[Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors needed!

Astrobe
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Astrobe » Tue May 15, 2018 18:53

Wuzzy wrote:I think almost everyone would agree that Minetest Game does not have a final goal which the player “must” achieve.


Why?

Not yet. It's 100% English-only. OK, other games are not better, but this will hopefully change when the Greatest Update (i.e. 0.5.0 ;-) ) comes out.


Yes, I was a bit "optimistic" there; just translating the node and tool names in 'default' is a huge pile of work.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Wuzzy » Tue May 15, 2018 23:26

just translating the node and tool names in 'default' is a huge pile of work.

That's simply not true.
The number of strings in MTG is tiny compared to other games. If you're fluent in the target language, it can be done in one afternoon. We're only talking about short easy words here.
Even Minetest itself has more strings than MTG, for all the settings alone.
MTG has no story, no help texts, no dialogs, etc. which would easily blow up the number of strings, so the amount of text is very small.

You obviously have never seen Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, Widelands or 0 A.D. Those are games which are very text-heavy and story-driven, they also include also technical terms, so they will take much longer to fully translate.
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by twoelk » Wed May 16, 2018 12:08

Astrobe wrote:
Wuzzy wrote:I think almost everyone would agree that Minetest Game does not have a final goal which the player “must” achieve.


Why?

because it is a sandbox per design! and honestly I think it should stay that way. rather I would suggest to include other games to highlight the possabilities of the engine.

mtg itself could do with more ingame information though and maybe even hints to sites that provide more info.
it could include more help text and "about minetest" information availiable from within the game and above all stuff that mobile device users can access.

many players will never look into any folders installed (they might not even be able to), they will just play the first game they come along and thus this game needs to inform them that there may be more that they might like out there for free.

i could imagine this could be done by books containing the more extensive information while maybe pictures or billboards hanging in structures like temples or dungeons near spawn might contain brief info or slogans that can point to places of more information not only ingame but also including links to minetest on the internet. As the user will have to copy these links manually they ought to be short and easy to remember such as the minetest homepage.

as to the showcasing games to include in the download this might be better of in a discussion of it's own.

the job of mtg should be to guide the first time player a little in a more playable fashion than a tutorial could. this should not only be in the playing itself but also present in the code. the code of mtg should showcase official "best practise" solutions and should include more basic comments to help modders imho.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Wuzzy » Wed May 16, 2018 12:37

You mean something like my Help modpack? :D

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15912&p=240152
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15224&p=226434

I have no illusions this will ever be added to MTG, nor do I care.
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by twoelk » Wed May 16, 2018 13:40

indeed
or something similar
and you should care
because it is a good idea
and iirc i suggested so in the past

(ps i have those two mods present in all my local worlds since those mods exist)
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Astrobe » Wed May 16, 2018 14:16

twoelk wrote:because it is a sandbox per design! and honestly I think it should stay that way.


I think there is a profound misconception here: the signature feature of MT is not the sandbox world. The signature feature of MT is a fully modifiable world. Very few other games allow that and that's also the very reason why we have to "endure" block-y voxels.
So in theory, we could discard completely the "sandbox design" without compromising MT's core concept.

A second misconception is that the concept of sandbox is not mutually exclusive with the concept of goals.

From the wiki for MTG:

"Minetest Game has a focus on creativity, building and exploring worlds, rather than being a challenge, so the gameplay naturally is sandbox-style"

What is hiding behind this sentence, whether you like it or not, is not that there are no goals in MTG. On the contrary, they are even listed: build, explore, farm.

It's not a design choice but a technical constrain: you can't do what is not supported. Remove the farming mod and you can't farm (except for apples maybe). Add bows and birds and you can hunt birds.

A sandbox game doesn't have zero goals. It has various possible goals.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by twoelk » Wed May 16, 2018 14:54

LOL - I'm pretty much with you there
my experience just is that most "players" do not consider "creativity, building and exploring worlds" a goal worth pursuing.
give a modern kid a box of building blocks or lego and most will look at you irritated and ask what they should do or where the building instructions are.
"do or build whatever you want" is a pretty difficult task for most casual players and indeed requires too much creative thinking for most to be enjoyable. The members on the forum here are not normal casual players but people that have looked for more information. from my experience the average player on a popular server may never visit the forums - or even care to

my problem is that a kid might download some version of minetest from some store and just starts playing and I'm pretty sure most mobile device players don't have a clue or maybe even care that minetest is about modding. MTG might be the only game they ever play locally and from playing just that they never learn there may be more accessible freely to them.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Fixer » Thu May 17, 2018 10:42

( 30 years later they realise they needed minecraft-beta like game :} )
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by llamatea » Sun Jun 03, 2018 07:07

Hello people! I have a problem with minetest-game, that just pops me out, both while playing and modding - steel. The fact that steel is made by cooking some iron ore in furnace when it needs huge blast furnaces and complicated processes feels just wrong. And also it just forces you to skip the whole step in technical development. There is a technical mod that, for it's sake, replaces steel with iron. Some of the points also go for the bronze production. Should copper even exist in the base game? Maybe, but (just) combining it with steel/iron also just breaks any immersion.

One thing I love in (modded) Minecraft is that it's dead simple. It does many things right by not doing things. A great concept, that actually goes along with minetest-game. Minimum features, but those that are - beautiful, worked-out and inspiring.

While, yes, it might break a lot of mods, in the long run the community will only be thankful. It will, undenialbly, spark the creation of multitude of technical mods, especially related to metal production. And v0.5 will be a perfect point for such a massive change.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Krock » Sun Jun 03, 2018 08:52

llamatea wrote:The fact that steel is made by cooking some iron ore in furnace when it needs huge blast furnaces and complicated processes feels just wrong.

Welcome to the party.

llamatea wrote:Maybe, but (just) combining it with steel/iron also just breaks any immersion.

I suggest updating to Minetest 0.4.16 or wait for 0.4.17 (will be released soon). This weird craft recipe is solved since April 2017.

llamatea wrote:Minimum features, but those that are - beautiful, worked-out and inspiring.

Some people think that minetest_game needs more content.

llamatea wrote:And v0.5 will be a perfect point for such a massive change.

The backwards compatibility break of 0.5.0 is limited to the network. Too many mods exist to do extreme changes without providing at least (sarcasm incoming; looks at minetest.env: functions) six years of API compatibility for deprecated functions.
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Astrobe » Sun Jun 03, 2018 13:12

Krock wrote:
llamatea wrote:Minimum features, but those that are - beautiful, worked-out and inspiring.

Some people think that minetest_game needs more content.


Adding more stuff is not the only way to improve a game - it even can have the opposite effect. The tin/bronze experience should have given us some hints about that already.

I remember reading a conversation in the IRC logs in which someone claimed that more block types in order to let the players build more creative stuff. I claim that this is the "low" type of creativity. Bored with Lego? Here, a new type of brick. The higher type of creativity is making what you need with what you have. For instance, if you remove the stair block from the game, creative players would use slabs to make stairs. Removing stuff doesn't kill creativity, it actually makes it spark.

One can change the rules instead of adding more stuff. What if diamonds (or mese ores) are found only in mountains so high that they almost reach the sky? Now you give strong reasons to explore the world. mgv7 is just perfect for this because it can create those crazy mountains that are dangerous to climb and mine because of the risk of falling. All of a sudden you don't even need hostile mobs to introduce challenges and hazards.

What if obsidian can be found only on deep ocean floors? Substitute the weird buckets and lava cooling mechanics with submarine mining which combine the already existing breathing, flooding and low-G game mechanics. Does it ring a bell?

You don't need to add Space, it's already in the game.

I argue that it is vastly better than adding yet another world or another dimension or another ore. Use well what you already have first, then carefully extend.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by paramat » Sun Jun 03, 2018 22:55

> Well, paramat is basically the director of MTG

No :) just more active than other devs, and we have a new and active dev Ezhh (Shara) who is excellent and good with playability issues, most of the recent improvements have originated with her, even if i coded them.
I really couldn't 'direct' MTG anyway and i disagree with having a director for MTG, although that is good for other games.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Fixer » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:38

The tin/bronze experience should have given us some hints about that already.


Have to agree here, unless bronze/tin is planned to be used in future expansion of MTG into automation/machines/etc
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Astrobe » Tue Jun 12, 2018 18:22

Actually, meanwhile I have renamed "Tin" to "Aluminium" in my subgame, with the idea that bronze is actually the aluminium-bronze alloy which is slightly better than low-quality steel. Aluminium is much more usable than Tin, I think. One downside is that one might have to look over the anachronism - aluminium was purified only during the very late 19th century.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Sokomine » Mon Jun 25, 2018 15:44

Astrobe wrote:I remember reading a conversation in the IRC logs in which someone claimed that more block types in order to let the players build more creative stuff. I claim that this is the "low" type of creativity. Bored with Lego? Here, a new type of brick. The higher type of creativity is making what you need with what you have. For instance, if you remove the stair block from the game, creative players would use slabs to make stairs. Removing stuff doesn't kill creativity, it actually makes it spark.

In general that's very true. Even the old MC classic creative allowed to build amazing structures with just a handful of blocks. Yet with more detailed blocks - especially cut ones from moreblocks - smaller structures are possible. There can be more details at a smaller (more realistic) scale without having to hint at everything. New block types can provide an incentive for experienced builders to try to build with this new one and see what will look best with it. Players who can't build at all can at least add a nice homedecor door and window and thus hurt the eyes of passing players less than if they'd just put up their ugly cobble box with a hole as door.
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by meseking » Wed Sep 05, 2018 08:34

Hi, where can I find the link to minetest_game for 0.4.17.1
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by meseking » Wed Sep 05, 2018 09:24

I can't seem to find it anywhere
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by totya » Mon Sep 10, 2018 22:13

Hi!

I play with this (sub)game (built-in 0.4.17.1), and I have a question. This game contains "farming" mod (I don't know which version). My question is, the plant (for example: wheat) growing speed is depend on the time speed settings (default is 72) or not? Thanks!
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by DELTA_FORCE » Sun Nov 04, 2018 16:23

Before I reply, please note that the minetest_game isn't Minetest, it's just a game mode for the Minetest launcher. Basically, I don't think the default game (minetest_game) needs improvement beyond this point because over the years it has become a full game very surprisingly like Minecraft. My idea for a game is a very small, lightweight version with few materials and simple textures for easy and simple modding and for making texture packs. You would also use this for modifying, like installing texturepacks and mods like you could never before. I believe this new game should be called : minetest_simple. It also could be used for older and less capable computers, but thats unlikely as of now the world is making nearly every singly PC 64-bit with at least 2 Gigabytes RAM, so thats why I will disqualify minetest_simple as a game for less capable PCs. If your interested, write a reply on what should be in it or built in, like worldedit since many mod licenses allow it.
EDIT : Also, people would likely rather not play this version as like I said, very small and may not be too fun without mods or other add-ons but would be great if you are just introduced to LUA and need to make something simple.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Wuzzy » Sun Nov 04, 2018 17:11

@totya: I did a brief look at the source code and it looks like the time_speed is not affecting growth speed directly. However, sunlight is still important.

@DELTA_FORCE: The correct name of this game is “Minetest Game”, not “minetest_game”. But I agree, neither name is beautiful. ;-)

Basically, I don't think the default game (minetest_game) needs improvement beyond this point

Then version 5.0.0 will be disastrous for you.

because over the years it has become a full game very surprisingly like Minecraft.

Surprisingly? Minetest started as Minecraft clone, Minetest Game can't deny the influence either. Not exactly surprising to me. ;-) Anyway, it's still pretty different from Minecraft. There are major differences in gameplay: No sprinting, no mobs, no enchanting, no experience, no magic, no dimensions, no end bosses, no hunger (food heals you instantly), no status effects, no crafting table, bigger height limit, smaller horizontal limit, no anvil, fewer blocks, fewer weapons. Only the most raw basics are the same. But hey, at least it's not proprietary and owned by Microsoft! :D

If your interested, write a reply on what should be in it or built in, like worldedit since many mod licenses allow it.

Well, talk is cheap. The problem is, too many forces are trying to push Minetest Game in too many directions, often opoosing directions and the result is the mess that we have now. I am still waiting for a clear vision of Minetest Game to appear, but so far, I have seen none. I don't deny there are improvements over time, but most of them are really baby steps because any serious gameplay change is usually met with serious resistance and even if such a change made it through, it is only because of a long, hard and bitter fight on the battlefield that our generation knows as “GitHub”. Because of this, and various other reasons, I have given up any hope in working for Minetest Game.
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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by DELTA_FORCE » Sun Nov 04, 2018 22:48

Well, true. It does need improvement, bug fixes, etc.. I also meant by it not needing improvement is that it is only a base game (surprisingly to, considering how big it is), your meant to modify it to your hearts content.

But hey, at least it's not proprietary and owned by Microsoft! :D

True.
Remember, Minetest is meant to be modded, which is why all those things on your list (or at least everything except bosses) I don't count, as you can get mods for those right on the forums. And even if your not mod-savvy, their are many tutorials by friendly people to help you install them, so if you don't have anvils or mobs or potions or cars or guns or swords or mesecons or ANY of those mods, then you've only got yourself to blame, as they are great and if you really need it, then we can help. Also, I don't want to push Minetest in any direction, but for a stock game made by people who make nothing except for donations and still have to work, it's pretty darn good. BUT, if you want more just get a mod.

It's not too hard.

Also, I'm sad. You should still work in it, no one should change your opinion in that.
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by Lone_Wolf » Thu Nov 15, 2018 20:49

If I were to make a subgame by adding a few mods to Minetest Game and modifying a few of Minetest Game's mods would I have to use Minetest Game's license? Or would I be able to use any license I wanted too? (MIT would be my choice)
 

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Re: [Game] Minetest Game [minetest_game] - Contributors need

by sofar » Fri Nov 16, 2018 06:06

Lone_Wolf wrote:If I were to make a subgame by adding a few mods to Minetest Game and modifying a few of Minetest Game's mods would I have to use Minetest Game's license? Or would I be able to use any license I wanted too? (MIT would be my choice)


Take a look at how we did ITB: https://gitlab.com/sofar/insidethebox/t ... mods/doors

We are mixing code from MTG with other code. Each piece of code is identified with a copyright header and per mod we have a license file that says that the code is e.g. (in the above case for the doors mod) the minetest doors mod licensed MIT. But other mods have other licenses, e.g. `mech` is LGPL-2.1 (https://gitlab.com/sofar/insidethebox/b ... h/init.lua).

As long as you maintain license statements and copyrights, you can mix most licenses. There are a few exceptions to this, but things like MIT, BSD(2/3 clauses) and GPL licenses can be mixed in this way to form a "collective work" that is covered under multiple licenses.
 

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