Minecore: An Engine

[Scarecrowman]

+ Spoiler

Hello fellow survivalists and modders. I'm The Scarecröwman and my team and I have a idea.

You don't know me. I'm not originally from the Minetest forums. I was first brought to the idea of sandbox games when Minecraft was in it's Alpha stage. I went by the alias of Zurich_Antiock on the Minecraft forums, where I had started a suggestion topic called "The Nether Update Thread". In there was suggested, certain concepts such as "charred-bone archers", which eventually brought "Wither Skeletons' to the table, among other things. This suggestion thread led to the The Nether Expansion Mod, led by FISH2 and his group of developers. That mod led others to developing the current Betweenlands mod for Minecraft as well as Astral Sorcery at Curseforge, which I am currently involved in. My connection with them lends me connections to a lot of other people in that forum.

A few skilled friends and I have been discussing a serious objective to begin a new Sandblox, (block style sandbox) game-engine project, using Minetest's current mainframe. A 'fork' in other words, though we don't care for that term... because it implies a lot less quality than what we're intending. But we want to make this a major project, in hopes that it would include certain features that would bring the nostalgia of Beta Minecraft back, with an emphasis on creation with features tailor-cut specifically for creators who want to make something of their own with little knowledge.

As we all know, Minecraft has shaken the foundations of sandbox gaming as well as redefined gaming in a creative way, -and there are several open source alternatives. We've seen some fairly decent attempts to capture the essence of what Minecraft does while catering to the non-mainstream creative gamer. As of yet, however, there seems to be a lack of parallel quality when looking at these open-sourced versions. We understand, these versions are free and people are donating their time to make them possible.

But most of all, we want to keep the goal aimed at the same quality level of professional game studios.

We're doing this for two reasons:
1.) Everybody seems to want a more creative open-source mining sandblox game of Minecraft's feel and style. Both Minecraft and Minetest have proven that open-sourcing a game and building it with community support is successful.
2.) Minetest has brought everyone closer to the end goal. Its an amazing project, and we want to secure that it has a future in more than one place.

We stand for everything that put the tools of development in the user's hands, allowing for complete creative freedom to make things without hindrance by personal ideals, unnecessary stipulation or legalism. It is fortunate for us that open-source communities make this possible. Therefore, we have begun pulling resources together to build a 'fork' engine based off of Minetest's main code, but it should be noted that we are also looking at other avenues of opportunity as well. We also want start a more specific community, whose focus is open-door policy between developers and the developing users. Here are some points of progress that we've made since we started at the end of December.



We have not really touched Minetest's engine, yet. There are many many loose ends that must be tied up in order to have a decent starting platform for our project. This means we've been talking a lot about how our engine will be refined in order to focus on customization by creators and developers while seamlessly allowing for game-play and game-play functions. We have a lot of work cut out in this particular segment of our development path and need all the help we can get. We have been talking to several potential coders and programmers from various sources who are interested in what we're doing, but only three have come forward to assist in our efforts. We'd love to hear from anyone who is interested in becoming part of our development team, programmers of any language, but particularly C++, Lua and Java.

We don't have a lot of specifics, right now, because we're getting lots of counsel on this, and looking to build a team. But here are some of our ideas for what we're wanting to do:

We are considering the possibility of starting from scratch, or using other source-builds outside of Minetest, but if we choose to stick with Minetest, our first objective will be to clean up the source code of Minetest. Which means lots of re-scheming, renaming and removing of unnecessary elements. Included in this phase is simple optimization techniques aimed at greatly reducing CPU and Video workload. Our intention would also be to preserve compatibility but we are willing to break compatibility for the sake of optimization and improvements.

Target platforms from the start will include support for Linux, (of course,) and also Windows, *(both 32 and 64 bit,) but our objective is to reach all PC platforms and Android platforms in the future.

Our goal is to get the engine to a solid bare-bones state, equipped with all the functions creators could hope for when building and modding for their games. This includes, but is not limited to, the goals of: Improved, better organized GUI functions, Voxel-based crafting, support for multi-maps in a subgame, a flexible mob API focused on Optimization, emphasis on Immersion and Graphical Atmosphere, such as detailed shaders like colored lighting and shadowed leaves, -as well as intuitive techniques that expand and refine LOD, (Level of Detail).

In addition we have plans for a fully playable base survival game complete with a story line, three dimensions, quality sounds and music, mobs and NPCs, and much other content serving as examples for every usable function available in the engine. This will be in place so that when development enters its final stage, the focus will shift from developing the engine to developing mods for the engine.

Introducing the "Infernium" Block, to be used comparably like redstone but with many differences:



Inventory GUI Concepts, -we're wanting to add a light theme and dark theme respectively.



Also we are very heavily considering the possibility of manufacturing official creation software to work alongside Minecore. These would be used for customization and mods, such as dimension creation, mobs and story line workshop for beginning users unfamiliar with high-level programming, who still want to create decent mods.


Due to our policy concerning a Dev-Team to User-Base doorway, our objective is to heavily consider all suggestions, without bias, (except in the case that quality would be comprimised,) and to implement any code or content created by users that would make this engine a better piece of software.



They say a picture's worth a thousand words. To give you a sense of our quality, we have put together this showcase. It includes screenshots from presently chosen textures and graphics for the current build of the base game. These were 100% hand-crafted, scratch by us. They are not ripped from Minecraft. We started with a blank canvas. Although we are heavily inspired by the graphical influence of Minecraft, nothing here was pulled from any other person's work or copyrighted materials.









Take notice to some elements of lighting and shading we have already improved within the engine. These are unaltered images; non-photoshopped real-time enhancements.






Compare to original lighting in Minetest:



Because of the fact that we don't put off the things we can get right away, we have some tracks already composed for the Base Survival Game. They are a sneak preview of what's to come, and they speak for themselves. Have a listen:






The Scarecröwman - Head Facilitator and Multi-artist
Toby109tt - Modeller, Pixel Artist, Concepts Lead
numberZero - C++ Coder
D00Med - Lua Programmer, Pixel Artist
JAY? - Multi-Language Programmer


Special thanks to Contributing Spectators:

Octacian - Programmer, Watchdog
Burli - Programmer, Watchdog


Other ties and projects:

AngryPixel of the Betweenlands Mod for Minecraft
HellFirePvP's Team for the Astral Sorcery Mod for Minecraft
Summerfields Texturepack Project



There is a lot of work to do and we are looking for people who would like to help us.
If you'd like to send us a comment or question or offer any contributions, you can email us at:
lanterngaming.devteam@gmail.com

Our website is still in development, there isn't much there, but it will be up soon!
https://minecoredevteam.github.io/



We want to hear your thoughts on this project. We are always looking at advice and criticisms. Do any of you have any ideas or suggestions? Please comment below and stay tuned!!

I would also like to thank sofar and others for having said their piece at the beginning of this. It is always valuable insight.

Dear Minetest,

After much consideration, we have decided to take the idea for Minecore in a different direction. We've been told it would be a waste of our time to mess with the engine by some of you, (though we're not confident about that,) -so we are just taking word for it and ditching the idea of using MTE as the starting point.

The project will continue, though now at a much longer projected timeframe, as we are looking into developing our own engine with the help of friends from other arenas of the indie-gaming world.

This statement will be interpreted several ways; as a cop-out; as a cover in place of proof or legitimacy; an excuse to get out of dealing with harsh criticisms; emotional retaliation; but its none of those things. It's just a statement; take it however you perceive it to be.

It is true that we don't know everything about the Minetest engine and we're not 100% sure our ideas wouldn't work in a new subgame, but there are additional reasons effecting this decision.

Toby suggested the idea of doing this with me when we first met in October of last year and from first glance I thought it was the logical way to go. I figured it would be fun, too. We thought that by posting the idea here that we'd establish some support, but with the small amount it has generated from the development team, we feel it would be toxic to everyone. I can see why it was viewed as 'stealing' and we're sorry it came off that way, we just didn't think there would be any conflicts with the 'open-source' policy Minetest is rooted in. We do not want to steal anything and we no longer feel morally correct to be using Minetest as an engine-base.

As for the people who were interested and quite willing to help us, we are sorry to let go of Minetest, as well as for having unintentionally turned all of you into 'groupies'. We realize some of you are disappointed and others 'confirmed in your suspicions', but we thank you for your advice all the same as it helped us to make the right choice. We would also like to advise the user-base to pay close attention to the mistakes we've made here, so as not to repeat them. Such is for the best of the Minetest community.

On a lighter note, I want to emphasize that we always thought that the Minetest Development Team was making an amazing program, and have been succeeding for a long time. We hope they continue to succeed with unwaivering support from the community.

We truly did not mean to start an earthquake and have never meant to be a trouble to this community or its development or the relationships therein. We're just creative as well as passionate. We realize our original post may have come off egotistical and we're sorry for that too. Our intentions were pure. We must just be naive or need to fix our people-skills or something like that.

Well then, I guess this is 'the point of no return'.
Just to clarify though, we will not be using Minetest or its code. We will just continue our own projects, to include the Minecore project, and its concepts using other resources.

We really are not angsty about this outcome, so don't think that. We want Minetest to progress and that's partly our reasons for moving on.

If anything, we are just a little sad.

Thanks,
-Scarecrowman and friends

[toby109tt]

**EDIT**

Goodbye Qub³d.
It just wasn't meant to be.
Goodbye Scare, our friendship was amazing, while it lasted.
Goodbye Qub³d, it was a great attempt but I failed, we failed.
Sorry everyone.

Qub³d won't be happening.
I failed my promise but I tried so hard, a lot of our staff did.
But it just wasn't working out.

Sorry.

**Old post**

im happy to be part of this :D
and i cant wait to see other poeples opinions!

[maikerumine]

I support this project, and will help in little ways if needed. :) KUDOS to you all!

[Scarecrowman]

Thanks maikerumine! Let us know if you have any questions.

[rubenwardy]

On starting to read this post, I was excited and interested. However, I'm now wondering who you are and if you even have the ability to do the things you promise. Who are you? Do you have an prior CPP or Lua experience? What's the largest project you've made? Do you have any professional or degree-level experience?

The number of users that Minetest has induces a level of quality that we need to follow in terms of trying not to introduce bugs, which makes reviewing PRs rather difficult. There are very little unit tests which means that to ensure correctness you have to be maticulous in reviewing PRs which simply isn't possible.

Don't mean to be overally negative, I hope you succeed as it will likely help Minetest too. I've just got my hopes up too much over promises and plans to be bitten again

[Scarecrowman]

On starting to read this post, I was excited and interested. However, I'm now wondering who you are and if you even have the ability to do the things you promise. Who are you? Do you have an prior CPP or Lua experience? What's the largest project you've made? Do you have any professional or degree-level experience?

The number of users that Minetest has induces a level of quality that we need to follow in terms of trying not to introduce bugs, which makes reviewing PRs rather difficult. There are very little unit tests which means that to ensure correctness you have to be maticulous in reviewing PRs which simply isn't possible.

Don't mean to be overally negative, I hope you succeed as it will likely help Minetest too. I've just got my hopes up too much over promises and plans to be bitten again

Hey Rubenwardy,

You're right to be skeptical and we appreciate that. Actually I have had quite some experience working with teams that have made some impressive mods for Minecraft, such as The Betweenlands and more recently Astral Sorcery. I programmed an arcade style platform game called BloodOath that was featured on Pixeltunes Radio. I should put that game up somewhere for people to play as the old site is down... I think I will soon. That being said, I myself am a multi-artist with friends who know how to do the high-end level programming. We are hoping to get more attention so that we can build traction and find interested programmers both inside this community and outside of this community. They are out there, and we have both the resources and media skills to back them up.

We're not underestimating the level of work that is to be done here, but we know the flames of interest need only to be rekindled.

[benrob0329]

Why not make a good game for the engine, seeing as how it's doing better than ever, rather than forking it needlessly and trying to make a game on top of that?

[Scarecrowman]

Why not make a good game for the engine, seeing as how it's doing better than ever, rather than forking it needlessly and trying to make a game on top of that?

Well first of all, we're not really making a fork of it. We want to make it something new. You make a good point about working on a game for the engine, but as many of us have noticed, having seen from the engine, there are some functions missing that could have been added a long time ago.

I want to stress that we respect with high praise what Minetest developers have made and are only coming forward with this because we see the potential of what it can do and what it has done.

That being said, people have encountered certain walls when trying to make their mods, because the engine has not been able to allow for certain tweaks and that is what we are looking at. We want to focus on adding things that Minetest is currently missing, in addition to improving performance.

[BBmine]

So this is that secret project that octacian was working on when he didn't have time for Minetest. Cool!

[Byakuren]

My dissatisfaction with Minetest (Game) comes from the lack of systems with deep mechanics. Minecraft is sort of better about this, since you can do some level of engineering with redstone, hoppers etc., but it doesn't seem like the main focus. In MC I would normally get my fix by playing tech mods (including magic-themed tech mods).

How much focus is planned on these kinds of engineering be a long features?

Just to plug my own tastes, I like the style of Rotarycraft where the time-consuming part isn't mining blocks but actually figuring out your automation setups (aka the fun part).

[Byakuren]

Also, a must-have for me is that the licensing is a Free Software license (open-source as in GPL or MIT, but not as in Unreal Engine license), and probably the assets too (for example, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA, but not NC or ND). Will this be the case?

[octacian]

So this is that secret project that octacian was working on when he didn't have time for Minetest. Cool!

Nope. That project won't be heard of until my next video. I've barely done anything on this, although they claim that I've done a lot. Okay, maybe I've done a bit... but. Not nearly as much as I have on my secret project. Hint: It's a game. But, besides saying that it's going to be way cooler than anything MT-related, I will quit talking about unrelated things on Scare's thread.

Slightly more on topic... I'm interested in seeing how this project goes, and I have done a bit to help get it started I suppose. Decided to help get their website built, but that's probably all I'll be able to do on this project as I'll be very busy with others of my own.

[octacian]

Also, a must-have for me is that the licensing is a Free Software license (open-source as in GPL or MIT, but not as in Unreal Engine license), and probably the assets too (for example, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA, but not NC or ND). Will this be the case?

AFAIK the license will be the same as is the current license of Minetest, after all, it is a fork, which means that the licenses that it could be changed to are incredibly limited.

[roboto]

@rubenwardy,

Please keep in mind that we are NOT trying to compete with you and your fellow Minetest developers.

[Byakuren]

Also, a must-have for me is that the licensing is a Free Software license (open-source as in GPL or MIT, but not as in Unreal Engine license), and probably the assets too (for example, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA, but not NC or ND). Will this be the case?

AFAIK the license will be the same as is the current license of Minetest, after all, it is a fork, which means that the licenses that it could be changed to are incredibly limited.

Someone said it's not a fork:

Why not make a good game for the engine, seeing as how it's doing better than ever, rather than forking it needlessly and trying to make a game on top of that?

Well first of all, we're not really making a fork of it. We want to make it something new. You make a good point about working on a game for the engine, but as many of us have noticed, having seen from the engine, there are some functions missing that could have been added a long time ago.

I want to stress that we respect with high praise what Minetest developers have made and are only coming forward with this because we see the potential of what it can do and what it has done.

That being said, people have encountered certain walls when trying to make their mods, because the engine has not been able to allow for certain tweaks and that is what we are looking at. We want to focus on adding things that Minetest is currently missing, in addition to improving performance.

[GreenXenith]

Also, a must-have for me is that the licensing is a Free Software license (open-source as in GPL or MIT, but not as in Unreal Engine license), and probably the assets too (for example, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA, but not NC or ND). Will this be the case?

AFAIK the license will be the same as is the current license of Minetest, after all, it is a fork, which means that the licenses that it could be changed to are incredibly limited.

Someone said it's not a fork:

Why not make a good game for the engine, seeing as how it's doing better than ever, rather than forking it needlessly and trying to make a game on top of that?

Well first of all, we're not really making a fork of it. We want to make it something new. You make a good point about working on a game for the engine, but as many of us have noticed, having seen from the engine, there are some functions missing that could have been added a long time ago.

I want to stress that we respect with high praise what Minetest developers have made and are only coming forward with this because we see the potential of what it can do and what it has done.

That being said, people have encountered certain walls when trying to make their mods, because the engine has not been able to allow for certain tweaks and that is what we are looking at. We want to focus on adding things that Minetest is currently missing, in addition to improving performance.

It is most certainly a fork. https://github.com/MinecoreDevTeam/Engine

[Scarecrowman]

Also, a must-have for me is that the licensing is a Free Software license (open-source as in GPL or MIT, but not as in Unreal Engine license), and probably the assets too (for example, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA, but not NC or ND). Will this be the case?

Yes all of what we produce will be under a completely open-source variation license. No tricks. Same as Minetest.

About the interest in redstone-style applications as well as things like pistons, hoppers, rotary-craft, we have a lot of discussion going on for that but we are interested in suggestions as this is still being conceptualized. What I can tell you is that we know we want to implement a redstone-style technical element to the base game with concepts surrounding the new "Infernium" Block, due to be discussed in the near future.

And if some of the things you are looking for are not implemented into the base-game, they could be planned into mods and expansions either officially distributed or community-distributed.

Thanks for your question.

Also, not to differ with what Octacian said, as he is correct in the way he's looking at it. But Minecore will not be a small "fork" that branches directly off of Minetest. We are taking it into separate development to make it something of its own, without forgetting about its origin, -which is Minetest. Ours will not be connected to Minetest as a traditional fork in its final product.

[v-rob]

I'm just going to post my thoughts here. I don't want to come off as offensive, but I feel that I should say how I believe this is going to end up.

I can't say I'm interested in or like this project very much. Your goal seems to be the exact same as what the Minetest developers have in mind for the engine. You say that you have a huge mountain to climb. But where are you on that mountain? Celeron55 started at the bottom, and he, the developers and many other contributors have gotten high up this mountain. Some of these people have left Minetest, and others have joined in helping the project. These people have helped each other higher on this mountain, and Minetest has come very far because of it. Now here's how I see this project. Someone comes up this mountain, up the spot where Minetest is now, and says, "I'll take it from here", and begins to make their own trail.

I feel this way about all forks of Minetest like this, such as Freeminer. I know many times I've seen someone doing something and thought, "They're pretty bad at that. I should try, and I could do better." Do you know what happened every time? I was no better at it, and I was usually worse at it than the other person. That other person and I had the same goal, but I wasn't better. The other person was more capable at doing it. I feel that this is the same way. Sooner or later, you'll run into a cliff or a landslide in the path of your trail and realize, "I really can't do this as well as I thought I could."

I can definitely see how you're feeling. I highly encourage you to contribute to Minetest and to the development of the core, and maybe even become a core developer eventually, but I highly discourage forking it. Also, the Infernium, the textures, and the GUI are wonderful for a subgame, but they don't warrant a full fork.

[firefox]

i can understand that you may need your own fork to include experimental code that would not be accepted in the minetest engine, but in the end it would be far better to merge any working upgrades into the original engine.
many people have forked minetest to "make it better" and so far nothing better came from it...

if minetest doesn't have some things that "could have been implemented ages ago" it's most likely because no one did it or how it was done didn't match the quality standards.
another factor is probably the backwards compatibility to older versions, but it was already decided that version 0.5 will break that. so any of this "requires a re-write of the engine" stuff could be implemented for that version.

judging from what you have now, it's a texture pack and a subgame.
the updates you made on the shaders could also be merged. the reason why we currently have, whatever we have here, is because nobody had the skills to make it better.
if you have the skills, i guess the developers would certainly like you to work on this.

[D00Med]

Exciting to see that this is public now.
I think it doesn't matter if it's a needless fork or wasted time, because the worst that can happen is nothing, and we've already produced something worthwhile (although not much).

[Linuxdirk]

the updates you made on the shaders could also be merged. the reason why we currently have, whatever we have here, is because nobody had the skills to make it better.

Or because devs are afraid to break backwards compatibility to version 0.1 or because they are scared of adding 0.0002 seconds of lag.

This is obviously exaggerated, but a lot of PRs for new features are denied because of dubious backwards compatibility reasons that are not really present or could easily be circumvented or because of adding 1-2ms of load.

[celeron55]

We're trying to make Minetest better, and would welcome your efforts too.

Just saying...

[Scarecrowman]

I can't say I'm interested in or like this project very much. Your goal seems to be the exact same as what the Minetest developers have in mind for the engine. You say that you have a huge mountain to climb. But where are you on that mountain? Celeron55 started at the bottom, and he, the developers and many other contributors have gotten high up this mountain. Some of these people have left Minetest, and others have joined in helping the project. These people have helped each other higher on this mountain, and Minetest has come very far because of it. Now here's how I see this project. Someone comes up this mountain, up the spot where Minetest is now, and says, "I'll take it from here", and begins to make their own trail...

... But I can definitely see how you're feeling.

Thanks for this, V-Rob.

Its good to make it a point to express the true nature of how people who have been following Minetest much longer than I have explain what it looks like to make this announcement.

We figured it could look that way, and the last thing we want to do is offend anyone or come off rude. We are not trying to put off Minetest development and I myself am very interested in contributing to Minetest. It just all depends on what Minetest developers want.

Part of our reason for doing this is to bring more people from outside places into the Minetest arena. We are not trying to replace Minetest, we are only wanting to show people what we can do with it as well as make another stream of it available to newcomers. In order for us to do this, we have to make it a separate project of its own.

But we can only do this because it is open-source, which is extremely generous of the Developers and we DO NOT take that for granted. We will always hold the minetest team in a very high place of respect, as well as give them due credit for this.

[TumeniNodes]

I think one of the biggest things that is on the table right now is this,

If you have plans toward a different approach, this can be a good thing, and is definitely supported.
The important question is, will your team port upstream?

There may be areas of your teams development which will benefit Minetest / Minetest Game, which would be very nice.
At the same time, there may be times when your team could use the experience and knowledge of the Minetest core and game devs.
A fluent, and cooperative relationship between the two, can only benefit both and most of all... communities/end users.

So, as you see, there was already a hand extended from celeron55..., a door left open. It will just take an upstream gesture (when the time is right for you) to begin a mutual give and take.

(the rest of this is not all pointed directly at your group, it is to address some disgruntled comments in the thread)
Every open source group has it's disgruntled members, they carry a chip on their shoulder for what ever reason, yet still remain.
Developers very often have to make firm decisions, some make sense, some don't but it's all just part of the job.
There will come a time when your development team will have to reject PRs, or ideas or not even "reject" but to make decisions on what is critical to focus on and what is not..., will it break this or that (pandora's box is always sitting in the corner waiting to be opened), and then you to will have a couple of disgruntled followers, it is inevitable
It is understandable the people get upset when their ideas are rejected or, may turn into a long discussion, it's all part of the process :)

As far as breaking backward compatibility, it will come eventually, it's unavoidable to move forward but..., the hardest question is "when is it justified?" Well, the answer is, it is justified when you actually have enough solid material to justify it.

Developers have various end users down the stream. The average, general end user. The server owners. And the modding community.
Breaking backward compatibility is sure to piss off one of those groups for one reason or another, if it is viewed that the amount of gain from it, does not balance out the crippling impact on their end or, the work it will make for them.

Anyway, I tend to make long comments.
Wish you luck with this and, I am very hopeful these two groups can help one another, because that is one of the gestures which have kept the open source community, ever growing and ever advancing.

[toby109tt]

sorry if i dount explain well also sorry for the bad spelling, Scarecrowman is way better at this

The important question is, will your team port upstream?

if that means that we will port our PRs over to help minetest than yes

There may be areas of your teams development which will benefit Minetest / Minetest Game, which would be very nice.

that is true

A fluent, and cooperative relationship between the two, can only benefit both and most of all

yes thats also true

As far as breaking backward compatibility, it will come eventually, it's unavoidable to move forward but...

yes thats true we will do our best to keep it (but we will be forced to get rid of it if we whant to move on)

now about the communety well minecore's community will mostlikely not only be minetest users
but instead a user bace of minetest, minecraft and other sourses so we will have to please all communetis

I am very hopeful these two groups can help one another, because that is one of the gestures which have kept the open source community, ever growing and ever advancing.

wel yes we hope so too
again minetest will also benefit from this project in ways and we hope for a cooperative relation