Administration abuse

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jp
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Re: Administration abuse

by jp » Sun Aug 31, 2014 06:34

Sokomine wrote:Which in turn implies that players are expected to at least try to behave well on these servers.

Or rather : "try to behave in a manner which is compatible with the expectations of the admin". What is arbitrarily defined as a "good" or "bad" behavior doesn't often meet any logical criteria, but moral. There is no absolute truth to expect from morality, because its intrinsic nature is cultural & protean. Morality leads naturally to a botched manichaeism.

The nanny-ism, the surabondance of rules can also be stifling for players. Some puritans admins/mods are waiting for any microscopic opportunity to exercise their little bit of power they proudly have in the hands to offset some frustrations IRL... That's why the democratic poll could be a good thing.

To conclude, if I refer to the common rules, we can also criticize them. Two examples :

  • Griefing : for me, this act shoud be tolerated. Couldn't we place the responsibility for this nuisance to the owners who omitted to protect their buildings ? We might consider this risk as part of the game such as a zombie's attack. We are not in real life trying to punish someone for rob an house.

  • Dating : where is the crime ? The companionship is a positive thing in a world full of indifference and easy-distrust. We are not either in a old religious school being out conscientiously separating girls and boys to preserve our moral purity.
Non-exhaustive list... Note that I can be wrong, just my anarchist ideas ;)
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by Calinou » Sun Aug 31, 2014 16:08

“Dating” annoys everyone because it's mostly kids spamming in the chat. Again, the problem is mostly brought by the mobile clients.

If you tolerate griefing, then you imply protection is perfect: sadly, it isn't: there are tons of failures in every protection system (too small area, can drop sand over it, can pour liquids near it…).
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by Sokomine » Sun Aug 31, 2014 16:28

jp wrote:Or rather : "try to behave in a manner which is compatible with the expectations of the admin". What is arbitrarily defined as a "good" or "bad" behavior doesn't often meet any logical criteria, but moral. There is no absolute truth to expect from morality, because its intrinsic nature is cultural & protean.

Perhaps we can settle on "try to behave in a manner consistent with the rules. If you do not agree with the rules, go to another server". You're right that "good" and "bad" is a choice based on morale - and that's not universal. Yet these problems which arise from morality are seldom relevant for a mere Minetest server.

jp wrote:The nanny-ism, the surabondance of rules can also be stifling for players. Some puritans admins/mods are waiting for any microscopic opportunity to exercise their little bit of power they proudly have in the hands to offset some frustrations IRL... That's why the democratic poll could be a good thing.

Deciding on weather a player violated the rules and e.g. griefed or not is not always obvious. That's why I dislike automatic meachanisms like Landrush which - in its first version - reduced player's health when digging somewhere protected. This has fortunately been changed now. And players who griefed a handful of blocks may not be aiming at destroying all - they may just be having trouble with their clients or be very new. If you start a democratic poll too often, people will get less intrested in the polls and spend less time on investigating the offered alternatives. They might even be less forgiving on violations of rules than a moderator would. A moderator's job is to serve the playes and ensure that all may enjoy the game withhin the borders provided by the rules. This may require some talking about what is expected now and then.

jp wrote: Griefing : for me, this act shoud be tolerated. Couldn't we place the responsibility for this nuisance to the owners who omitted to protect their buildings ? We might consider this risk as part of the game such as a zombie's attack. We are not in real life trying to punish someone for rob an house.

People in RL seldom rob the walls of a house :-) (But then, they did...many historic castles and city walls where torn down and re-used as building material..). For me, personally, protection of buildings is important. The protection mod as such is only a tool saving trouble for moderators who don't have to constantly check all houses for potential griefings. A nice side-effect is that you can see who built what. But the right and duty for protection arise from someone having put effort into building something. That - and that alone - is what ought to stop people with the same mindset from even considerting randomly griefing the building. The need for careful modifications may arise if the environment is changed, and it might even be necessary to tear the building down and re-build it elsewhere. This does not apply to basic structures such as an ugly cobble box below even the standards of mapgen dungeons - the creators of such boxes can be glad if they're removed.
If you have a diffrent attitude, that is fine. You may enjoy life on Xanandu then. We will most likely not enjoy the same servers, as we have diffrent expectations regarding the rules. But that is fine. There is no need that we all play the same way. We just have to know about who expects what and use servers which match our expectations.

jp wrote: Dating : where is the crime ? The companionship is a positive thing in a world full of indifference and easy-distrust. We are not either in a old religious school being out conscientiously separating girls and boys to preserve our moral purity.

Dating is certainly not a crime. And even on servers where it's explicitly stated in the rules that it's not a dating server, nobody will mind if people date in private via /msg. It's just that dating-related chat on the public chat will be considered spam (=the other players do not want to read about that topic). There are also quite a lot of problems which may arise from dating - which the moderators on such a server are not willing to sort out for the players.

jp wrote:Non-exhaustive list... Note that I can be wrong, just my anarchist ideas ;)

There used to be a server called "F R E E D O M" which had no rules at all. That's fine as well :-) Just select a server that fits to the rules you like! There are enough out there :-)
A list of my mods can be found here.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by Minetestforfun » Sun Aug 31, 2014 17:49

@jp
I totally agree with you. My server has no Griefing and dating rules (it's accepted)
And it's a pvp server, if you don't protect your area, it's your fault.

@calinou
Destroy walls protected with usebug is a motivation for ban players.
Indeed, for sand and water, it's difficult to prevent this abuse... But if players make that, i think, they aren't good people for the server community, and they can be banned for this reason... (unless they are friend with the player's area, and it's a joke against him)

@sokomine
in fact, if the dating is done with the "/msg" or "notice" command, it's better
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by KLK » Sun Aug 31, 2014 20:29

I agree with all you guys, about dating and all this things. Every serve have their rules, and players have to respect them. All the time i was playing in xanadu i respected all the rules and players. What i dont agree is that people be ban because of somebody else fault, like it was in my place. Like one of you guys said, players have to proctect what they own, while i was playing i asked myself why there are proctetion tools in the game, in the case of xanadu there are proctetion blocks wich proctect your propities, so if you are robbed is you fault. That is what i think.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by Kilarin » Mon Oct 13, 2014 02:33

jp wrote:Griefing : for me, this act shoud be tolerated.

If you like destroying what other people build, please play on a different server than one that emphasizes they don't want griefing. I'm sure there are servers that emphasize player conflict where attacking other players strongholds is part of the game. But many servers emphasize building and not fighting. When you go onto those servers and destroy peoples constructions, you are just being a jerk. Some 8 year old kid puts hours of work into building something they are very proud of, then you come along and smash it because they didn't cover it adequately with protection blocks. What is there in that to make you feel big? And it's not really that much different when an adult puts hours and hours of work into a construction and the griefers spend 5 minutes tearing down the spot they missed protecting.
You want to play on an anarchy server, go play there, thats fine. But don't deliberately jump into a construction server just to get a thrill out of destroying please.

jp wrote:Dating : where is the crime ?

Actually, since the admin's can't know the actual ages of those participating on the servers, this really CAN be a crime. But it really comes down to the particular servers rules. If the server rules say "No chatting song lyrics", well, it's their server, so cooperate or play somewhere else.

I'm not certain what happened to you on the the Xanadu server, but I've been playing on there for some time now, and I haven't seen the Admin's do ANYTHING I thought was abusive while I was paying attention. There certainly have been times when I wished there was an admin on to kick off someone who was making the place unpleasant. The Xanadu admins have invited me to play, for free, in their house, and I'm grateful for the time, work, and money they put into it.

I like to play in a place where the chat isn't full of swearing or sexting. (And really, how desperate do you have to be to be using Minetest as a sexting/dating client? There have GOT to be better tools!) You prefer something different. And that's fine, but go play on servers like that then, don't try and get some "higher authority" to change the server that I'm having fun in please.
Last edited by Kilarin on Mon Oct 13, 2014 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by jp » Mon Oct 13, 2014 07:16

(your quotes are wrong, I'm not KLK)

Kilarin wrote:If you like destroying what other people build, please play on a different server than one that emphasizes they don't want griefing.

Kilarin wrote:don't try and get some "higher authority" to change the server that I'm having fun in please.

1. If you read better*, I don't get some "higher authority" at all to impose my views. I just expressed my personal opinions and some questioning as a standard member on a forum, place of debate.

2. Don't attack me and misinterpreting my words please. I never said that I like grief and I don't come online for grief (mainly for visit rather) where it's not tolerated. I just think that some survival/hardcore servers might not sanctionnate the griefing to raise the game's difficulty. I don't think having similar rules on all servers is a good thing. Diversity is a measure of wealth.


* especially at the end of my post : "Note that I can be wrong".

EDIT : misquote above. Nevermind this invalid answer.
Last edited by jp on Mon Oct 13, 2014 15:50, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by CWz » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:17

if "player" likes being a griefer there are a few server that allow griefing.

But some Admin's abuse power either because they are stupid, power hungry or both.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by Kilarin » Mon Oct 13, 2014 15:41

jp wrote:your quotes are wrong, I'm not KLK

That was clumsy of me. My apologies to both you and KLK. I have corrected the original.

jp wrote:I just think that some survival/hardcore servers might not sanctionnate the griefing to raise the game's difficulty.

Then we are in agreement. I think there should be anarchy servers, and I could have fun on them, but I wouldn't try to build anything beautiful there.

jp wrote:I don't get some "higher authority" at all to impose my views.

Exactly that HAS been asked in this thread. But not by you. I mixed up multiple different posters. I shouldn't post late at night when I'm tired without taking a LOT more care. You have my apologies.
 

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Re: Administration abuse

by jp » Mon Oct 13, 2014 15:49

Kilarin wrote:You have my apologies.

No problem ;) And indeed we are in agreement.
 

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