[Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.3]

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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference

by W3RQ01 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 17:13
W3RQ01 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 17:06

Rules
Creativity is well appreciated but keep in mind that the members of the community have limited free time.

Discussions over a topic must be constructive and should be conducted with calmness in the air.

I have the right to remove people from the conference in case of inappropriate behaviour

Topics List
  • Train Painter tool (how, compatibility, livery customisation etc)
  • Automatic paint-ageing (how, who, how much)
  • Skin making (who)
  • What comes up
  • Upgrading the current skins of basic trains (optional) (who, when)
I hope to meet y'all
- W3RQ01 (dario23 for LF players)
I might attend, but i'm not really like, on the livery team. But i am working on trains, two of which are the same type but have different liveries. I have been considering stealing from DLXtrains.
Doesn't matter if you are on the livery team or not, you're welcome :D
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 17:07
Maverick2797 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 16:44
This is already partially implemented. When you start the route programming, punch the TCB of the signal you started at. From there you can click "Finish route at end of NEXT section." This will only confirm the single section to the route and end the programming. Then you can name the route as normal, set ARS as * as a backup, and then set the route and enable Automatic Working. All without leaving the signal. Simples
I know that. What i'm saying is that the entire process should be automated. From signal to route. I don't want to fiddle with buttons for 50 seconds each 75 times for a new railway line (true story). I think that the community would rather have a mechanism which means they spend 5 second at each signal, making interlocking less of a dreaded chore and more of a checklist item.
I think this is (mostly?) the goal of the route_prog_rework branch.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by doxygen_spammer » Post

Earlier I figured out that advtrains media files are licensed as CC-BY-1.0.
This turned out to be a mistake, the file advtrains/license_media.txt actually contained CC-BY-NC-SA-3.0 (which is non-free).

In the meantime, the file license_media.txt was changed to CC-BY-SA-3.0, without further notice.
So, was it a mistake that advtrains media was released under a non-free license?

In particular, may I distribute advtrains_dummy.b3d under a free license?
(I suggest CC0-1.0 OR CC-BY-SA-3.0.)
It is part of advtrains_attachment_offset_patch.

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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference

by W3RQ01 » Post

Important: due to give more choice i have modified the doodle poll by inserting more days and more timing options. Who has already compiled the poll, please check to have fill everything.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by orwell » Post

The media license is supposed to be CC-BY-SA-3.0. We agreed on using CC-BY-SA-3.0 many years ago. The mention of CC-BY-NC-SA is a residual that I forgot to change.

EDIT: namely, during a period of a few months in 2016-2017 media was restricted to CC-BY-SA-NC, until rubenwardy pointed out the unfortunate implications of the license choice to me. Since then, advtrains media has always been licensed under CC-BY-SA.

Of course, it is your right to publish any media under any license you want. Maybe note this down in the README file or somewhere else.
doxygen_spammer wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:42
Earlier I figured out that advtrains media files are licensed as CC-BY-1.0.
This turned out to be a mistake, the file advtrains/license_media.txt actually contained CC-BY-NC-SA-3.0 (which is non-free).

In the meantime, the file license_media.txt was changed to CC-BY-SA-3.0, without further notice.
So, was it a mistake that advtrains media was released under a non-free license?

In particular, may I distribute advtrains_dummy.b3d under a free license?
(I suggest CC0-1.0 OR CC-BY-SA-3.0.)
It is part of advtrains_attachment_offset_patch.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by doxygen_spammer » Post

Okay, thanks! I will use CC0-1.0 OR CC-BY-SA-4.0 then, to conform with the licensing policy of my code hoster. :)

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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference

by W3RQ01 » Post

The conference is going to be on Saturday 25 at 19:00 UTC

The link of the audio conference is going to be linked and posted 15 minutes before the start of the conference in this post

I hope to see you
-W3RQ01
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 16:11
It states in the LF wiki (i got access through my old wiki accounts) that exceeding capacity is a violation of the railway rules.

How do you measure capacity? Is there an equation you use?

I have come up with <amount of signals>*<multiplier>, where the multiplier is an arbituary number between 0 and 1, depending on how many green signals you want. The equation gives you the amount of trains allowed on that section of the line.
The rule mainly targets rail lines that are shared by multiple operators. However, what is considered "capacity" is somewhat subjective, as shown below.

Regardless of that rule, what you wrote would, in an ideal situation, be mostly correct, although it is, in reality, much more complicated.

In theory, you could put (n-1) trains on a line, with n being the number of signals (there could be exceptions, such as having more than one signal on a route, but these situations are quite rare). However, in this situation, only one route can be set at a time, meaning that there is only one train moving, and all other trains have to wait. You would, therefore, generally want (n/2) trains that are spaced equally from each other, so every train can set the route ahead of it. You would, therefore, choose 0.5 as the multiplier. However, then this is complicated by a few factors:
  • Trains spend different amounts of time traveling between signals, depending on the speed (maximum speed and acceleration, such as near stations) and the distance between the signals, the latter of which can vary significantly on a single line. This means that care needs to be taken to avoid making faster trains wait behind slower ones, and that, in some cases, there should be less than (n/2) trains as they would otherwise concentrate in places where signals are closer together while waiting for longer routes to be freed.
  • The layout of the stations (e.g. the number of tracks for the station, whether the station has passing tracks for express services or freight trains) and the use of the station (e.g. stop time, number of services for the station) can also affect how smoothly trains run on the line. For example, if two trains are too close to each other and both trains stop at the same station (and at the same track), the second train would need to wait for some time, with the length depending on the distance between the trains and the length of the time in which the train stops at the station.
  • Some lines are used by multiple services. In such cases, some scheduling may also be needed, otherwise you can have times where a particular section (in the sense of a part of the line, not interlocking sections) is left unused and ones where the section is used by multiple trains at a time. This factor is largely irrelevant for the capacity itself, but it is relevant for having trains run without unnecessarily stopping or braking (which is the idea behind that rule in the first place).
There is also a trains/km equation, which gives the amount of trains per kilometre permitted. (<amount of signals>/<gap between signals in m>)*<multiplier>.
Why is this a division though?
Second question: How are you supposed to interlock end-on stations? I have had multiple problems with ghost trains in these places.

Assume this setup:
Spoiler

Code: Select all

-
|
|
|T
|\
| \
|  \
|T |TS
|  |
↓  ↑
Spoiler

Code: Select all

E
|
+--- Q
|
|\
| \
| |
| +- P
| |
| V
|
+--- R
|
V
Place a signal at P and Q with the following routes:
  • P-Q-EOI
  • Q-R-(next TCB)
Also, how would you interlock the below variant?
Spoiler

Code: Select all

-   -
|   |
|   |
|TS  |TS
|\ /|
| X |
|/ \|
|T  |TS
|   |
|   |
↓  ↑
Each signal controls exit from the track and the input signal chooses which track trains go to.
Similar to the above setup.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 18:10
yw05 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 17:50
Regardless of that rule, what you wrote would, in an ideal situation, be mostly correct, although it is, in reality, much more complicated.
As are most things.
(n/2) trains that are spaced equally from each other, so every train can set the route ahead of it. You would, therefore, choose 0.5 as the multiplier. However, then this is complicated by a few factors:
I actually chose 0.75 but i don't think. I think 0.40 is a better number, as in tight sections, trains will be kept at slow speed as they see the signal past the signal in front of them.
I would suggest not trying to generalize things too much as you would either get inaccurate/irrelevant results or end up with things that are too complicated, as I have shown already. Having a general scheme is fine, but situations should be examined individually.

In addition to what I wrote in my previous post, if your system is complicated enough, I would suggest timing the services and using part of what you wrote (and some testing, obviously) to get an optimal result.
Spoiler

Code: Select all

E
|
+--- Q
|
|\
| \
| |
| +- P
| |
| V
|
+--- R
|
V
Place a signal at P and Q with the following routes:
  • P-Q-EOI
  • Q-R-(next TCB)
Thanks. I never used EOIs in my own setups. I made a section everywhere. What button do i press at Q for the EOI?
The one which finishes the route at the end of the next section. You need to set up a section for Q-EOI, but be careful if you extend the line in the future.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Blockhead » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 16:11
Second question: How are you supposed to interlock end-on stations? I have had multiple problems with ghost trains in these places.
Spoiler

Code: Select all

-
|
|
|T
|\
| \
|  \
|T |TS
|  |
↓  ↑
Where S is a signal and T is a TCB.
Back to basics: This is explained in my interlocking tutorial video.
56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 16:11
Also, how would you interlock the below variant?
Spoiler

Code: Select all

-   -
|   |
|   |
|TS  |TS
|\ /|
| X |
|/ \|
|T  |TS
|   |
|   |
↓  ↑
Each signal controls exit from the track and the input signal chooses which track trains go to.
Since a picture is worth 1000 words:
2trackterminus.png
2trackterminus.png (20.22 KiB) Viewed 1727 times
Note how I include TCBs around the central "X". This allows simultaneous arrival and departure, but maybe the ghost section bug will hit harder? I am more of an idealist anyway. Also note how you should punch the TCB before the end of the track and select the "end of NEXT section" option, which technically leads to EOI since there is no interlocking past the end of the track (same principle is covered in my video).
/˳˳_˳˳]_[˳˳_˳˳]_[˳˳_˳˳\ Advtrains enthusiast | My map: Noah's Railyard | My Content on ContentDB ✝️♂

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 03:23
56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 16:11
Also, how would you interlock the below variant?
Spoiler

Code: Select all

-   -
|   |
|   |
|TS  |TS
|\ /|
| X |
|/ \|
|T  |TS
|   |
|   |
↓  ↑
Each signal controls exit from the track and the input signal chooses which track trains go to.
Since a picture is worth 1000 words:
Image

Note how I include TCBs around the central "X". This allows simultaneous arrival and departure, [...]
Actually you only need two TCBs at the "X" for that purpose. Having four TCBs does make it look nicer though.
Blockhead wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 03:23
[Maybe] the ghost section bug will hit harder?
I use this setup at one of the stations, and it runs quite smoothly there since around October 2020, with only a few minor issues caused by irrelevant factors (minor coding errors in my LuaATC setup, specifically) - I have not yet experienced any problem with ghost trains.

Something (possibly) worth noting is that the signal before the end of the line will not support distant signaling as there is no signal at EOI. This is currently irrelevant though, considering that the feature is not upstream yet.
Last edited by yw05 on Tue Jun 21, 2022 15:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by Parnikkapore » Post

I've been using the interlocking examples from the Advtrains site, which show you how (and why) to place the TCBs.

Blockhead's tutorial is likely pretty good too.

In my experience, ghost trains usually mean broken track segments; maybe a TCB isn't properly added to a segment, the wrong side (A/B) got added, etc.

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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference (Link)

by W3RQ01 » Post

Hello everyone,
the conference will start at 19:00 UTC (21:00 CEST)

The meeting platform is Jitsi meet, no download required, just put the following link in your browser and wait for my authorization to let you in.

Link of the meeting: https://meet.ztn.sh/AdvtrainsLTConference

-W3RQ01
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

Ok, i have a serious issue here.

The track model has no clips. This means that the steel will fall off when loaded by a train, as the adhesive surface for what i think is glue is too small to withstand the weight of a train.

This means that all servers must stop ALL their rail services as there is a serious risk of derailments. (I'm joking here, the glue seems to be extremely strong)

Another risk is that some tracks are seperate, and not wielded together. This means that eventually, the tracks may slip out of place as in the pictures below.
screenshot_20220626_100748.png
screenshot_20220626_100748.png (983.42 KiB) Viewed 1544 times
Track joints above, what they may cause below
The attachment screenshot_20220626_100748.png is no longer available
Can we work on wielding tracks together such that these incidents could not occur?

Edit:

The E231 derails, destroying the track:
screenshot_20220626_100948.png
screenshot_20220626_100948.png (170.2 KiB) Viewed 1544 times
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by W3RQ01 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 21:38
For the next meeting:

- Arrange a deadline for the end
- Arrange a note-taker
- Arrange a topics list
The deadline maybe could be a bit extreme, as orwell said in the 2nd conference we have limited free time.

For the note-taker, yes good idea.

And for the topic list i don't understand what you mean. If you're talking about a list of the things to do we said that for now all the resources needs to be put in the painter tool. If you're talking about a list of the topics that are going to be discussed in the next conference, i'll post a list don't worry
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Re: Advtrains Livery Team Conference (Link)

by W3RQ01 » Post

W3RQ01 wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 18:36
Hello everyone,
the conference will start at 19:00 UTC (21:00 CEST)

The meeting platform is Jitsi meet, no download required, just put the following link in your browser and wait for my authorization to let you in.

Link of the meeting: https://meet.ztn.sh/AdvtrainsLTConference

-W3RQ01
Thanks everyone for the participation, i hope that you enjoyed it and when we'll have some updates we will do another conference (hopefully with you orwell) :D
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by W3RQ01 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:17
W3RQ01 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:12
And for the topic list i don't understand what you mean. If you're talking about a list of the things to do we said that for now all the resources needs to be put in the painter tool. If you're talking about a list of the topics that are going to be discussed in the next conference, i'll post a list don't worry
I mean before the meeting, we agree on a series of topics, something like this:

- Reasons Advtrains has lag
- Ways we can fix these
- Ways we can add stuff to Advtrains
- Tea break with biscuits
- Server admins: Ways to stop building horrible world-edited lines (such as the Pr-w and Pr-w2 on my server, which are a single-level straight viaduct very high up)

But yes, the note-taker should also make a to-do list (Remove LuaATC because of lag, remove the trains as they cause lag, and delete rails, as their existence may cause lag).
Yeah i think that we're already doing something like that with the topics list prior every conference
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by 56independent_actual » Post

💥🚄
Last edited by 56independent_actual on Sun Jan 15, 2023 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mod] Advanced Trains [advtrains] [2.4.1]

by yw05 » Post

56independent_actual wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:17
I mean before the meeting, we agree on a series of topics, something like this:

- Reasons Advtrains has lag
- Ways we can fix these
- Ways we can add stuff to Advtrains
- Tea break with biscuits
- Server admins: Ways to stop building horrible world-edited lines (such as the Pr-w and Pr-w2 on my server, which are a single-level straight viaduct very high up)
There was a topic for the previous conference (livery system). However, this is a large topic involving a lot of details, and different people have different ideas. The consequence is that you can't create a detailed topic list because
  • This would likely lead to discussions outside the conference.
  • You don't know what people have to say / what ideas may come up during the conference.
  • You don't know how long it takes to discuss each aspect (which is generally longer than expected. Every conference so far lasted over two hours)
Taking specific points from your list (as an example), there are multiple problems.
  • Lags (and bugs in general) often requires a lot of research and experimentation. It will also mainly be relevant to people who know the relevant parts of advtrains well enough to be able to fix it. Things will unlikely go further than "I could try to fix this issue".
  • Discussions on features (regardless of whether it is only proposed or implemented) could take enough time for its own conference, as seen in the case of the livery system. Minor features can be implemented directly without holding conferences.
  • Server maintenance and extra content are usually not relevant to the development of advtrains unless these are significant enough. These also tend to lead to bug reports or feature requests, which are mentioned above.

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