Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverlist

Shall the Serverlist give more points for the player count?

No, don’t change anything.
2
33%
Yes, as described below.
3
50%
Something else please post it.
1
17%
 
Total votes : 6

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Lejo
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Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverlist

by Lejo » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:19

On the Serverlist the ranking works with points.
The limit lays at 16 points and the limit for the average players at 4 points.
The Minetest community has grown a lot so today are there much servers with more than 16 players.
So this servers with more then 16 players should also be ranked.
I prefer to double both limits to 32 and 8 points.

What do you think?

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Gundul » Sat Sep 08, 2018 13:49

Quantity of players says not very much about a server. Most android users do not even try to scroll down server list.
So rank 1-10 is overcrowded anyway.
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Lejo » Sat Sep 08, 2018 16:22

Gundul wrote:Quantity of players says not very much about a server.

Of course it says how much players like the server.
Gundul wrote:Most android users do not even try to scroll down server list.
So rank 1-10 is overcrowded anyway.

Maybe full servers should get less points.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 00:54

server-list should be hosted also as copy in Europe and Asia, to offer much more fair ping, as gamers wish to play with less lag = want servers nearby, low ping,
and this list is Netherlands and the ping from there,

what also shows in clients, even sitting beside the server, a bad ping, even he has RTT 0.001 ha

maybe sorting allowed in gamers in, age and ping and (even lag ?)

I have no problem to host on list for south east Asia, but the masters-server is so difficult to install, if some one help, i also will arrange that for Europe

but: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverlist
I think that already happened, as I checked that today again. Calculation by hand, and a server with 31 gamers loosing then (31-16) 15 Points against other cant be on top of servers near 16 gamers, max 32 gamers, avg gamers 16 and no other minus from running less 8 hours, or aged less then 8 months.

Yes, change from 16 gamers to 32 - that is good for this year, we check again in 2020

But it is, did two Screenshots, and slow calculated with what i remember.
Last edited by Festus1965 on Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Lejo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:30

You are right.
The maximum point for online client changed.
You now can have up to 200x0.8=160 Client which will give you points, more will decrease your point. The 200 is the maximum client count.
So you will lose points if your server is full.
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(link deleted by moderator)
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:17

so there is a Server List Priority i found
* plus 1 Point each gamer until 160 - but - minus 1 Point for every gamer more then 160 (so max 160 P)
* - 8 points if max_gamers = over 200, but from what max_gamers it starts with minus 1 Point (i think was some 32) -
* up to max 4 points for avg gamers, each 1 = 0.25 points plus - max plus 4
* a minus of up to 8 points for fresh started server until reach 8 hours (each hours)
* a minus of up to 8 points for young server until reach full 8 months (each month)

so the maximum reach points is 160 + 4 = 164
the minimum is a new just started server, with no gamers = -16 (if not loose more with max_gamers)

most servers have about 20-40 gamers, an avg with 10, have set an good max_gamers, and no lost of ages = mean about 22,5 up to 44 points -
only very less luck out there, and than check the names ... if much, most also name123 mobile gamers (if not bots)

will see, that some may be understand better now, what counts in - and a server will reach 160 ... I wanna see !

But so far I like it, as one server shows up last time with a huge distance, and so he is taking away most of the (i think most bad, cheating, maybe bot) Apps from the other servers, which will get better as not flooded with them anymore, and still listed high enough. But that is another story, how to sort all together and what mean good, or bad (as lag - ping cant count as it is wrong)
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:20

Lejo wrote:Thanks for your conclusion!
I just hope that the server owners are fair to others.


What mean fair ?
That some use already no_guests and shelter there server from a lot of data transfer, cpu load, lag, and misused by advertising apps ... and so they keep less users loosing rank in the list. Yes ... the first I think about.

Or other servers kick out when no move for x minute to shelter there servers (cpu, lag) or maybe not reach maxgamers - or they shelter there clients from GPU load ... haha

so nice thinking about why and what and ...
I told my kids you can keep in, that still as show up, still nearby - ready to be there fast ... as electric is cheap here, haha
Or myself, have hole day time to watch the gamers, and mama like to see what her daughter is doing, so 3 logins mainly during the day, I have the PCs here, the time to do ... fair ?

- Have a nice Day
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Lejo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:54

I mean that they don't add bots or send wrong data to the serverlist.
Mods like no_guests are in my opinion ok because everybody can use them.
The ping problem yes that's bad but it of course tells the serverlist that it's a remote server and not a self hosted one.
And remote servers are mostly more powerful.
 

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Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverlist

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 13:15

Lejo wrote:... serverlist that it's a remote server and not a self hosted one.
And remote servers are mostly more powerful.


no_guests and kick inactive are lowering the gamers and are so bad for the server, loosing places (if that is important)

remote servers are more power-full then self hosted ?

Show me a remote or rented server that is better than this (not virtuall sharing):
* cpu 8 Core, 3,4 Mhz
* 16 GB Ram, on 4 slots mean near 15.000 MB/s
* M.2 SSD with 2200 read / 2200 write (- normal SSD 500 r/w, HDD 250)
* even an extra GPU to make sure not any graphic build is made there


But also , I am wondering how the lag is sent or updated.
* my actual 0.4.16 had last two hours not more then 0.3 and now 0.15 but shows 50 since I look it,
* my testing 5.0 had also nothing to do always around 0.4 and less and showing 80
(guess /100 yes - but seams lag is rise up by something calculated like ping-time, what would be double bad, as already the ping is just from Netherlands = other thread)
... maybe i visit some more servers to check more evidence

but lag should be shown as real server lag, than that is the only truth about the server, as the ping of a gamer is different, might lift up the lag, but that is another story to think - we should give the gamer watch the list the most not changed truth !
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Lejo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 13:28

Festus1965 wrote:no_guests and kick inactive are lowering the gamers and are so bad for the server, loosing places (if that is important)

The server owner can decide this.
In my opinion it's better to have them, also because guests only give you 1/8 point.

Show me a remote or rented server that is better than this (not virtuall sharing):
* cpu 8 Core, 3,4 Mhz
* 16 GB Ram, on 4 slots mean near 15.000 MB/s
* M.2 SSD with 2200 read / 2200 write (- normal SSD 500 r/w, HDD 250)
* even an extra GPU to make sure not any graphic build is made there

I mean that remote server are always online while self-hosted are more often offline.
But here I must say you are right.

But also , I am wondering how the lag is sent or updated.
* my actual 0.4.16 had last two hours not more then 0.3 and now 0.15 but shows 50 since I look it,
* my testing 5.0 had also nothing to do always around 0.4 and less and showing 80
(guess /100 yes - but seams lag is rise up by something calculated like ping-time, what would be double bad, as already the ping is just from Netherlands = other thread)
... maybe i visit some more servers to check more evidence

The server itself send it' lag, look here.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 15:22

lag seen and followed the track, got it, changed it

guests counting seams to be not clear now: Remove or lower the Mobile User penalty for servers
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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by IhrFussel » Sun Feb 03, 2019 18:57

Festus1965 wrote:lag seen and followed the track, got it, changed it

guests counting seams to be not clear now: Remove or lower the Mobile User penalty for servers


The github issue you linked was opened by me, long ago.

And up until this day the core devs didn't decide on any action regarding that.

I tried to tell them many times that on my server there are also quite a few 'guests' that actually put MUCH MORE effort into the server than most 'normal' users.

And I find it discriminating to make users worth less just because they use a certain app that gives them such a random name, to play.

I also find it discriminating to call all those app users 'low quality players'.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by sorcerykid » Sun Feb 03, 2019 20:46

Image

What's particularly amusing is the response by a core dev, suggesting that a server 40+ players isn't below servers with no players even after I shared a screencap as evidence of my server with 40+ players being listed below all other servers with no players.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by sofar » Sun Feb 03, 2019 21:38

sorcerykid wrote:Image

What's particularly amusing is the response by a core dev, suggesting that a server 40+ players isn't below servers with no players even after I shared a screencap as evidence of my server with 40+ players being listed below all other servers with no players.


It's fair to complain, but why do you leave out the evidence in this thread that you have that supports your case? That suggests that you are not entirely honest yourself.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by rubenwardy » Sun Feb 03, 2019 21:42

sorcerykid wrote:Image

What's particularly amusing is the response by a core dev, suggesting that a server 40+ players isn't below servers with no players even after I shared a screencap as evidence of my server with 40+ players being listed below all other servers with no players.


If that happens again, then please share the output of the server list points checker. This shouldn't happen, it's probably a bug in the sorting

https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by sofar » Sun Feb 03, 2019 21:49

Manipulation of the server list by gaming the algorithms is a form of abuse. If the core devs find that servers are sending false data to the server list to obtain a higher rank, then they have no other recourse but to delist or penalize those servers entirely, which isn't what I think people want.

If you do not support the sorting method of the current serverlist, you can work constructively on creating better ways to sort the list (e.g. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8163).

Note that without actual working code, nothing will change. All these discussions and ideas are useless unless someone writes the required PRs. Some of the discussion ideas have plenty of agreement but zero code. Others, like some of the linked discussions, have no direction or conclusion.

The way out of this is with code changes that everyone can support, not with more open ended discussion.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by sofar » Sun Feb 03, 2019 21:51

rubenwardy wrote:If that happens again, then please share the output of the server list points checker. This shouldn't happen, it's probably a bug in the sorting


I think this may have been due to JT allowing more than (unreasonably large amount) number of players. Of course the value for (unreasonably large amount) used to be, unironically, unreasonably low.
 

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Re: Increase maximum points for player count on the Serverli

by paramat » Sun Feb 03, 2019 22:10

IhrFussel wrote:And I find it discriminating to make users worth less just because they use a certain app that gives them such a random name, to play.

I also find it discriminating to call all those app users 'low quality players'.

The 'guest' penalty does seem worth reconsidering.

Some things to consider:

If, on average, the apps that give guestlike names tend to result in clients that are slightly worse for the server, which on average seems likely because those low quality apps tend to be bad in other ways, then that discrimination is justified, if the intention is to make client type affect score.
'Discrimination' isn't necessarily a bad thing, the word can have a neutral meaning, and it depends on who and why.

On average, app clients probably are slightly worse for a server, server owners seem to be endlessly complaining about bad app clients, even though it isn't the fault of the player who uses the app.
We're not calling "all those app users" low quality players. It's 'on average', and it's possibly more a judgement of the app than the player who uses it.
 


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