Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

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captpete
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Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Tue Feb 28, 2017 03:54

This is a new project (one of two) I'm working on for my private (family) server. Monpazier was a Bastide (Plannned, Geometric Town) founded by Edward the First (of England) to protect his territory in Gascony in 1284. You can read more about it in Lecture Notes of the Faculty of Architecture at the University of Melbourne, #705-117 "Culture & History of Urban Planning" ©1999 by C.M.Gutjahr. It's a freely accessible pdf on http://artserve.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bycountry/italy/rome/popolo/melbourne.planning/Part4-Medieval_Cities.pdf page 23.

My project will be a faithful (1m=1block scale) representation of the original design, which, of course, never goes as planned. There is no Map or Schematic yet, it's a work in progress and I hope to eventually create an accurate Map of the area from DEM (Digital Elevation Model) files if I can get the "realterrain" Mod working. It's close to the 200m x 400m original plan with fairly close street and building block sizes. The Cathedral , wells, Market (just orange wool blocks for now) and building blocks (marked by fences for now though I have built the low class/laborers row houses next to the town walls) and streets (red and yellow for major and dirt roads (feldweg from the "cottages" mod) with Dark Grey Wool showing where the town walls will be.

I'll attach a downsized screencapture (my monitor is 1920x1200) from above the clouds and if anybody want's a schematic of a row house let me know - they're pretty simple and a downsized (to fit in a Monpazier building block of 7mx21m) version of middle-class "maison" city townhouses of the 13th Century.

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screenshot_20170227_221335.jpg
Monpazier
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by twoelk » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:39

most interesting!

A long time ago I did a little research about the development and origins of grid patterns in city layout designs along the baltic coast as background info for a little city model of Lübeck I was making for an exhibition that compared grid or other regular geometric plans of cities.

Research has found out a lot more since and city design seems to have been a lot more pragmatic in reality than all them theories of ideal city design seem to suggest. The paper you linked is somewhat out of date in places besides having an overly romantic view of some of the natur loving savages of old. As such I would probably dismiss quite a lot of the conclusions concerning the vanishing and reinventing of the idea of urban life in Europe - but then again the lecture is almost 20 years old and written far away from Europe so that the resources in reach may have allready been somewhat out of date at the time.

I have been working on a similar project for quite some time although placed about a millenium earlier or so. In fact I decided to place a city block in my roman colonial city based on the design of Olynthos in northern Greece. One of the major problems I have is to individualize the buildings enough to stop it from getting too boring.

Maybe someday I'll finally start another project I dream of and then I'll build a city of the Hanseatic League based on designs typical for the southern baltic coast. A nice gothic city of red bricks in a similar historic timeframe as your project.

So ... do we get more pictures? More info on the design? Will your houses be useable for the Villages mod?
 

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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Thu Mar 02, 2017 03:28

OK. lots of progress on this project. I've finished most of the row houses, except for the Market Square, and finished the avenues, and most of the street lighting. Referenced to The Architectural Guidance Blog at http://architecturalguidance.blogspot.com/2008/04/medieval-town-planning.html. I'm including a new reduced-size screenshot and a couple of schematics (mts format) of the lower-class/laborer/farmer (wattle & daub) houses next to the City walls and the middle-class/artisan/shopkeeper/tradesman houses. Remember these are roe houses and if you use them they share a common wall (lot size 7mx21m - the houses all are 8m wide so 2 houses sharing a wall are 14m - allow 1 extra node for the end wall of the row, i.e. the Monpazier farthest building blocks for 10 houses are 71m not 70m). These are all my creations so "Do What The F You Want" with them. I will do double lots for the rich guys later as I've seen some in the real Monpazier. These will work for ANY Bastide you want to model.

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Monpazier_20170301
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MonpazierLowerClassHouse_1_0.mts
Monpazier Lower-Class House
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Monpazier Middle-Class House
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Thu Mar 02, 2017 14:39

Re:TwoElk
Thanks for the post.

Yes, I realize that the "ideal" view of Medieval urban architecture was never true in real life. Looking at modern Mompazier though shows how close it could be implemented. I plan to try and "re-build" some of the houses as happened over time but adhering to the building block layout so as to create a more interesting city, using modern Monpazier as inspiration. I may do other cities with other plans such as circular, linear, etc. Since this is a family project (my daughter played the SimCity, etc. games and also enjoys city planning) there will be changes once it's on our private server.

Interesting about your Greco-Roman project. Their "insulae" being a early representation of apartment building. Hanseatic League Gothic would be a real challenge I think, and could be quite beautiful. Hope to see some of your work here.

Since there is a 3 file limit on attachments I'll try to organize them for posting. I already posted the 2 basic houses schematics. They are fully furnished and I've re-built them several times before releasing them. I'd need to create several more reflecting different trades and shops and maybe a Manor before they could be used for mg_villages. The Market Square especially. The Cathedral is a bit grand for Monpazier and I didn't "build" it - it's a MC schematic, from the many I have for reference, that fit the space so I used it but it's too grandiose so I may build one closer to the scale of the modern Monpazier one if I can verify it's close to the original design.

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Lower Class Houses
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Middle-Class Houses
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by twoelk » Fri Mar 03, 2017 03:46

nice,
I had to figure out first though what mods I needed to add when I loaded the schematic files.
The houseplan you linked seems to be from the "maison romane" in Cluny of 1091. The oldest of three of a similar timeframe. You seem to have decided to build over the courtyard and rotated the roofs by 90° to fit the town design. :-D Actually there are quite a lot of remains of romanesque houses in Cluny. It seems the design of these early town houses is related to examples from Italy and indeed does show some resemblance in layout to ancient roman shop based houses.

I added some schematic files of my roman town project that, if you take away the porches, are almost too medieval in design ;-) Maybe you can adjust some of my ideas for your project. They are far from finished so are rather bare. Three of the houses share the same basic floor plan but have been designed to look different from the outside.

Although similar designed houses seem to have been widespread in France, the inner layout of the Cluny houses seems to be more sophisticated than those of Monpazier which seem more similar to floorplans found in northern Germany, England and related regions. Considering the foundation this seems to be logical for Monpazier.

Looking at modern Monpazier I guess not much of the foundation time can be seen by a brief glance from the streets.

Hope your daughter enjoys the research and reconstruction - doing this with minetest is really fun - maybe we have a future city layout designer here :-P
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Sat Mar 04, 2017 22:26

You can see which mods are used by viewing the mts file in a text editor (read-only - you don't want to change anything!) or a Hex editor if you have one. The Nodes used are plain text in the file.

I have since changed the Middle Class house to use Moreblocks "Stone Bricks" (moreblocks:grey_bricks) as they are a better match. Hint: use the Circular Saw mod for stairs, slabs and roofing. I have VenessaE's DreamBuilder modpack and also darkages and xdecor mods which should cover the basics.

I am currently working on the Market Square - the arches are a trial as seen in the modern pictures of Monpazier, especially the corners allowing a mounted cavalryman to enter the square.

I have also found out the charter for the Bastides provided the stone and wood for the buildings so I am replacing all the lower class wattle and daub houses with middle class stonebrick ones.

Still plugging away on researching St. Dominiques church. The current incarnation looks like a patchwork to me but I can't seem to find a older image to compare it to. Are you aware of any similar churches with plans online?
 

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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Sun Mar 05, 2017 18:51

OK, here's the arcaded Market Square with the unique corners allowing a mounted cavalrymen to enter the square without dismounting from his horse. Screenshots and Schematic attached.

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Monpazier Market Square looking NE
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Monpazier Market Square looking SE
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MonpazierMarketSquare_1_0.mts
Monpazier Market Square
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by twoelk » Wed Mar 08, 2017 01:14

captpete wrote:...
Still plugging away on researching St. Dominiques church. The current incarnation looks like a patchwork to me but I can't seem to find a older image to compare it to. Are you aware of any similar churches with plans online?


Indeed only few churches are still in their original form. It's one of the reasons I love looking at old churches. In the begining one understands nothing and is amazed at what appears to be a wild jumble of materials, styles and plans. Then when after some closer inspection the building slowly reveals it's story, one can almost hear the long gone people discussing new plans, repairing damaged areas and adding the one or other detail with good humor. This is what makes many churches look so alive and lived with.

St. Dominiques of Monpazier has had it's share of history and shows it. I have only had a few glances at some pictures and must admit I never visited the closer area. The closest I ever came was when I travelled from Bordeaux to Carcassonne by train a long time ago. So my brief diagnosis from afar:

It seems the church started similar to others of the region, purpose and timeframe as a single nave, flat ending gothic church with a short transept in the east with the floorplan resembling a latin cross. There may have been a double tower facade planned in the west but this seems to have been left for later. The nave has been raised later so the vaulting is not the original. The whole idea was to built a church as fast as possible with not much care spent on decoration or complicated design. I would guess the first building may even have been unvaulted for a considerable amount of time, probably with the timbers visible from below. Some damage was done to the church during some military events after which it seems the walls became higher and the current vaulting was added. Although a choir was planned and money collected for, it seems they did not add an extra choir bay but rather spent the money to furnish a choir in the existing eastern part. To the east finally the flat wall was taken down and replaced by a polygonal apse attached to the choir bay. The chapels between the supports of the nave where late additions and thus the arches opening to them would need to be investigated as to their age. In the west only a single tower on the northern corner was erected. The current upper part of which seems to be somewhat younger.
The church seems to have arrived pretty much at it's current form before the Huguenot unrests in France.

If you are still interested I could add some links once I am at my pc at home again. This is mostly from memory of what I read and saw in the last days without having much time to go into a detailed research, hope you found more :-)
 

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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Mon Sep 24, 2018 23:47

New update on this old world map. I found an actual sketch map of the town from 1284 by a Portuguese spy in the pay of the King of Spain about a year ago. I have since re-envisioned the town based on that map and created a game on my private server (not on the public internet).

The game part was to create town houses and farming gardens as specified by the actual charter from the English King.

transliteration of part of the Charter

You are allocated a plot within the town to build your own house, and you also had a ‘potager’ (an allotment-sized patch of land beneath the walls to grow fruit and veg), access to a field to cultivate crops or raise livestock and the right to go hunting and foraging in the woods beyond. Any surplus to your and your family's needs could be sold or bartered in the market, held every week in the central square.

Edward I of England was also Duke of Aquitane and built hundreds of basties, especially along the Garonne Valley in a checkerboard layout of 400x200m based on a standard module with house plots of 8m frontage and a depth of 24m. The streets 6m wide and the lanes at the rear of houses were 2m. Walls and fortified gates were added after the start of the Hundred-Years War. The King would give you a plot in the town for your residence, supplying the stone and wood (which I placed for mt clients in a special-looking chest) on each town lot. You claimed your lot, unlocked the chest, used invsaw to create the otherwise shaped blocks you needed of wood and stone/bricks and then got a garden plot to plant crops. There were 5 different floor plan "suggestions" (see attached) which could be built and schematics were provided (that's where handle_schematics came in). The color scheme was the three basic Gothic colors of red/yellow/blue. The ground floor was for commerce or trade, the upper floor was the family residence and servants, if any, were in the attic. The Market Square houses were all npc vendors who you could trade with for your additional "needs". You could "rent" the existing houses if you wished.

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The Medieval Dwelling
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by captpete » Mon Oct 29, 2018 17:30

I've had to stop working on my worlds for awhile. I have had AMD (Age-related Macular Degeneration) for about 10 years now and recently had a bout, affecting my left eye, of the "wet" variety. This has drastically affected my sight in that eye - I can not see very well at all and the darkened area in the center is very large. I have had several needles in my eye to stop the progress and my last one was a month ago with my next scheduled for December. I have no depth perception and glasses can not correct for AMD so I got a larger monitor ("32") and am trying to work with that. My right eye is currently the dry version and the darkened area is basically a shadow so I can still see out of that one as long as I have very bright light.

The crux of the matter is that I am still working on the worlds but It will be slow going from now on. I have three current projects: Athens, Greece in the 5th Century BC; Posedonia/Paestum, SW Italy in the 3rd Century AD; and the Bastides (Planned Cities) of Dordogne\Lot-et-Garonne, France in the 13th Century AD. You can see the Athens one (preliminary) here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19969. Thanks for your support and patience.
 

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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by TumeniNodes » Tue Oct 30, 2018 01:39

Very sorry to hear about your situation captpete, I know there is not much which can be done about that particular ailment.
I will say that I love the work you have done...
I have meant to ask about the texture pack used in your shots. I find some of it interesting

Take care
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Re: Monpazier, Guyenne, 13th Century

by voxelproof » Tue Oct 30, 2018 05:11

captpete wrote:I've had to stop working on my worlds for awhile. I have had AMD (Age-related Macular Degeneration) for about 10 years now and recently had a bout, affecting my left eye, of the "wet" variety. This has drastically affected my sight in that eye - I can not see very well at all and the darkened area in the center is very large. I have had several needles in my eye to stop the progress and my last one was a month ago with my next scheduled for December. I have no depth perception and glasses can not correct for AMD so I got a larger monitor ("32") and am trying to work with that. My right eye is currently the dry version and the darkened area is basically a shadow so I can still see out of that one as long as I have very bright light.

The crux of the matter is that I am still working on the worlds but It will be slow going from now on. I have three current projects: Athens, Greece in the 5th Century BC; Posedonia/Paestum, SW Italy in the 3rd Century AD; and the Bastides (Planned Cities) of Dordogne\Lot-et-Garonne, France in the 13th Century AD. You can see the Athens one (preliminary) here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19969. Thanks for your support and patience.


My best thoughts are with you. Thanks for your wonderful work, all the more impressive that your health conditions make such a serious obstacle to overcome. I think that you should consider whether the time spent before monitor doesn't make them worse and if so, limit the time of your computer sessions (I know by myself that long hours spent on watching monitor display can be very eye-wearing). Take my sincere wishes of good health and recovery :)
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