DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Fri Sep 09, 2016 23:51

I was originally trying to answer TumeniNodes but then I didn't bother to because of this:
TumeniNodes wrote:And trust me, I have stated what I wanted to, and will not engage in any debate with anyone on it here.


Now thankfully Byakuren has basically brought most of the points I would also have given. I fully agree that the reasoning was weak. And good job in pointing out the fallacies.
There was also a case of poisoning the well: The “legalizing pot” argument, as if this would have any relevance to the argument if you simply state that the opposing side of an argument has done something bad (and whether legalizing pot is bad or good is another question but off-topic).

There's one reply by Byakuren which I think is great:

Byakuren wrote:It's not clear why swearing near children indicates disregard and disrespect. Maybe you should say why? One might argue that swearing around children (if you normally swear around adults too) is showing respect, in that you aren't toning down your language because you think they can't handle it.

Woah! I have never seen it from this angle. Not swearing as a sign of disrespect because you don't treat them as equals. I must admit, I was not even close to thinking it about it. This would mean that the intentional avoiding of “bad” speech around kids is not politeness, but arrogance.

I will not go through the points further because Byakuren already did all the work. :-) And because replies are probably futile if I can believe the first quote.

I wonder, MineYoshi, if your previous post was irony. I don't agree with the strange freedom argument for the same reason as Byakuren already said.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Sat Sep 10, 2016 00:13

Whatever. You are wrong. I am right.
"Bad Words" are a bad idea if we want to maintain some kind of decent image in the eyes of the majority of the civilized world. I use "bad words" regularly. But I have the common sense to know when and where it is acceptable to use them. Even when I was hard core soldier, doing hard core things, I knew there were times when I knew that foul language was not in order. And honestly, I can't ever recall anyone I ever served with being inappropriate in environments that would normally be reserved for "clean words".
It literally makes me sad to know that you likely actually believe in what you are standing up for. And that you think your twisted replies actually build a case for you. I've tried to understand your stubbornness, I really have. It just does not compute. Maybe it's because my parents raised me this way? That's also sad. My father was a very bad man. And I hate him and every bad memory associated with him. The world is a much better place since he left it. And even he.. was able behave himself when it came to language and other peoples children. Pretty pathetic if you think about it.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by MineYoshi » Sat Sep 10, 2016 02:27

Wuzzy wrote:I wonder, MineYoshi, if your previous post was irony. I don't agree with the strange freedom argument for the same reason as Byakuren already said.

Bit of Both. "Freedom" is so "Freedom-ish", that you have the Freedom to think what it is its meaning. Generally the concept of "Freedom" is "Do Whatever You Want, 'cause You Can!"(You can Kill, You can Rape, You can... Afterall we have Freedom) The point here is that with Freedom comes a "Responsability" (At least for me) for what you do!
It's your choice, you are "Free"...

Wuzzy wrote:There's one reply by Byakuren which I think is great:

Byakuren wrote:It's not clear why swearing near children indicates disregard and disrespect. Maybe you should say why? One might argue that swearing around children (if you normally swear around adults too) is showing respect, in that you aren't toning down your language because you think they can't handle it.

Woah! I have never seen it from this angle. Not swearing as a sign of disrespect because you don't treat them as equals. I must admit, I was not even close to thinking it about it. This would mean that the intentional avoiding of “bad” speech around kids is not politeness, but arrogance.


Well, i don't catch so much your point (A bit only), but by what i understand by far not doing a supposly "bad" act to someone, and do it to other is "Disrespect"? So nice, if you cut the leg to a person, and to other not, that's called "Disrespect"... I have to take a note of that in my personal book, and tell it to every person I know. :D (Sorry, if I love the Sarcasm)...

Maybe you're talking since the "Perspective" of "Swearing can be how you show your affect", in that case, you got to think about some people is different...
Some persons as well may see the "Bad Words" as "Bad" because the fact that his/her morality says that is wrong. And you got to have in mind that.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Sat Sep 10, 2016 03:16

MineYoshi wrote:Well, i don't catch so much your point (A bit only), but by what i understand by far not doing a supposly "bad" act to someone, and do it to other is "Disrespect"? So nice, if you cut the leg to a person, and to other not, that's called "Disrespect"... I have to take a note of that in my personal book, and tell it to every person I know. :D (Sorry, if I love the Sarcasm)...

It's not different treatment in itself that shows disrespect, it's the implied reasons for the difference in treatment. If you typically swear with adults, but not with children, one reason might be that you think the children aren't ready, which could be interpreted as disrespect. I'm not saying this is the only reason you might not swear to children, but my original point was just that it's not obvious that swearing near or with someone is intrinsically disrespectful, and that the claim requires more work. With your cutting analogy, if I was some edgy dude who only cut the legs of people that I think are strong enough to handle it, one way to show disrespect might be for me to scratch someone with a pushpin instead, so it really is possible that not cutting someone's leg would be disrespectful, in a contrived situation like this. Obviously cutting people's legs is still generally bad, but that doesn't make swearing bad just because the two actions were near each other in your paragraph.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Sat Sep 10, 2016 05:57

ExeterDad wrote:And suddenly I am able to sort this all out. Nicely done boys! :D

Great argument, I guess I can just call you, Tumeni, etc. trolls and be done with it as well. I have been completely serious in all my posts.

EDIT: I mean that I was serious in the points I was making, obviously that first sentence is sarcastic.


Who do you think is trolling, and why do you think they are?
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:12

"Bad Words" are a bad idea if we want to maintain some kind of decent image in the eyes of the majority of the civilized world. I use "bad words" regularly. But I have the common sense to know when and where it is acceptable to use them. Even when I was hard core soldier, doing hard core things, I knew there were times when I knew that foul language was not in order. And honestly, I can't ever recall anyone I ever served with being inappropriate in environments that would normally be reserved for "clean words".

Of course, if you feel by yourselves that using “bad” words is wrong in any given situtation, then don't use them. Nobody is forcing you to use them. That's not my point. My point is about whether it is use to forbid/prevent others from using them by, let's say, “bad” word filters / autokick feature in chat and similar measures. Personally, I think it is a bit silly to strip yourselves of a certain part of language but that's all I say. I won't propose to force anyone to only talk via “bad” words or to increase the number of “bad” words being used, etc., I only question the taboo of “bad” words.
As for the majority: First I don't even know whether it is even true if the majority believes in the notion of “bad” words. But even if that's true this is still no justification.

I wonder how far you would go in preventing usage of “bad” words. Which of these expressions would be not acceptable?:

- “That was fucking great!” (intensifier)
- “I'm so fucked.” (something bad happened to you or it is going to happen very soon)
- “That's fucked up.” (something is really crazy/silly)
- “What the fuck?” (surprise (kinda))
- “WTF?” (same)
- “WTFPL” (just the name of a license)
- “Fuck me.” (there are 2 meanings: the obvious literal one, but this is also said if something bad happened to you, similar to “I'm so fucked.”)
- “Fuck my life.” (similar to the above)
- “Fuck you!” (insult; you're mad at someone)
- “Fuck!” (Quick way to express immediate anger, e.g. you hit yourself with the hammer on your thumb)
- “They fucked.” (literal meaning)
- (the list goes on)

If we were consequent in preventing usage of “bad” words, then ALL above expressions would be taboo. Like it or not, but “fuck” is a pretty versatile word (it's almost crazy), and by preventing “bad” words, you would also remove one of the most versatile words in English, solely on highly questionable moral grounds. Get real, the word “fuck” can not be removed from the English language. IMO that's a bad idea anyway. If you seriously think the word “fuck” is ALWAYS unjustified, then what is the alternative in English (not that I believe that this alternative has any chance)?

It literally makes me sad to know that you likely actually believe in what you are standing up for. And that you think your twisted replies actually build a case for you. I've tried to understand your stubbornness, I really have. It just does not compute. Maybe it's because my parents raised me this way? That's also sad. My father was a very bad man. And I hate him and every bad memory associated with him. The world is a much better place since he left it. And even he.. was able behave himself when it came to language and other peoples children. Pretty pathetic if you think about it.

This is an argument from ignorance. The truth does not care whether you undestand it.
If you don't understand my points at all, then could you please tell me/us what points you find confusing? My replies are “twisted” in exactly what way? Have I committed fallacies? Are my assumptions wrong? Etc. Just claiming that I'm wrong but not saying why is not helping.

PS: Calling me a troll (in case you meant me) is not helping your cause. This is called “poisoning the well”. The truth does not care about who expresses it. And I'm not even trolling, by the way. To make an convincing counter-argument, you have to attack the arguments, not the people who express them.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:18

Wuzzy wrote:That's not my point. My point is about whether it is use to forbid/prevent others from using them by, let's say, “bad” word filters / autokick feature in chat and similar measures. Personally, I think it is a bit silly to strip yourselves of a certain part of language but that's all I say. I won't propose to force anyone to only talk via “bad” words or to increase the number of “bad” words being used, etc., I only question the taboo of “bad” words.

Perhaps its because your arguments are on the wrong thread. Please revisit the OP. Why are we talking about filters and autokick now? However the other thread you authored is more suited for your "points" viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15389

Wuzzy wrote:I wonder how far you would go in preventing usage of “bad” words. Which of these expressions would be not acceptable?:

- “That was fucking great!” (intensifier)
- “I'm so fucked.” (something bad happened to you or it is going to happen very soon)
- “That's fucked up.” (something is really crazy/silly)
- “What the fuck?” (surprise (kinda))
- “WTF?” (same)
- “WTFPL” (just the name of a license)
- “Fuck me.” (there are 2 meanings: the obvious literal one, but this is also said if something bad happened to you, similar to “I'm so fucked.”)
- “Fuck my life.” (similar to the above)
- “Fuck you!” (insult; you're mad at someone)
- “Fuck!” (Quick way to express immediate anger, e.g. you hit yourself with the hammer on your thumb)
- “They fucked.” (literal meaning)
- (the list goes on)

Any one of these colorful examples is never appropriate around or used by a child. It really needs no explanation. Please don't ask me to create illustrations for clarity. However I do find humor in the fact you felt it necessary to define a language to me that I mastered many decades ago. Thanks for the morning chuckle :)

And speaking of humor this is the icing on the cake for me, so ironic you ask this:
If you seriously think the word “fuck” is ALWAYS unjustified, then what is the alternative in English (not that I believe that this alternative has any chance)?

You so easily found decent (alternate) definitions for that colorful list I quoted above. Even better, a observation I made a while ago but felt it a waste of effort to point out...
When you or others on your bandwagon bring out your well written, highly intelligent points about "bad words", you are careful with your grammar, choice of words and lack of foul language. The bad words are used as examples, not in your actual sentences. So you are at minimum subconsciously aware that if you are to be taken seriously, you need to behave and clean your act up. Of course the same is not true when you are having the tantrums, but that's the whole point and I'll give you that. :)

You both called me out on bringing up trolling. Well... it just makes sense. You both are clearly highly intellegent. You code and imagination are excellent. You do have social skills. I've seen them in action all over the board and IRC. You are likable. Yet somehow you have myself and others beating our heads against keyboards trying to get you to see the obvious, and have presented it in so many different ways (except for illustrations). Yet STILL you appear not to understand. You have to be trolling.
It's a joke. The jokes on us. I can respect that. :)
Last edited by ExeterDad on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:47

There are appropriate times to express/act upon/fight for one's freedoms..., and then there are times to silently sit idle and smile knowing one has such freedoms. And, even more satisfying to know that one has the common sense to know when it is and when it is not appropriate in the context of appropriate and acceptable social behavoir.
The key word here is "appropriate". The only reason when or where it is appropriate to use or exploit freedom of speech was never written into certain documents, is the fact that at the time they were written, those who did so, assumed those who read it, would naturally be able to use common sense to determine where some words/speech is appropriate, and where they/it are not. (appropriate meaning in a social/public setting)
Would you be bold enough to represent yourself in a court of law, using such speech/words, expressing your freedom? Would you be bold enough to attend a book reading for young children, at a library, and once the reader were finished exclaim aloud "That was F-ing great!"? Would you be bold enough to make such statement after a sermon in a church?
Of course not (at least I would hope not), simply because you would hopefully have the common sense to acknowledge that this would be... inappropriate.
Children..., are the ultimate representation of innocence..., and there is nothing more fascinating, or beautiful as that innocence. There is, for the most part..., a natural instinct embedded into the human brain, which tells most adults when it is, and when it is not appropriate to begin exposing that innocence to the atrocities/failings of the human nature. Some, sadly do not have the facilities of such instincts. These individuals are often deemed socially impaired. http://www.childspeech.net/u_iv_k.html

An inability to break down the ideas or concept of "appropriate", "polite", "socially acceptable" speech, when in social/public situations or environments, can be confusing and problematic for some. They posses a different level of understanding regarding it, than do most.

The reason I injected my thoughts into this thread is..., that the original post clearly explained the reason and reasoning behind a request, which was communicated in a polite manner..., only to be literally attacked in both reasoning and personally..., by those who were offended at the very notion. And thus felt a need to begin citing "freedom of speech" and rights, etc., and using them to express their views/opinions, and interpretations of laws.
I do not see the point in such futileness to be honest. It has been clear from the very start of this thread that no one had any intentions of forcing nor mandating all to comply..., but still... some were deeply offended at the very thought of decency..., and I assume felt personally attacked.
The reason behind the request is very reasonable, and was made of those willing to participate. Those who have no desire to participate needed only to not comply with the request, and not respond..., but this is where reason fails with some..., they feel compelled to inject and push their narrative on the topic.
And then when others injected their views/opinions, also seemed to offend these same people.
Look..., we all (as adults) understand the basic idea of and behind our rights to free speech. This has not been a question to that. The only thing which has come into question as a result, as this nonsense continues is..., the idea of "appropriateness"
This is all I have to say on the matter..., the request was clear as day. The reasoning behind it clearly stated..., it did not need to turn into a fight about rights, etc.. Common courtesy goes a very long way..., and when certain documents were drafted in history..., common courtesy was just a given..., obviously taken for granted by those of the time. I am certain there are many things which have changed since then which would disturb many of those individuals if they could see it today.
So bottom line... one either wishes to comply with the original request, for the obvious, and understandable reasoning behind it... or they do not. It was offered, not mandated as an "alternative".
Under the request..., young minds will either be able to enjoy and appreciate, and learn from your great work... or they will not (this depends upon... language.. and each individual's ability to understand the reasoning, or not)
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by MineYoshi » Sat Sep 10, 2016 18:47

TumeniNodes wrote: Children..., are the ultimate representation of innocence..., and there is nothing more fascinating, or beautiful as that innocence. There is, for the most part..., a natural instinct embedded into the human brain, which tells most adults when it is, and when it is not appropriate to begin exposing that innocence to the atrocities/failings of the human nature. Some, sadly do not have the facilities of such instincts.

Let me tell you Sir, you did a great point!
But it changes when you realize the fact that kids of +6 years already see NSFW stuff, they use and read/hear coarse language, and the fathers don't seem to care. It's weird see a kid without even knowing a "Bad Word" or know about "NSFW" content, and it's because they see that everywhere, but since we're free and everything is alright, and the rules and "Morality" went away, Who Cares?... (Except some "responsible" Fathers and Mothers that still use those old rules about that thing called "Morality")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But actually the "Bad Words" are seen as "Bad Words" because you, yes you... Simply, don't use "Bad Words" can be seen as an "Obstacle" in fully expression and comunication, here some example:
+ "Coarse Language, Very Strong Coarse Language, be careful when reading this"


"Coarse (kôrs, kōrs)►
adj.Of low, common, or inferior quality.
adj.Lacking in delicacy or refinement: coarse manners.
adj.Vulgar or indecent: coarse language."(Thank you Wordnik, https://www.wordnik.com/words/coarse)
The only reason of the excessive censure of "Coarse Language", it's because it is seen as "low" or "inferior", there isn't any other reason here, except the people can be "offended" when hearing this, some people say you are against the "Integrity" of a person when you say "Bad Words".
There isn't any other reason here to fight than justly defend "opinions", "perspectives" and "Morality"...
Wuzzy and Byakuren think that the "Coarse Language" is like the normal language, only seen like "Wrong" by society, and that isn't "Wrong" to use it everywhere...
ExeterDad and TumeniNodes as well are thinking that this "Coarse Language", shouldn't be used with children and in important places, 'cause it's "Wrong" and can be offensive...

But in really ExeterDad is right, better talk about this in the Original Thread for this in the Off-Topic section, as well TheReaperKing only was requesting that "WTFPL" was changed by "DWYWPL" because probably the Fathers of his Students wouldn't like to see their kids read "Coarse Language" where they study...
He never requested a "debate" about "Morality", "Freedom" and "Perspective" about using "Coarse Language"...
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Sat Sep 10, 2016 19:35

ExeterDad wrote:You both called me out on bringing up trolling. Well... it just makes sense. You both are clearly highly intellegent. You code and imagination are excellent. You do have social skills. I've seen them in action all over the board and IRC. You are likable. Yet somehow you have myself and others beating our heads against keyboards trying to get you to see the obvious, and have presented it in so many different ways (except for illustrations). Yet STILL you appear not to understand. You have to be trolling.
It's a joke. The jokes on us. I can respect that. :)

I could raise all these same points about you, but I don't think you're trolling. There are reasons other people won't see an argument your way other than malice. I think it is pretty insulting to say that someone's viewpoint could only possibly be from someone who doesn't actually think what they are saying. There are many smart people who don't agree with each other even after lots of debate and argument, which you can see from the great variety of political viewpoints, even in educated countries. If you disagreed with the tenets of a political party's philosophy, would you think that they are all either stupid or trolling?

TumeniNodes wrote:There are appropriate times to express/act upon/fight for one's freedoms..., and then there are times to silently sit idle and smile knowing one has such freedoms. And, even more satisfying to know that one has the common sense to know when it is and when it is not appropriate in the context of appropriate and acceptable social behavoir.
The key word here is "appropriate". The only reason when or where it is appropriate to use or exploit freedom of speech was never written into certain documents, is the fact that at the time they were written, those who did so, assumed those who read it, would naturally be able to use common sense to determine where some words/speech is appropriate, and where they/it are not. (appropriate meaning in a social/public setting)

Nobody said that freedoms and rights don't have times when they don't need to be exercised. It's your burden to show that swearing around children is one of those times.
Would you be bold enough to represent yourself in a court of law, using such speech/words, expressing your freedom? Would you be bold enough to attend a book reading for young children, at a library, and once the reader were finished exclaim aloud "That was F-ing great!"? Would you be bold enough to make such statement after a sermon in a church?
Of course not (at least I would hope not), simply because you would hopefully have the common sense to acknowledge that this would be... inappropriate.

I wouldn't be, for a couple reasons. I don't want to cause trouble in my life, since some people find swearing rude, and I don't think it fits my self-image. But whether I personally would want to swear is a different question from whether I think it is bad for people to swear.
Children..., are the ultimate representation of innocence..., and there is nothing more fascinating, or beautiful as that innocence. There is, for the most part..., a natural instinct embedded into the human brain, which tells most adults when it is, and when it is not appropriate to begin exposing that innocence to the atrocities/failings of the human nature. Some, sadly do not have the facilities of such instincts. These individuals are often deemed socially impaired. http://www.childspeech.net/u_iv_k.html

Instinct or intuition is never an argument, because there are plenty of instinctual behaviors that are harmful. One example is the instinct to gorge oneself until fat, which comes from the scarcity of food during the majority of human evolution. I'm not an anthropologist, but I think it's plausible that valuing innocence has similar roots, such as needing to protect children from the dangers in the wild.
An inability to break down the ideas or concept of "appropriate", "polite", "socially acceptable" speech, when in social/public situations or environments, can be confusing and problematic for some. They posses a different level of understanding regarding it, than do most.

I'm assuming you are treating these three words as basically the same, since you haven't elaborated. You said earlier that political correctness was one restriction to socially acceptable speech that you didn't agree with. From the rest of the argument you've made I will assume that you think that you are supposed to sit down and take it, despite disagreement, because needing to heed what's "appropriate" without question looks like the main argument you are making against swearing around children. You still haven't given any support to why people must always be appropriate, though, when part of being appropriate is something they disagree with.
The reason I injected my thoughts into this thread is..., that the original post clearly explained the reason and reasoning behind a request, which was communicated in a polite manner..., only to be literally attacked in both reasoning and personally..., by those who were offended at the very notion. And thus felt a need to begin citing "freedom of speech" and rights, etc., and using them to express their views/opinions, and interpretations of laws.

I never cited rights or freedoms in my favor, I was only pointing out problems with other people's reasoning. Though of course people will want to use them when arguing your moral opinion, because they are themselves moral values. Why do you think it is bad that people use freedoms or rights to justify their positions?
I do not see the point in such futileness to be honest. It has been clear from the very start of this thread that no one had any intentions of forcing nor mandating all to comply..., but still... some were deeply offended at the very thought of decency..., and I assume felt personally attacked.
The reason behind the request is very reasonable, and was made of those willing to participate. Those who have no desire to participate needed only to not comply with the request, and not respond..., but this is where reason fails with some..., they feel compelled to inject and push their narrative on the topic.

Your story of the degenerate world is also a narrative. Since you have said that you are not here to argue, pushing that narrative looks like the sole reason for your earlier post.
And then when others injected their views/opinions, also seemed to offend these same people.
Look..., we all (as adults) understand the basic idea of and behind our rights to free speech. This has not been a question to that. The only thing which has come into question as a result, as this nonsense continues is..., the idea of "appropriateness"
This is all I have to say on the matter..., the request was clear as day. The reasoning behind it clearly stated..., it did not need to turn into a fight about rights, etc.. Common courtesy goes a very long way..., and when certain documents were drafted in history..., common courtesy was just a given..., obviously taken for granted by those of the time. I am certain there are many things which have changed since then which would disturb many of those individuals if they could see it today.
So bottom line... one either wishes to comply with the original request, for the obvious, and understandable reasoning behind it... or they do not. It was offered, not mandated as an "alternative".
Under the request..., young minds will either be able to enjoy and appreciate, and learn from your great work... or they will not (this depends upon... language.. and each individual's ability to understand the reasoning, or not)


To be clear, I am not against changing the licenses used in Minetest for the pragmatic reason of having it more accepted, because I don't think the cause of removing bad word taboos is important enough. I do think that there is nothing inherently wrong with bad words or using them around children.

I didn't make my point clear earlier because I didn't really have one, I was just focused on pointing out the fallacies in Tumeni's post. I can't be here to debate against Tumeni's opinion either, because otherwise I would be banging my head like ExeterDad. I'll add a point right now, and it is this: the Tumeni style of argument adds nothing of value to the threads he posts it in. This isn't a personal attack, I am just using Tumeni's name because I haven't seen anyone else use this style of post. The main problem comes from that he does not want to or expect to defend his position against arguments from other people. I don't think this is a bad thing in itself; some people might not have the time or energy. But in the case of the posts I don't like, the arguments put forth start out weak and never get any better, probably because there wasn't any thought put into making them defensible. Tumeni never addresses any arguments directly, just making sweeping generalizations about that reduce his opponents to straw men. The result is that people who disagree complain about the arguments, and people who agree (usually) just indicate their support or feel validated. Neither side gets any benefit because the arguments aren't developed into something strong enough to make a difference. The other problem that I see is that the style of posting classifies the opposition as moral degenerates who just want to justify their immoral behavior, shifting the argument from what is actually being discussed to the motivations and character of the people arguing. I don't think it had a big effect here, which is why I didn't say this was the bigger problem.

I don't think Tumeni is trolling, but his way of posting causes one of the symptoms of trolling, which is a static argument.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Sun Sep 11, 2016 00:07

OK, sorry, I was in the wrong thread, sorry. I should have kept it more on the license and not about issues like “freedom” and such.

Long story short:
- I am not against any all-permissive license. The contents of the proposed license is perfectly acceptable
- I think the idea behind DWYWPL is misguided because I think the fear of the word “fuck” is WAY too overblown
- Nobody is harmed by the word “fuck” (it may be seen as “foul language” but it is not an insult in itself). Or can you name me anyone who has serious mental breakdown only because this single word?
- Nobody is harmed from learning the existance of WTFPL; not even children
- When shools start to censor software on the sole basis that it is licensed under WTFPL, the schools are batshit insane. We should not legitimize this by changing to DWYWPL
- Someone criticized WTFPL on legal reasons somewhere in these forums; long story short: Same legal critisims apply to DWYWPL, too
- I fucking hate the acronym, it's so hard to remember
- License is redundant, please don't use it, this just clutters the pool of available licenses with more confusing license acronyms. In software licensing, it is a rule of thumb to always prefer existing and tested licenses over writing your own. The proposed license violates this rule of thumb
- Plenty of all-permissive licenses already exist: CC-0, GNU All-Permissive License, MIT License
- I will stop writing about “bad words” in general in this thread (I try) and try to keep this in the Off Topic forum instead
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Sun Sep 11, 2016 01:36

LOL Wuzzy.
I need to apologize as well. I did some research on bad words and various topics related to them and have concluded that the both of you are not completely out of your minds for having your strong opinions. Even if I have no intentions of being a convert. :)
I may try to explain all this and my findings in the other thread at another time.
But most of all, I admit to assuming you two were trolling. Not necessarily to be malicious, but for fun. Your views are radically different then mine as I've made it known. But I know understand (I think) why now, and you guys weren't being oppositional purely for entertainment.
So I'm sorry for that.
Byakuren, directly insulting you wasn't my intention. I honestly thought I was calling you out. I hope you noted I gave you kudos as I posted the link.

About the license. The WTFPL as it turns out is a poorly written license as far as protection is concerned. So it's fair to say the DWYWPL is also poorly written, even if it has the benefit of being kid friendly.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Sun Sep 11, 2016 03:53

I avoid debate regarding morals, etc., for the simple fact (as pointed out) they get nowhere.
I state my opinion, which is what all people do.
But, even with that fact..., there is a definitive reason that such language is not tolerated, nor permitted in various public venues..., and that reason is (what is considered, by most to be acceptable and not acceptable) given specific, variable public/social situations. If this were not true, then obviously, such language would, today, be gladly welcomed in such venues as I gave as some examples.
Understanding this fact, simply proves that yes, this language is still perceived as inappropriate by most, based upon each individual situation/environment.
Swearing around or especially at young children is, generally considered fundamentally wrong.
I (believe it or not) swear too... although very rarely. I am, however, a strong advocate regarding the way "adults" behave among young children.
I am also fully aware that even young children become very much aware of such language at a younger age, the more we move into the future. But what is important is this..., even when they know of them, are aware of them, and their impact in certain settings... it is the obligation of adults to teach children the pros and cons..., about the responsibility which comes with certain (actually all) freedoms and rights, as they grow.
My youngest child is now 13 years old and I constantly hear continuous expletives coming from the bedroom, from celebrities they follow on youtube. And believe it or not..., at 13, I am "ok" with this, knowing that I have done my job as an adult and a parent in teaching my children well regarding this topic...
The result is that these words are basically ignored, yet my 13 yo realizes the humor impact they have. But my child also knows their responsibility to handle these words with responsibility... and example of what I mean is, my child does not repeat them in an obnoxiously, incontrollable, etc., manner (especially in my presence) with the same respect for me, which I showed him as a young child, and even today.
Does my child use these words when alone with friends? I do not doubt it for a moment. But the fact is..., my child still realizes when and where it is appropriate to use them.
Dr. Suess never put out "The "F-bomb book"..., for a reason :P
I do not have any ill feelings toward anyone here. But, I do stand behind my beliefs, and the very fact that such language is not permitted, or tolerated in specific settings, is a valid point in itself as to what I state and for my views.
So, back to the point..., no one ever suggested that young children are not aware of such language (and other undesirable aspects of human nature), but it is the obligation of adults (as I stated) that just as with other things in life..., to teach children about responsibilities, accountability, and character, etc..
The children the original meaning of this post, is regarding a school/classroom environment for young children grades k-8..., where such language is not tolerated, permitted..., and for the reason that is is an inappropriate setting for such language, whether spoken or written..., which is due to the sole fact that most deem it inappropriate in that setting / environment. (because it is)
I, myself, pay zero attention to such language (even in public) unless there are young children nearby or, if I can see that it is obviously causing an elderly individual considerable stress (which is often when the language is being used with the intent to create a scene)
I am always very polite, and in most cases the offender is often embarrassed and shows genuine remorse and an apology. Sometimes it is clear I was drawn into an intended confrontation so I apologize, mention that I thought I would just ask in case they were unaware, and then walk away.., because any further debate is futile.
I guess I follow the whole "think before you speak" rule of life, which I was brought up under. I also realize not everyone was brought up the same way or under the same circumstances as I was.
The fact I am a strong, and active advocate for children is also unavoidably apparent in my personality. I am a single parent of two children who have an abusive (on various fronts) mother, and I have witnessed a few human atrocities involving young children in my life..., so these things I feel very strongly about. And I do believe there are appropriate times/ages for children to be taught about certain aspects of human nature.
The reason I feel it is inappropriate and fundamentally wrong to use such language among or towards young children is, it deprives them of their right to be "a child" and violates/robs them of their innocence before it needs to happen.
While young children may know and be aware of such language... does this necessarily mean that the should know, or need to know more/specifics? It has been proven that while young children may know of and be ware of such language, they often already know their impact and that they can be inappropriate..., so this is already a natural instinct.
It is also proven that young children already are aware of certain aspects of sexuality at a very young age, naturally and instinctively..., but does that mean it's time to have "the talks" with them at 2, or maybe even 3 years old? ... No is the answer (in case anyone is not so sure)
My point is, let kids BE...., "kids"..., at least for a what little time they have to enjoy it before reality needs to start destroying it for them, and because they have a right to be kids..., grant them that one true freedom they have as children. Why rush it?
I am long winded (and slightly psychotic)..., apologies
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Byakuren » Sun Sep 11, 2016 06:19

I still have issues with your new post, but I feel less comfortable about continuing to argue in here after expressing my reasons to argue in my previous post. I don't have a strong opinion on the original issue, whether Minetest should have licenses or code comments with expletives, so my discussion just tends toward the meta-argument of why I think your posts are bad. I'll stop or go to the off-topic thread instead of here.

EDIT: @ExeterDad: It's alright, I didn't feel really insulted, it just sounded to me like something that would be insulting. I thought that wording it that way would be a good way to raise the point that assuming malice devalues the opinion, and that might have been a bit deceptive since I wasn't personally insulted. Sorry for that.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by HolyPhoenix » Tue Sep 27, 2016 01:56

Yeah... now that I am no longer in college and have kids of my own, I am definitely in favor of not using WTFPL.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by migdyn » Wed Jan 02, 2019 20:49

Don wrote:I agree and I will change my licence over to DWYWPL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

I know this thread is old but when I saw the title i thought you're linking to the anarchist video CHILDREN with some guys with coconuts on tehir heads
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