DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by paramat » Thu Aug 18, 2016 17:24

> if you've looked at even minetest_game the WTF license is included in quite a few mods which directly uses the F word

These should be changed to CC0, i'll see what i can do.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by rubenwardy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 17:29

Cc0 is for creative stuff like art though. Mit or something would probably be better (states no warranty)
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Thu Aug 18, 2016 17:33

I like how it seems like this thread is doing a better job of having people switch away from WTFPL than the one talking about problems with it as a license.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Thu Aug 18, 2016 22:24

Paramat that'd be awesome!! I'm downloading it to each of the kids computers so that'd save a lot of time of me editing it. I was actually just going to git with it modified but that makes it even easier because then they could even practice updating it and compiling it without me having to adjust it every time. We won't be going into the source code so that should hopefully be okay and thanks so much for even thinking about it!
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Tmanyo » Fri Aug 19, 2016 02:50

TheReaperKing wrote:EDIT - I want to write this a little nicer.

Kids know what WTF means and more importantly their parents do too. But, even more importantly if you've looked at even minetest_game the WTF license is included in quite a few mods which directly uses the F word. Also, why on earth would I ever tell them what WTF means? That is kind of a strange suggestion from you.

I included the word "not" in there.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Fri Aug 19, 2016 02:52

Right, but why would I ever tell them? I would think it'd be more than obvious that I would never tell them what it means. That's a super quick way to get myself canned.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Tmanyo » Fri Aug 19, 2016 02:55

I have had teachers that have cussed in middle and high school before, lol. I guess my point is, how often do they come in contact with the license anyway? Do they make mods, is that what your are teaching them? Are you using the Minetest code as examples?
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Fri Aug 19, 2016 03:01

Yes, they are learning to put in their own blocks. If I ever cussed in school wow I'd be done so fast. I'm really amazed that it happened in your school. Did they get canned?

EDIT - Also they are going to be putting in their own items too and I made inner tubes for them in the pools and similar accessories they'll be making too with blender and making (or really probably editing at first) mods to make those accessories work in game.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Tmanyo » Fri Aug 19, 2016 03:09

TheReaperKing wrote:Yes, they are learning to put in their own blocks. If I ever cussed in school wow I'd be done so fast. I'm really amazed that it happened in your school. Did they get canned?

EDIT - Also they are going to be putting in their own items too and I made inner tubes for them in the pools and similar accessories they'll be making too with blender and making (or really probably editing at first) mods to make those accessories work in game.

Nah they didn't get canned because if their superiors don't find out then they will be fine. ;)
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by programmingchicken » Sun Aug 28, 2016 18:30

Tmanyo wrote:
TheReaperKing wrote:Yes, they are learning to put in their own blocks. If I ever cussed in school wow I'd be done so fast. I'm really amazed that it happened in your school. Did they get canned?

EDIT - Also they are going to be putting in their own items too and I made inner tubes for them in the pools and similar accessories they'll be making too with blender and making (or really probably editing at first) mods to make those accessories work in game.

Nah they didn't get canned because if their superiors don't find out then they will be fine. ;)

[RISKY]
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by MineYoshi » Mon Aug 29, 2016 21:55

programmingchicken wrote:
Tmanyo wrote:
TheReaperKing wrote:Yes, they are learning to put in their own blocks. If I ever cussed in school wow I'd be done so fast. I'm really amazed that it happened in your school. Did they get canned?

EDIT - Also they are going to be putting in their own items too and I made inner tubes for them in the pools and similar accessories they'll be making too with blender and making (or really probably editing at first) mods to make those accessories work in game.

Nah they didn't get canned because if their superiors don't find out then they will be fine. ;)

[RISKY]

I did just too much stuff in the school, and the superiors never "realized" i did that... That's my case, those superiors were just too careless...
I don't think this is case in my opinion...
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by paramat » Wed Sep 07, 2016 03:55

Task is mostly done, but do check MTGame for any remaining expletives as i can't guarantee i found them all.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Wed Sep 07, 2016 05:02

Thank you so much!! That makes life soooo much easier and now I can let them browse the git at school and home :) I did find one more in walls/init.lua at the top. Thank you again for helping with this, I really appreciate it!!!
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:10

Wow, seriously, TheReaperKing... You are censoring the Internet for your kids only because of the word “fuck”?

Apparently you think your kids are smart enough to code Minetest mods in Lua but are stupid enough to be influenced “negatively” (in whatever contrived way) by simple words. Are you seriously disallowing your kids to use some software only because the license is WTFPL? Have I understood you correctly?
Seriously, that's fucked up. There are FAR greater dangers in this world than just simple words and all-permissive licenses with an “evil” word inside. :P

I think your fear is misguided and this whole thread shows some silly superstitions about language. You all take this WAY too serious in my opinion, while the “danger” is actually pretty minimal or non-existant. I don't mind the license itself; well, its just another all-permissive license, okay, why not? But I do mind the reasons behind it.
You have no clue about language, I urge you to try to learn at least some basics about language before judging the language of others. Here are some key words: Metaphors, context, words, connotation.

The world doesn't always revolve around you. This time you were lucky but not everyone will change the license for you only because of words, especially for Minetest. Also, don't be too happy about the change: Profanity was not the only reason why Minetest Game was / is being migrated away from WTFPL. Legal issues played a role, too. I can even kinda agree with the legal arguments presented. (The legal arguments would also apply to DWYWPL, by the way.) But I am a bit baffled to learn that profanity was a reason at all why Minetest Game is being migrated away from WTFPL.

Also, this is the Internet, there is no way kids will not find out about that the word “fuck” or other word exists. Such words are so common in English, there is no shred of a chance that they have actually never heard those words before. I also challenge the whole notion of that “bad” words are actually bad: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15389&p=232689
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Wed Sep 07, 2016 13:11

Ummm Wuzzy? You do realize these aren't his own children? As in they are students? As in if Minetest can't keep it clean enough to be in schools as they see fit, he can't expose the kids to it?

Wake up dude.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by azekill_DIABLO » Wed Sep 07, 2016 13:38

ExeterDad wrote:Ummm Wuzzy? You do realize these aren't his own children? As in they are students? As in if Minetest can't keep it clean enough to be in schools as they see fit, he can't expose the kids to it?

Wake up dude.

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Don » Wed Sep 07, 2016 13:41

Why is it difficult for people to understand. Schools have to accommodate for everyone. This includes people who don't care about the f word to the very religious that does not allow any profanity. Schools have to have rules that make as many parents happy as possible. That is reality. You can disagree as much as you want but it doesn't change the facts.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Wed Sep 07, 2016 14:03

Then my complaint is targeted at the school, obviously (although I doubt anyone will take this seriously).

Making any software a taboo in schools only beause of a license name is absolutely insane. Also, you should realize how extreme this position actually is.
Let's imagine the GIMP would have been licensed under WTFPL (unlikely, but this is just an example). Now what? “Sorry kids, you can't use the GIMP because the license has a “bad” word in it.” Or how exactly is that supposed to work?
And the idea behind this thread is to convince all people to go away from WTFPL only to make such extremely concerned people happy is not making things better. It's worse, in just strenghens the belief that “bad words” exist. Out of curiousity: Do of the people responsible for this decision have any education or knowledge about linguistics? Or do they even teach it? Because if yes, it would really surprise me. By the way, here's an opinion from an actual linguist:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070521231 ... e.com/arse

So I suggest people should just chill down when it comes to supposedly “bad” words. Whether at home, work, school or whereever.

Let's rename this thread to “DWYWPL—A Teacher/School/Parent Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL”. The kids are not concerned. ;-)

Also, that doesn't change that the fear of “bad” language is completely baseless. Nobody could tell me so far a tangible explanation why it is so bad that some places need to be “kept clean” (=censored) of it.
Enforcing such a policy in a school makes this actually worse as the school is spreading a baseless fear instead of actually educating people. Schools are officially supposed to be places of learning but enforcing a policy like this makes them actually just places of propaganda (at least in this context).

Edit:
This includes people who don't care about the f word to the very religious that does not allow any profanity.


Bending over to the will of all religious people is a bad idea. There are some crazy people who want to ban teaching evolution because it is incompatible with their (false) world view. You have to draw a line where people can't simply have it their way, and it starts with banning things for no good (!) reason.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Wed Sep 07, 2016 14:20

Well I'm relieved you do seem to understand then Wuzzy. Yes GIMP using the WTFPL would be suicide if they wanted to be taken seriously by anyone thinking about using it mainstream.
Facts are facts. It really doesn't matter how big the soapbox is you stand on when voicing your opinions about profanity and how valid a word actually is. If people, educators, parents don't want their kids (or kids in their charge) exposed to certain "things", it's just not going to happen. Period. So if we actually care about exposing Minetest to a greater audience, we need to start caring what other people think and accommodate them.

I'm pretty sure no one has ever been harmed by not actually using profanity. So the accommodation is trivial don't you think?
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Wed Sep 07, 2016 18:32

Of course not using profanity hasn't harmed anyone, but the same might not be said for trying not to use profanity. It's a form of self-censorship and reduces a person's range of self-expression, and it's plausible to me that being concerned about not using bad words would make a person more insecure in their word choice, which would be emotional harm.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by paramat » Thu Sep 08, 2016 18:35

Further edits done, removed a fairly tame word just to be extra careful.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Fri Sep 09, 2016 13:16

It's called morals, basic social standards, consideration, courtesy, decency, respect, or other such definitions one wishes to add...
One of the biggest problems facing our society today is the flood of those who desire the rest of the world to lower the standards, expectations, acceptable social standards so that they do not have to feel "uncomfortable" about the fact they have lesser morals, standards, etc.... And then they cannot be viewed or perceived as immoral, or socially unacceptable in behavoir, etc...
And they will defend their view on these things with verbal, and often even physical aggression, and insults.

I have had a few people use the same bland/popular excuse with me when I comment on their use of profanity among and towards young children... "Mind your own business", and "Well they're gonna hear it eventually so I'd rather have them hear it from me rather than have them go into shock the first time they hear it in the real world"
And other such lame excuses... Hey, your kids may be shot or be next to someone who gets shot in the real world... better they experience it from you than go into shock.. blah blah blah...
The people who strongly fight for the lowering of basic social standards such as regarding profanity among and toward young children are the same type who fight with as much ferocity regarding legalizing pot, etc., and they will never relent..., they are demanding that the entire world/ society change for them, toward their views, while turning it around and stating their anger at others who they view doing the same for them.
I see many younger adults/parents today using awful profanity around and toward their children, quite often when in the city near where I live, and it's just disgusting and vile. But these people become extremely volatile, aggressive, and angry the second someone makes them feel "uncomfortable" with their unacceptable behavoir.
Hey, you wanna abuse and verbally assault your own children in your own home, then you are a disgusting piece of filth, but there is nothing I can do about it (aside from the fact that in some countries people can face charges for such abuse)... but do not do so around my children... because I will speak up. You may have complete disregard, and disrespect for your own children, but you will respect other's children when in they public eye and earshot.
And trust me, I have stated what I wanted to, and will not engage in any debate with anyone on it here.
I will add that I find it extremely immature for an adult to go to such lengths to insult others who do not share their view of morals or support the continuously lowering of standards in society.
The "Who the f are you to judge me!" folks have been winning these fights more and more, because decent people do not want to deal with the aggressive responses (similar to a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum, using invalid reasoning)
Bottom line..., adults SHOULD feel extremely uncomfortable seeing young children exposed to profanity. And those who like to validate it, do so for their own benefit... so they do not have to accept any accountability for their own inability to control their behavoir in public, then they hide it behind their invalid/warped excuses. Since they have such disregard in respect toward their own children, or elders, etc.., they obviously will show as little regard for anyone else they are around, and they do not like to be called out for it. We live in a society which has lost it's own respect, and shows very little toward others..., and self dignity is very rare.
It has always been societies obligation to "judge" others on their behavoir in public..., this is how right from wrong has been kept in clear view... until PC and ultra-liberalism took over. So many "things you cannot say" but... F*** is great... you can shout it all day long at, around anyone you like with absolute disregard for anyone else's feeling or views on such behavoir.
It's funny how so many people, on all sides of every disagreement push their views on everyone else, while criticizing their opponent of doing the same... this is the world we live in... which is why I do not bother with people much anymore...
Freedom... does not give one the right to violate other's freedoms or rights, and it is not a valid excuse to use to hide behind while doing so.
You may have the freedom and right to behave a certain way in your own privacy... but when in public, there are restrictions, because other's in public have freedom and rights as well, and their views may not be the same as yours.. this is why basic, acceptable social standards in behavoir exist. It means realizing this truth and showing consideration, and regard for others in public.
And much of the internet is "public space".
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Fri Sep 09, 2016 21:25

TumeniNodes wrote:It's called morals, basic social standards, consideration, courtesy, decency, respect, or other such definitions one wishes to add...
One of the biggest problems facing our society today is the flood of those who desire the rest of the world to lower the standards, expectations, acceptable social standards so that they do not have to feel "uncomfortable" about the fact they have lesser morals, standards, etc.... And then they cannot be viewed or perceived as immoral, or socially unacceptable in behavoir, etc...
And they will defend their view on these things with verbal, and often even physical aggression, and insults.

One of the biggest problems facing our society today is the flood of those who desire to feel right about their morals, without examining them more than superficially. And they will defend their view on these things with logical fallacies and pat themselves on their righteous backs for making such a great argument.
I have had a few people use the same bland/popular excuse with me when I comment on their use of profanity among and towards young children... "Mind your own business", and "Well they're gonna hear it eventually so I'd rather have them hear it from me rather than have them go into shock the first time they hear it in the real world"
And other such lame excuses... Hey, your kids may be shot or be next to someone who gets shot in the real world... better they experience it from you than go into shock.. blah blah blah...

This analogy assumes from the start that bad words are harmful like gunshots are (though maybe not to the same degree), which is a non-argument when you are arguing that bad words are bad in the first place.
The people who strongly fight for the lowering of basic social standards such as regarding profanity among and toward young children are the same type who fight with as much ferocity regarding legalizing pot, etc., and they will never relent..., they are demanding that the entire world/ society change for them, toward their views, while turning it around and stating their anger at others who they view doing the same for them.

Either off-topic or ad hominem.
I see many younger adults/parents today using awful profanity around and toward their children, quite often when in the city near where I live, and it's just disgusting and vile. But these people become extremely volatile, aggressive, and angry the second someone makes them feel "uncomfortable" with their unacceptable behavoir.

This seems like another ad hominem; it looks like the problem you are describing is with those people's overreactions to you, rather than with bad words themselves.
Hey, you wanna abuse and verbally assault your own children in your own home, then you are a disgusting piece of filth, but there is nothing I can do about it (aside from the fact that in some countries people can face charges for such abuse)... but do not do so around my children... because I will speak up.

Verbal abuse is not the same as bad words, even if abuse is often done with swearing. If I told you that you are worthless and that nobody could love you, that would be verbal abuse, and if someone says that the pizza is fucking great, that isn't verbal abuse. I would never support anyone's verbal abuse toward children, but that is not the same as swearing near them, or even in a conversation with them.
You may have complete disregard, and disrespect for your own children, but you will respect other's children when in they public eye and earshot.

It's not clear why swearing near children indicates disregard and disrespect. Maybe you should say why? One might argue that swearing around children (if you normally swear around adults too) is showing respect, in that you aren't toning down your language because you think they can't handle it. It's important here by the way to distinguish between respect and politeness, because it's possible to be impolite but still respectful, depending on the setting.
And trust me, I have stated what I wanted to, and will not engage in any debate with anyone on it here.

Unless you are just using this as your feel-good soapbox, you might want to rethink that since your arguments are weak.
I will add that I find it extremely immature for an adult to go to such lengths to insult others who do not share their view of morals or support the continuously lowering of standards in society.

Good thing I haven't insulted you, except maybe the soapbox quip.
The "Who the f are you to judge me!" folks have been winning these fights more and more, because decent people do not want to deal with the aggressive responses (similar to a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum, using invalid reasoning)

Like with verbal abuse, angry overreactions aren't the only context that swearing happens in. It might also be hypocritical to criticize other people's invalid reasoning when your post is full of it.
It has always been societies obligation to "judge" others on their behavoir in public..., this is how right from wrong has been kept in clear view... until PC and ultra-liberalism took over. So many "things you cannot say" but... F*** is great... you can shout it all day long at, around anyone you like with absolute disregard for anyone else's feeling or views on such behavoir.

So judging some things are good to you, but judging on some other things is not? It's almost as if we need to examine what society should be judging, such as whether swearing is a social menace.
It's funny how so many people, on all sides of every disagreement push their views on everyone else, while criticizing their opponent of doing the same... this is the world we live in... which is why I do not bother with people much anymore...

This is a valid point. It's much more important to argue about whether we should allow swearing, than to argue about whether TumeniNodes should think that swearing is ok.
Freedom... does not give one the right to violate other's freedoms or rights, and it is not a valid excuse to use to hide behind while doing so.

You may have the freedom and right to behave a certain way in your own privacy... but when in public, there are restrictions, because other's in public have freedom and rights as well, and their views may not be the same as yours.. this is why basic, acceptable social standards in behavoir exist. It means realizing this truth and showing consideration, and regard for others in public.

What freedom or right is being violated here? The right to not be offended? If I don't see the argument the same way as you do, I probably won't get to the same conclusions as you, so you need to spell it out.
And much of the internet is "public space".

I would disagree, most websites have no or very limited space for public speech. Even those that do usually have lots of restrictions imposed by whatever private entity operates it, which normally wouldn't be imposed on speech in a public place like a park.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by MineYoshi » Fri Sep 09, 2016 21:38

TumeniNodes wrote: Freedom... does not give one the right to violate other's freedoms or rights, and it is not a valid excuse to use to hide behind while doing so.
You may have the freedom and right to behave a certain way in your own privacy... but when in public, there are restrictions, because other's in public have freedom and rights as well, and their views may not be the same as yours.. this is why basic, acceptable social standards in behavoir exist. It means realizing this truth and showing consideration, and regard for others in public.
And much of the internet is "public space".

Let me tell you sir, You said the perfect point.
+100!
nire patata zurea da, kide :-)
 

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