Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

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Gael de Sailly
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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Gael de Sailly » Mon Mar 30, 2015 19:28

Yes, it's unrealistic, definitely. But it's the game. We need a recognizable color for diamond, and the white is already taken. And, more than the color, diamond tools are simply unrealistic. But we need something more powerful than steel.
Copying Minecraft is not a good idea, but inventing some things that don't exist in reality isn't always a bad thing.

I think that our identity is made in a big part by the Mese. It's a symbol.
Image
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by rubenwardy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 19:55

Mese and Nyancats are our only really unique blocks. I liked the alien idea as it adds the potential for more alien ores, etc.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by q9c9p » Mon Mar 30, 2015 20:22

Pardon me to jump in the discussion.

I wanted to say this for a long time but I never find the way/time to articulate.

"You cannot compare cocacola to spring water, water can be made anything you want too if you want too and nobody can forbid that to you" in the same way you cannot compare minecraft to minetest ( pardon my arrogance to state this of your software ).

I think every person aware of the issue ( foss vs proprietary ) should point out first, before going into any discussion, that one is made out of a commercial need, the other from another need ( state your own, for me the need to make it my own but still leave the same liberty to others ).

I heard of minecraft in classrooms and such, a product owned by a company with shady practices ( I mean mojang and the "you shouldn't do it but we won't come to get you" practice that are the pillar of the minecraft/bukkit-spigot-younameit/forge scene ) is allowed to set the example and the standard much like microsoft pushed windows in the throath of every school "back in the days".

I don't want to sound moralist, paternizing or a cyber-bakunin of sort but one should ask to self "do I stand for Free and Open Software or I stand for freeware gaming? Do I want to stand in the line for free stuff or in the crowd that shares stuff to each others?( or will I stand on the side eating popcorns waiting to see where the majority goes :D ) " , thats the question the bukkit people did not ask themselfs before signing with gpl and did not realize ( aka they just wanted free gaming ). Free and Open is a political stand point, period. You can put it the way you want it, but it was born like that and will always be there because of that. You don't like it? Fork off and die. (do not mind this joke probably only few here will get it :D ) http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Fork_off_and_die

I hope beside giving free stuff to people minetest enfatize this and goes in the way to make kids oil the cogs of critic thinking in their brains. I know...sounds terribly paternalitics and moralist...

Pardon me for having bothered, but I hope at least here people will make their mind about this and bash less with "illuminati/reptilians/tinfoil hat" jokes, and of course pardon my gramar and to have trown names of controverse software in this post.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by rubenwardy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 21:49

q9c9p, that is offtopic, this thread is about gameplay, user experience and branding. For the intents of this thread, I don't care about licensing or the ethics of the creator.
 

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Dopium
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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Dopium » Mon Mar 30, 2015 23:00

Gael de Sailly wrote:Yes, it's unrealistic, definitely. But it's the game. We need a recognizable color for diamond, and the white is already taken. And, more than the color, diamond tools are simply unrealistic. But we need something more powerful than steel.


Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction. Tools hardly need a revamp there is plenty, bronze and mese are stronger then steel anyway and thankfully gold has been left untouched.

As for changing the texture color it's nothing other then opening a simple image editor and changing it. Personally most the time a new version/build is released i have to edit a handful of textures and or code to match my texture pack/mods ect.

If diamond is your only worry consider yourself lucky
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by ExeterDad » Mon Mar 30, 2015 23:34

Dopium wrote:Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction.

Agreed.
I own many blades bits and odds and ends that are made with diamond. Ever seen a hot saw? Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Napiophelios » Mon Mar 30, 2015 23:54

ExeterDad wrote:
Dopium wrote:Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction.

Agreed.
I own many blades bits and odds and ends that are made with diamond. Ever seen a hot saw? Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.


I bet my steel sword would snap your diamond sword into a million little gem like pieces when they clashed :)
you guys are talking about commercial applications which is not the same as a frikkin sword made out of diamonds.
I am a construction worker too Exeterdad and I can tell you the blades in your concrete saw are not sharp they just have an incredible material strength.


MeowCat wrote:We, especially if they are unrealistic, as generally diamond and obsidian, should not have something that is associated with the Minecraft. Diamond is usually clear, not usually blue, and obsidian is not difficult to break in real life. In addition, obsidian glass is what? To what the real object, and does it correspond to ??


Diamonds like most gems ores rocks come in a countless variety of colors
and densities depending on where its formed.
Blue Diamonds are very famous.

Obsidian is a form of glass...
I imagine obsidian glass in the game to be a refined/tooled form of rough naturally occurring obsidian
Some primitive cultures have made beautifully crafted perfectly smooth black mirrors from the stuff

In its rough chunk like form obsidian is remarkably difficult to break
depending on its thickness and point of origin.

However because of the way it breaks, it can be considered brittle when its not very thick.

Despite it brittleness obsidian blades are sharper than steel could ever be.
When held under a microscope the edges are perfectly smooth,
Modern surgeons are actually using the stuff for scalpels because of the perfection of its edge.

Obsidian has so many beautiful and unique forms
some are used for tools and weapons some are more suited for jewelry and crafts

I think Minetest should opt for Rainbow Obsidian
its very unique and looks kinda mystical.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by philipbenr » Tue Mar 31, 2015 01:44

slopsbucket wrote:Just thought I'd throw in my two bob's worth with the MineCraft comparrison thing.

I've never played minecraft but I wipe Win8 (everyone hates it) and install Linux systems for people and some have been worried that they won't be able to play Minecraft in Linux so I install it for them.

That gave me the idea of playing but it wanted money before I even got to try it. I'm not stupid, try before you buy. Always. But I figured there'd be some sort of open source equivalent and went hunting. My personal experience has consistently been that open source is always a better quality product than the commercial versions any way, same deal with closed source but "free to use" software too. Firefox and VLC to name a couple.

I didn't have to search too hard to find MineTest - once I'd found the name! I poured through piles of other rubbish before I found you mob.

So without ever trying Minecraft to compare it to, I fell in love with MineTest. I must admit, I find the development pace a little scary, too fast. And it's really this comparisson business with Minecraft that scares me. I started playing with version 0.4.9 and I'm still only playing 0.4.11. It's the textures, I fell in love with Minetest how it is, I don't want it to change too much or too quick. The devs will probably cringe at these words but it's true, it's quaint, it's cute, and it's trying to be nothing other than itself.

Trying to imitate another game must surely only lead to a loss of identity, a loss of individuality, in essence - another cheap chinese copy rolex.

I truly hope the devs don't go down that path, Minetest as it is is a brilliant game and engine, I hope it always remains true to itself.

And as for the lack of popularity - I don't believe that's because of any lack in the game. I believe that it's just a lack of public exposure - no one knows you're there.

Cheers,

Andrew.


+1. Great post Andrew
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Dopium » Tue Mar 31, 2015 01:54

ExeterDad wrote:Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.

Without a doubt, either diamond or tungsten tipped and they cost a small fortune. Also very useful for drilling and cutting glass.

Napiophelios wrote:I bet my steel sword would snap your diamond sword into a million little gem like pieces when they clashed :)
you guys are talking about commercial applications which is not the same as a frikkin sword made out of diamonds.
I am a construction worker too Exeterdad and I can tell you the blades in your concrete saw are not sharp they just have an incredible material strength.


Also absolutely true yet its hard to say in regards of a sword as the use of diamond technology was never used in the days of swinging swords(It was iron age). Was not used for picks and axes either however that doesnt rule out it cant.

Im sure a sword could be made strong and sharp with diamond tip technology, although a traditional enthusiast would rather an original Katana or a Longsword and so on.

Maybe we all just looking into it a bit too far lol, after all it is just a game that could have a paper sword if we really wanted.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Napiophelios » Tue Mar 31, 2015 02:39

Dopium wrote:Maybe we all just looking into it a bit too far lol, after all it is just a game that could have a paper sword if we really wanted.


Nah we are just talkin it thru :)

Most people play games as a little break from reality anyways,
so I think these kind of things are fitting...hell we have air swords too don't we?

What seems unreal and impossible can always be blamed on magic anyways.
I like diamond pick-axes and stone swords myself however unrealistic they are.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by MeowCat » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:52

rubenwardy wrote:Mese and Nyancats are our only really unique blocks. I liked the alien idea as it adds the potential for more alien ores, etc.

Do not forget the cloud!
+ Spoiler
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by slopsbucket » Wed Apr 01, 2015 04:07

Thanks for the vote, Philipbenr.

Had a couple more thoughts on the popularity thing since I wrote that and I have a suggestion for the devs to play with.

Make a slightly more polished version, nothing fancy, KISS principal. Really all that's needed is to put the Animals modpack into the games/minetest/mods folder so that a new user doesn't even have to know about adding mods. They start with a little bit of a challenge.

Then you need to email some people.

The smaller end of the market, I know, but most Linux distributions come with a few different types of programs to showcase how good Linux is today, including a couple of games. And when it comes to the games section they tend to use a couple of different ones for each new distribution. Surely it couldn't hurt your cause if the next Ubuntu came out with Minetest already installed by default. So contact Ubuntu/Canoninical, Suse and whatever else is popular these days and talk to them. The worst that can happen is they say "No." Looks like Fedora don't bother with this any more but it still won't hurt to ask.

As for the big end of the market, try contacting people like PC Mag. An article about open source gaming is always good journalism to them. Just make sure to mention that it's based on Infiniminer and beg them not to try and associate it with Minecraft. Not for legal reasons, although that could make a good excuse to use on the journo's, but for the purpose of establishing Minetest's own identity. If people download it thinking they're getting a free Minecraft they're bound to be disappointed but if they download it expecting something different from Minecraft then they're likely to be more pleased. But to get a good report from Journo's it must be already set up to use as soon as they install it, adding mods and stuff like that is something they'll only get into if and after the initial experience has been enjoyable, same as any new user really, that first 5 minutes of play is where you win or lose their interest.

There's another quick thought for the devs too - instead of asking "what can we do to make Minetest more like that other crap?" why don't you have a look at it from a different angle? What's lacking in Minecraft? Is there an obvious hole there that's in need of filling? Is there something you could put into your game that could make people drop minecraft because your game is better?

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Andrew.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by q9c9p » Fri Apr 03, 2015 09:48

GNU/Linux sir...just sayin'...use the proper names for stuff. Mr Stallman would state the same.

Why are you kids so much into "I want to be the new kid on the block"?
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by ichiman94 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 21:22

Well, minetest is an engine. It has voxel map of nodes, entities, metadata and other stuff, which are enough to build something cool with it. If people really want to create something unique that is not like minecraft, what if we develop a first person based strategy game?

Players could setup their bases, which compose of multiblock structures gathering resources and producing units? It's quite possible. We can keep the default inventory mechanics for storing and using tools to build with. Each multiblock building could be placed with one click using a tool, and these buildings are dynamically damaged by the nature of the engine, so it adds a layer of realism. It could be a medieval castle building and defending game like Stronghold. Or for the dwarfy people, a Dwarf Fortress clone.
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by Sokomine » Mon Apr 06, 2015 03:50

ichiman94 wrote:Players could setup their bases, which compose of multiblock structures gathering resources and producing units? It's quite possible. We can keep the default inventory mechanics for storing and using tools to build with. Each multiblock building could be placed with one click using a tool, and these buildings are dynamically damaged by the nature of the engine, so it adds a layer of realism. It could be a medieval castle building and defending game like Stronghold. Or for the dwarfy people, a Dwarf Fortress clone.

Sure, why not? It's just a lot of work, and someone has to do it if we ever want to play a strategy game in Minetest.

I wonder if it would be possible to combine it with FreeCiv. That already comes with the strategy parts, and it has its own server. Minetest could act as the client. Each FreeCiv field would have to be larger than one Minetest node for it to really work...else it'll all be very small. Maintaining an overview of the game might become difficult.
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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by GarulfoDG » Thu Apr 16, 2015 09:13

rubenwardy wrote:Mese and Nyancats are our only really unique blocks. I liked the alien idea as it adds the potential for more alien ores, etc.


I agree. But the game doesnt tell the player "you are in an alien land/planet" : dirt, water, apple - the game obviously takes place on earth. This is not an issue, but we need to take the player far away/deeper.

Mese could be a more important element, as an important step in the player's progression. For now it's only something more powerful than diamond. Mese could be used to craft an "invention machine", allowing much powerfull craft ?

As an source of scifi game inspiration, the progression in "Starbound" is really interresting, especially the furnace upgrade : starting tier is Iron/Anvil/furnace based, then a Steel/Metalwork Station tier, then player can mine Titanium Ores, then the Robotic Crafting Table, etc.

The craft grid itself should be considered as an alien artefact, making more sense for many mods :
  • Starting with 2x2 grid (bare hand/broken crafting artefact) : wood transformation, torch, simple hammer,
  • Upgraded in 3x3 grid (artefact found/ repared with iron) : this introduce much accurate pattern allowing common tools (axe, pick, hoe)
  • Second upgrade (with gold ?) : improving recipe management with shortcuts/book, allowing complexe 3x3 pattern without having to memorize all.
  • third with mese ? 4x4 grid / other advanced crafting concept

Sorry for shifting in the crafting subject, but i think it is an important way to gain an identity. Minecraft's 3x3 pattern is ok as it proved its interest, but Minetest need to go beyond. FMPOV
 

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Re: Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

by firefox » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:23

although i like fantasy settings more than science fiction, there are some science fiction elements that are quite interesting. i once read the book Anathem by Neal Stephenson. i thought it was a fantasy novel but it turned out to be more of a science fiction novel about parallel dimensions and interdimensional influence.
also the SNES game Chrono Trigger (which is about Time Travel) is one of my favourite games.

so what if Mese is like the Dreamstone from Chrono Trigger that can open the Time Gates ...
the people of the Zeal Kingdom crafted advanced technology with it that was considered "magic".

we already have an UFO mod, crafted from Mese and powered by Obsidian, to fly.
what about building something like the Mammon Machine?

there are also teleporter mods, so even Time Gates and the Gate Key are possible.
and now the important part: unlike Minecraft the Minetest world is huuuuge and would allow multiple worlds above each other. if i remember correctly there even was a thread about this ...
the different Eras could be simulated with stacked realms and the Gate Key could open the Time Gates to travel to the other realms.

and since Lavos is an Alien i will also accept the "Alien Concept" for Minetest.
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