase, and pull it over. Meanwhile, as the owner of the house tells me to leave, I start yelling obscenities at their 3 or 4 year child.

Yup, don't you dare ban me. If you do, I'll TP your front yard.

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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Lone_Wolf » Post

Before you go around telling other server owners what to do why don't you try hosting a server yourself? Adopting the suggestions you have made of course. I see you have a server but it has no rules.
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Re: Stop Banning People | The Anti-Ban Movement #AntiBanMove

by Buddler » Post

Been banned recently for not obeying server rules that you didn't bother to read anyway? Well, that's one way of dealing with that. The other two are:
  • Setting up your own public server where you're boss, where nobody can ban you.
  • Get some script-kiddie tool and (try to) DDoS the public server you've been on into oblivion.
Seriously, if server owners remove the final punishment for breaking the server rules, they may just as well break the rules. Chaotic anarchists may be in for the times of their lives, destroying cities that took dozens of people months or years to build within minutes just for the lulz and not facing any consequences (even if they've managed to even drown the spawn area under 20 blocks of lava, killing new members in the process).

But some of us like the public servers they frequent to be intact, tidy, beautiful and peaceful, thank you very much. Some of us play Minetest to build, to create, preferably to make something that's built to last, something others can enjoy. And then there are still [expletive]s who think they can break all rules (because rules are made to be broken) and destroy our creations (just to show us how they're better than us). Some even have to resort to modded clients to demostrate their alleged superiority. The only way to stop them is to ban them. And then they still come and complain about (or retaliate against) their ban.

What else are server owners supposed to do? Some griefers and trolls simply never stop. They carry on as long as they can log in and move around. Jail them, and after jail time they'll go on, and they will go on with the same modded client. That said, if jail mods become more popular, so will client-side mods that circumvent jail.

No, certain players can only be stopped making a mess by making sure they'll never ever return.
IhrFussel wrote:I think you will agree that lots of servers are not serious enough to even think about them (run by kids, run on home PC and only available a few hours per day, minetesthosting free servers etc).

From what I heard/experienced many server admins actually fully apply this "can do whatever the heck they want" attitude.
Sounds like mostly those servers quickly cobbled together by players who have been trolling, griefing, invading private areas or generally and repeatedly going on other players' nerves on public servers. The mods told them to stop, they ignored the mods, carried on, and so they were banned. After that, they set up their own public server where they can do whatever the [expletive] they want without being banned. Said server usually doesn't have any rules due to either "anarchy" or laziness, but not because the admin would have to adhere to them, too.
GoldFireUn wrote:
run on home PC
Must Test spent its first year being run on a home laptop. It is also a serious server. Just saying.
This probably rather referred to those who set up a public server on their Windows gaming computers that they always shut down after use, regardless of other players still being active on the server. That machine is all they have.

(On a sidenote, running a server on a laptop isn't that bad an idea. A brownout or blackout will cause the machine to keep on running until the battery is empty, and then it goes into sleep. A normal server will simply stop working without electricity unless you've got an UPS, potentially causing all kinds of nasty side-effects that come with not shutting it down properly. Laptops have a built-in UPS.)

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