[Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.3]

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by SylvesterKruin » Post

Hello! I have a problem with my interlocking system, and I'm wondering whether anyone here has any ideas for how to fix it. I had a route covering multiple signals, TCBs, and turnouts. Unfortunately, the route was active when I absentmindedly deleted it without canceling it first. Now, I have 4 or 5 signals that are forever green because they're under the influence of a route that no longer exists. I can't delete them (or their TCBs), because they're active. I've tried using a LuaATC track to cancel the route, but it doesn't work. I've also tried editing advtrains_interlocking.ls (in a backup of the world), and adding and canceling other routes, all to no avail.

Does anyone know how I could get rid of these invincible signals?
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Blockhead » Post

The "green screwdriver" Interlocking tool should help you. You can right-click on signals, TCBs, and turnouts with the interlocking tool to manually remove route locks, because those might stop you from removing some components. You can also reset the section status on all of the relevant TCBs in case that is part of the problem. Once that's done there should be nothing stopping you from opening the TCB, pressing "Signalling" on one side, and removing the signal with "Unassign Signal".

Really though, I did wonder how you managed to delete a route that was active given you can't see the add/delete buttons on a signal when it's got a route active - back to this thought later. I even made a single section route, drove a subway wagon onto it, noticed it wouldn't let me set the route due to section occupation, but it would let me delete the route. So I thought, ah, this will break it! But no, by punching the subway wagon, recreating the route and then setting it again all worked fine - no ghost section occupation. But then I did the same but added a singular turnout along the way, and noticed that you can't remove that turnout even if the route is deleted. Yes, the green screwdriver can fix that; it should be able to fix signals too.

So the route is still applied and would be cleared if you had a train pass the last TCB of the route as well - if that's possible with all the turnout states your track arrangement might have. That might be easier depending on junction complexity. My thinking of "can't add/delete when a route is set" actually only applies to routes where the signal hasn't been passed by a train yet. After that you can add, delete or edit any routes before the next train approaches the signal. The bug report would say something like "Problem: It's possible to delete a route while it's still set" and the solution would be something like "Check if the route is set by the signal before allowing deletion". Then it would bounce back at you like punching a TCB or signal does when those aren't unassigned properly.

My next question is: why you have used interlocking to set a signal to a green state? In my mind, the usual safeworking principles would mean you should only want to lock signals to red to prevent unsafe movements, and only set a green signal with the signal aspect of the signal that's used for interlocking. In case of junctions, place one signal at each approach and no signals in the middle of the junction and not until one train length after the junction. To talk in other video game terms: Advtrains isn't a chain signal system like Factorio's trains have for instance. Think of them more like path signals from OpenTTD but with manual setup on what the paths are.

Edit Note: The bug has been filed on NotABug.org.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by SylvesterKruin » Post

It works now! I was playing around with the interlocking tool, resetting all the track section states and turnouts as you suggested, but that by itself didn't work. However, when I created a route identical to the deleted one, and drove the train over the whole route (past the last TCB, also as you suggested), the signals went red again, and they work now! I guess I didn't do it completely last time I tried running the train on the route. Thank you so much for the help!

Also, I'm not sure I quite understand your last paragraph; I didn't lock the signals to green; the signals are always red unless a route is currently active of which they are a part. Like you said, I want to prevent any unsafe movements. But I will keep your signalling advice in mind.

And in response to your second paragraph, I think I was able to delete the route because of a combination of factors, including where the train was sitting, the fact that I was using a LuaATC rail to set the route, etc. Actually, looking back on it, I'm really not sure myself how I did this, but thanks again for helping me out!
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by pheonixfire » Post

can someone help me work out why trains won't go down this slope?
screenshot_20220928_141616C.png
screenshot_20220928_141616C.png (583.51 KiB) Viewed 2142 times
screenshot_20220928_145417C.png
screenshot_20220928_145417C.png (473.83 KiB) Viewed 2142 times

Trains get to this point then won't go any further
screenshot_20220928_144624C.png
screenshot_20220928_144624C.png (565.14 KiB) Viewed 2142 times

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Maverick2797 » Post

pheonixfire wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 05:00
can someone help me work out why trains won't go down this slope?
screenshot_20220928_141616C.png
screenshot_20220928_145417C.png

Trains get to this point then won't go any further
screenshot_20220928_144624C.png
A couple of things to try:

Doublecheck your clearances.

Do the /at_reroute command

Re-place the tracks
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by pheonixfire » Post

I've removed and relaid the track with no change, it still stops in the same spot
the /at_reroute command made no difference to the result

as a test I changed a slope section to a flat section, this made no change to the result
so I don't think this is a clearance issue
screenshot_20220928_163901B.png
screenshot_20220928_163901B.png (418.16 KiB) Viewed 2131 times
thank you for the help so far

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

In addition to what Maverick2797 wrote, I would suggest using the /at_sync_ndb command and then the /at_reroute command, although I do not think this will solve the problem at the moment.

Is there any information on the HUD? There should be a red indicator with a three-digit number showing the distance until the train is forced to stop (which should be 000 if the train stops). The ATC target speed indicator should either be absent or not point at zero.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by pheonixfire » Post

the /at_sync_ndb command did the trick

thanks for the help

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Blockhead » Post

pheonixfire wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 05:02
the /at_sync_ndb command did the trick

thanks for the help
I'm sure we've seen this issue before. I've encountered it when building slopes myself. I think the cause is when you punch a node and make the tracks fall and that causes the advtrains node database to go out of sync. I could be wrong though.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

@56independent: Regarding the "newsletters", adding BS is not acceptable.

In terms of the content, I do not have interest in helping you work on them anymore, considering that
  • The part I wrote has had hardly any (if at all) significance in previous posts.
  • Significant changes can be put onto the Minetest Blog instead.
Speaking of changes, some testing can now be done on the new-ks branch, as there will not be any significant changes if it does not introduce new bugs. However, I still need to add the "boring" part (documentation, tests, UI changes, etc) before requesting proper review. The l10n and doc branches can be reviewed as well, as merging these would make further translation/documentation work easier, especially in feature branches.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 20:49
But on the positive side, because i live in a country with fewer English speakers then the UK, i'll have to learn Spanish and then Catalan and maybe even French (Catalonia does border France). This brings many translation oppurtunities for various aspects of Advtrains.

However, my Spanish is nowhere near good enough for this yet (but it's only been 2-3 months here).
From my experience (both personal and from some people around me), doing l10n while still learning a language is ill-advised. I know someone here that passed the B2 exam and still has trouble communicating with others in tenth grade, and speaking and writing abilities tend to be related to each other.

On a more general note (not specific to l10n work), language schools likely do not help much in specialized/academic domains (in the case of Advtrains, trains and rail operation), meaning that you will likely lack the vocabulary for the particular domain. This is, to be honest, not surprising, considering that sometimes native speakers do not know how certain things are called and have to look them up on (for example) Wikipedia.
What you might note is my verb conjugation is all over the place, same for gender.
I am not sure about Spanish, but I assume Spanish dictionaries also give at least some information on (assuming these are relevant) declensions, conjugations, genders, etc - take such information seriously.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 16:25
How would i start up another language of the Advtrains wiki?
I would be against it. Documentation in general takes more time to translate than the UI itself (consider how much time it takes only to translate that) and there is no easy mechanism to keep the original version and the translations in sync.

No to maintenance hell.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 17:05
Ok, i'll keep to translated copies of the newsletter when i get proficent enough in another language to be able to write in it without much "¿qué es la palabra de x?" (i had to search "Spanish word for word" lol). The newsletter offers the advantage that it is basically "set it and forget it". You write it and leave it as another person's problem to keep online. There isn't much need to sync.
If your fluency of Spanish is this terrible then you likely need to wait for at least a few months (if less than a year) before you can seriously work on translations, and I do not understand why you are, at this stage, talking about translations.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 17:33
yw05 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 17:30
I do not understand why you are, at this stage, talking about translations.
Preperation is everything - You wouldn't embark on a journey from Bilbao to Barcelona without a few days of preparation considering everything.
At this stage it is an XY problem to think about technical aspects. It is your lack of language skills holding you back, not technical aspects (if the latter is a problem at all). There is already some work on improving the experience of l10n work for Advtrains itself, and I do not see how you want to prepare for translations on the wiki (and why you are asking things this early).

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Blockhead » Post

It's worth asking how we will manage future l10ns of the wiki into other languages. It's definitely something we could do with German, for instance, at least if some of the German developers had the time to do it. I'm not sure DokuWiki supports multilingual pages like MediaWiki does though (if you can say MW does, maybe a /de, /es etc. page works fine). I suppose we would make a template (copy+paste because DokuWiki doesn't have a templating system) to convey users to translations of the page from the English version and vice versa. The English version will always be the main version I think.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 01:33
It's worth asking how we will manage future l10ns of the wiki into other languages. It's definitely something we could do with German, for instance, at least if some of the German developers had the time to do it. I'm not sure DokuWiki supports multilingual pages like MediaWiki does though (if you can say MW does, maybe a /de, /es etc. page works fine). I suppose we would make a template (copy+paste because DokuWiki doesn't have a templating system) to convey users to translations of the page from the English version and vice versa. The English version will always be the main version I think.
I am against l10n work on the wiki. It has enough problems and l10n will only make things worse.

First, there are problems with the wiki that are not related to l10n. The prominent problem is that there is no way of tracking information based on the version/branch of Advtrains. When I worked on the train HUD, I put the information in a separate section as a proposal/improvement, and later changed it to the main part of the page when the trainhud branch was merged. I definitely have no interest in doing this again for the new-ks branch, considering the amount of changes involved there (and also the main reason I left the Ks signal page outdated instead of updating it - I did add a few minor things later on after new-ks was merged). This is also the reason for me to work on the LaTeX version of the manual - someone adding or modifying features can change the content directly without affecting the whole wiki, and comparisons/merging can be done with Git.

A minor problem affecting those adding trains is that, as far as I know, DokuWiki does not have a template system that is comparable to its counterpart in MediaWiki, so you have to copy everything instead of using infoboxes templates like on MediaWiki. (For those who don't know, some templates, especially infoboxes, are implemented in Lua instead of only MW's markup, and the Lua code is sandboxed - does DokuWiki, or its plugins, provide a similar feature?)

Given the problems above, do developers have the interest in keeping the wiki up to date in multiple languages if they are not even willing to maintain it in a single language? No, and for me, maintaining three versions of the wiki (like I currently do for the l10n files in the source repository) is simply out of the question.

Then there are problems with l10n itself.

There is no way of keeping information in sync, especially when new features are introduced, or existing ones are reworked. People do not tend to watch the changes to the wiki, and even if they did, a lot of dedication would be needed to translate the new content, and, in reality, they would likely completely forget about translating the page, or translate part of the content and then forget about it - assuming they have time to translate these at all.

The point above assumes that the changes do not involve introducing new vocabulary - otherwise this will likely hold things back further, as people will likely ask somewhere for help on that new term, and, subsequently, l10n work will likely be delayed, if not forgotten, especially if the discussion on the meaning of the term is not l10n-specific.

Pages such as the ones on the train catalog can be affected further if certain data on a page is changed, and the changes are not reflected on translated pages. In the best case, some information will be missing; in the worst case, some information will be wrong, and someone using the wrong information will mess up something and come back complaining.
yw05 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 16:49
No to maintenance hell.
Last edited by yw05 on Sat Oct 29, 2022 09:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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