Post your screenshots!

Termos
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Termos » Mon Oct 14, 2019 08:11

ShadMOrdre wrote:Here's an alternatively colored landscape. Hopefully more to everyone's liking.

Not sure that's even possible, this seems highly subjective stuff.
Take Pixel Perfection texture pack for example, it makes my eyes puke, yet there are people who swear it looks beautiful to them.

This one:
Image
Has been 'shopped with auto color enhance, because it looks much better like that to me.Looks like a mindless algorithm is a better color artist than me.

It also shows how much the default MT sky color sucks, and that's essential to the overall looks, because not only it occupies half the screen area on average, but fog color is the same as the skies' so everything gets overlaid with that bluesy funeral tint.
 

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by voxelproof » Mon Oct 14, 2019 08:13

ShadMOrdre wrote:Please do keep in mind, with over 200 unique biomes, and 1000 plus unique ecosytems, largely derived from essentially 4 textures and a 16 color palette, you may still encounter lots of brown, olive, and drab green. Saturation levels on the colored grass files are far more sensitive to changes than on the greyscale variants, but I'm open to suggestions, pull requests, constructive criticism, and forum ideas.

I also used duane's palette from his mapgen mod, expanding the 8 color to a 16 color palette. This made the world entirely too green, making biomes appear less natural. I've left the palette colors available in the mod, and can, even make a setting to enable them, if you'd like.



Trying to make landscapes in a voxel-gridded world look familiar and as natural as possible is very interesting and... most often counterproductive :) The "uncanny valley" phenomenon, most often referred to as an unpleasant appearance of computer-rendered human faces and physique, also occurs in other parts of video game visuals. So, keep in mind that some natural landscapes do look very depressing, especially during late autumn and winter (in the northern hemisphere):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_madness

(Also in my part of the world -- central Poland, Ukraine, there are some really depressing per se vast plains).

It's probably most often better to stylize textures in some coherent way so that they look just pleasant and not trying to photoreastically imitate reality:

(Ethereal part of the Sunny tp)

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Felfalido » Mon Oct 14, 2019 08:35

GreenDimond wrote:
TumeniNodes wrote:kissthis.jpg

I have seen everything.

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OSS:
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Is this the Minetest version of the Alphabet Game? :P
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Oct 14, 2019 08:47

Termos, I couldn't agree more. Our perceptions, our tastes, our choices, are very subjective. One mans trash is still trash, but someone else may still find it useful.

By realistic, I certainly do not mean that it actually resembles what I see out my window. But, as a hobby, as a potential learning tool, I still try. By realistic, I simply mean landscapes that are varied in appearance and makeup. As compared to most biome definitions, which mostly appear to be rather monotonous, I think by adding ore defs for multiple dirt / grass combos within each biome, allows me to break up the monotony of biomes. And MT engine handles it rather well.

As for the textures, this is true. I really don't use TPs. Most of the textures I've assembled are from existing mods, mods that I feel keep the "theme" of MT / MTG. 16x16 pixel 16 color textures. Textures of larger size, say 32x32 or 64x64 are scaled, so that the pixel size on screen is constant across the various nodes.

In doing all this, I've taught myself a lot more about ecology, plants, trees, landforms, and more. I hope to actually add the scientific names for what has been added. Kids play this game. Might as well fill their heads with real world knowledge, instead of generic terms like dirt and stone. Teach them why certain plants or trees only grow under certain conditions and in certain soils. They are playing a game. They can be learning too. This, I think, is what really drives my efforts on completing this project. My own son has learned quite a bit about the real world, simply by playing a game he loves. He learns, without the school building, and without even knowing that he is learning.

That's bang for the buck right there.

I've actually taken to naming some of the areas I've encountered on these maps as "Uncanny Shores" or "Uncanny Vista". And while this is a block world game, I've even encountered some areas that actually resemble places I've been. Uncanny? Perhaps. Therapeutic, for the homesick? Perhaps. Educational for the kids? I do hope.

Shad

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by jas » Mon Oct 14, 2019 13:13

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Sokomine » Mon Oct 14, 2019 14:17

ShadMOrdre wrote:Sokomine, if you are interested, I have previously modified the settlements mod to use lua tables, and have converted the bulk of mg_villages villages from .mts to lua tables.

I still see no real point in that. .mts is very convenient and efficient for storing manually built things. In a way, mg_villages already uses lua tables - after all mods are written in lua, and tables the most convenient storage format. It's just more close to the way data is stored in the .mts table and less human readable. And it's just an internal representation, necessary for placement at mapgen time. It might make sense to add an import filter for the "lua table" format so that such files can be read as well.

ShadMOrdre wrote:I use multiple copies of the settlements mod, each uniquely named, to enable multiple types of villages.

Multiple copies sounds...dangerous from a coder's point of view. In how far do they differ, codewise and how they appear in the game?

ShadMOrdre wrote:I'm wanting to finalize an API from the settlements mod, adding some of the logic from your own city_builder mod.

My citybuilder mod definitely needs more love and care. If not by me, than at least by someone else intrested :-) Do you plan to make the villages extensible with citybuilder mechanisms? What citybuilder mostly lacks are mobs that actually build the houses. It's not as easy as I first thought (walk there, call a function, be done) because the mob has to pretend it's building (walk there, turn into right direction, wait, wield tool, show dig animation, wield block to be placed, show dig animation, place block, and *now* you can move on...).

ShadMOrdre wrote:Here's a pic of the sand city.
Image

Is it supposed to be a ruins type of village? It looks a bit strange. The stairs and slabs are missing, nodes from my cottages mod are also missing, and the torches are not properly aligned.

Here's how my experiment with the circular villages would look like with the sandcity village type. Sandcity forces desert sand underground which does look out of place here - but it does illustrate how and where the buildings are placed. The village type lacks something that could work as village center like your nice fountain in your picture. But that'll be relatively easy to do. Having a network of paths is much more difficult, and I have no good solution yet.
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The reason I'm looking into this smaller village type is to have less houses with less mobs required to roam around, and also to provide something for those players who don't want flat villages.
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by texmex » Mon Oct 14, 2019 14:56

@Sokomine What happened with your "flat area detection" code? Is it usable yet?
 

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Sokomine » Mon Oct 14, 2019 16:06

texmex wrote:@Sokomine What happened with your "flat area detection" code? Is it usable yet?

The flat area detection code is used in my basic_houses mod. It places houses randomly on flat area that was detected that way:
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My lakes mod also makes heavy use of the heightmap in order to find holes that might be filled with water.

The new circular villages approach from above works slightly diffrent. Rochambeau searches places by scanning in a widening, roughly circular pattern and ensuring that the distance between houses is wide enough. This won't be optimal for the flat area detection - because that can only tell how large a building can get at a given spot without having to flatten. Many places are not suitable for anything remotedly usable. After all, even a house with just 3x3 m inside will need walls - 2 additional nodes - and often an overhanging roof - so we end up with a minimum size of a house of 7m in one direction. Still, the heightmap is useful. The newest approach just doesn't care about the area that will be covered by the building - it just takes a look at the height differences at the borders of the to-be-building and accepts only a limited overall difference.

This development screenshot shows the relevant borders (brick blocks) where the height was evaluated:
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Eran » Mon Oct 14, 2019 18:53

Image

Having fun making parrots parrot.
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by texmex » Mon Oct 14, 2019 19:30

Eran wrote:Image

Having fun making parrots parrot.


This is super interesting! Will you post the code eventually? I'm looking for a framework for procedurally generated natural language in-game myself, so you see how this is getting me excited. =)
 

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Eran » Mon Oct 14, 2019 20:05

The part of the code that's used for generating sentences is already done, I've attached it to this post.
This uses markov chains to create the language. Basically it stores how likely each word is to follow another and randomly creates sentences based on it.
How useful it is for you depends on your use case. Markov chains don't work to convey a meaning but are great at generating themed nonsense.
Here's an alternative post I've made based on the post for The End, as an example.

+ Spoiler


oss:
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Oct 14, 2019 23:29

Sokomine,

My version of Rochambeau's settlements mod uses Lua tables, instead of .mts file. All schematics are loaded into an array at runtime, loading very quickly. I use Lua tables, simply because I can change the materials on the fly. One thing I've added, is rather than use hard-coded node defs, I use variables, that can be changed at will. Such as in this scenario: Read biome data, use biome stone for base material, build building with base material. I don't even actually have to code anything additional, just supply a table of materials to be used. The schem uses what it needs from the table.

The settlements mod draws paths between the buildings. I'm not sure if you've disable that in your version, but it does at least connect the buildings. I like this mod, because I think there is an easier solution for roads, and this mod will actually enable some of what I am considering.

The citybuilder mod allows upgrading buildings, but by completely replacing the schematic with a new building. I don't like this, in that upgrading a building should mean upgrading the materials used. To facilitate upgrading a building to a more powerful version of itself, it makes more sense to require a new building. Either clear the area of the existing building, or build elsewhere. This is more like real life. I have not begun this integration though.

As for the mobs part of the equation, I prefer Zorman2000s AdvancedNPC API, the mg_villages_npc example, and the npcbuildqueue mod by Evert Prants ("IcyDiamond" I think). The NPC's only need to have additional "jobs" created for them, the npcbuildqueue needs to fit into the jobs framework / concept of AdvancedNPC. They work, and I use them regularly. I just haven't devoted much time, as of yet, to do some of what I've mentioned here.

The settlements mod defines a maximum height difference variable, that allows one to define the "flatness" of an area upon which to place the settlement. Each building is simply placed according to where the circle is being drawn at that moment, with no regard to the "flatness" of the terrain where the building gets placed. It's rather simplistic, but it keeps buildings off of cliffs. As for the max size of a schematic, I get inconsistent results, usually depending on the mod load, how much of the map I've emerged during this instance, and generally with any schem larger than 50m on either horizontal plane. While I can place larger schems, the settlements mod seems to not like schems larger than 40m. Height isn't usually affected.

Running multiple copies of settlements actually means, customized versions of the same mod. Each uniquely name, with all global and local variables well encapsulated, so as not to overwrite any of the other "settlements" mods running. The proof for this is in the multiple screenshots, where villages are shown.

texmex and Eran,

I would also suggest looking into AIML, a rather straightforward, easy to use chatbot. My experiences with AIML driven NPCs was "uncanny". That's the power of AIML. You can tailor AIML as much as you like, for smaller game based conversations to a fully learning "self-aware" AI. It won the Turing prize, 20 years ago, for it's power. I used it in Opensim to create NPCs that were frequently mistaken for other players.


On another note, I played with making a new palette, this morning. I used my own existing palette, and a derivative of duane's mapgen palette. The results are more pleasing, I must say. This endeavor will be made to be settable, so that users can not only choose a palette, but also the underlying textures, as well as, set saturation levels.

Please comment on which palettes look better.

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by duane » Tue Oct 15, 2019 01:27

I don't like mts files for the same reason I don't like systemd -- it's unnecessary optimization that prevents the use of simple system tools. I can easily use sed on a table file. I can't do that with an mts. Although, if the minetest place_schematic function handled rotation properly, I'd be a bit more comfortable using them. I suppose mts makes a little more sense on android, but not much. How much space do the schematics take up compared to the code? How much memory do tables occupy compared to a chunk of 3D noise?

Now I need a big schematic.

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by v-rob » Tue Oct 15, 2019 01:28

I'm sorry. I don't hate on people; I don't do it as a person, ever. But I'm human. If I've hurt your feelings, tell me as much, and I'll apologize. Don't hurt mine in return.

But to honor your request, here are some assorted screenshots:

Working on an idea I had a long time ago:
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The central courtyard (I don't get why only four will grow blueberries naturally; all of them started without):
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Talk about an interesting natural tunnel (another reason why v6 underground is so much superior!):
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Temple of Vulcan

by duane » Tue Oct 15, 2019 02:59

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Lucifer Bound

by duane » Tue Oct 15, 2019 07:16

The walls fairly rang with the screams of the damned. What savage rituals were conducted in this terrible place? How could any mortal mind abase itself so deeply that it considered this monstrosity to be its maker?

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by firefox » Tue Oct 15, 2019 09:57

trying out new things:

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Sokomine » Tue Oct 15, 2019 20:35

ShadMOrdre wrote:My version of Rochambeau's settlements mod uses Lua tables, instead of .mts file. All schematics are loaded into an array at runtime, loading very quickly. I use Lua tables, simply because I can change the materials on the fly.

Er, well, yes :-) In how far is that diffrent from mg_villages? My internal representation will most likely be diffrent from yours, but in the end it's a lua table. mg_villages just *reads* .mts files (same as .we files and to some very limited degree MC .schematic files) - it doesn't use any of the built-inplace_schematic* functions (well, apart from saving buildings with the build chest). It works on a VoxelManip array - kind of copies from one table to another when placing something.

ShadMOrdre wrote:The settlements mod draws paths between the buildings. I'm not sure if you've disable that in your version, but it does at least connect the buildings.

I've tested that previously with the settlements mod (see below). My current experimental village generator doesn't have such code yet.
Image

ShadMOrdre wrote:As for the max size of a schematic, I get inconsistent results, usually depending on the mod load, how much of the map I've emerged during this instance, and generally with any schem larger than 50m on either horizontal plane. While I can place larger schems, the settlements mod seems to not like schems larger than 40m. Height isn't usually affected.

Well, yes. A mapchunk is usually 80 nodes in each direction. Mods working on the heightmap and in the current mapchunk have only these nodes to work with. If you're lucky and got extremly flat land, you might put an 80x80m building there...but that'd be about it. Finding pieces of flat land is a lot easier if only a small area is needed. I think that's one of the reasons why the houses in the settlements mod are stretched in height.

duane wrote:Although, if the minetest place_schematic function handled rotation properly, I'd be a bit more comfortable using them.

Oh yes, that'd be great. Sadly, it's rather unlikely as those functions are mostly used for placing decoration at mapgen time. Decoration doesn't care about stairs...

duane wrote:I suppose mts makes a little more sense on android, but not much. How much space do the schematics take up compared to the code? How much memory do tables occupy compared to a chunk of 3D noise?

Just compare it to the old WorldEdit format (one node name per line)....mts is a very compact format. It can also easily be saved (that part works fine) inside WorldEdit and exchanged between players. And building detailled houses is IMHO easier with an editor written for it (namely, MT :-)) rather than trying to write it flat in code.
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by duane » Wed Oct 16, 2019 02:22

Sokomine wrote:Just compare it to the old WorldEdit format (one node name per line)....mts is a very compact format. It can also easily be saved (that part works fine) inside WorldEdit and exchanged between players. And building detailled houses is IMHO easier with an editor written for it (namely, MT :-)) rather than trying to write it flat in code.


The point is, the amount of space you save is trivial compared to the total in use. As a great scientist once said, the first rule of optimizing is, don't. And all of those other points apply to tables as well. Still, use what you like. That's why they make more than one flavor.

I've been having fun with the nine-meter schematics in roomgen, but anything larger is a pain to build and work with. I translated them all into geomorphs, and now they take up anywhere from ten to fifty (short) lines of code, and save the same amount of memory when loaded. Geomorphs will always be smaller than uncompressed schematics, and generally smaller than all but the most complicated mts files, for what little that's worth.

They're easier (for me) to visualize and edit, since I can edit an entire block of pixels with a few keystrokes. The only disadvantage is having to recreate the whole structure in-game rather than just making a change to a node while I'm editing. And, unless you really love repetitive work while building in-game, constructing anything larger than a hut is ten times more fun with geomorphs. Even with my newly optimized schematic functions, I can't place the schematics on a voxelmanip any faster.

The new version of my experimental roomgen, below, doesn't use any schematics.

Every now and then, I think about recoding the geomorph routines in C. Then, I take an asprin and lie down until the feeling goes away.

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New Contest Idea

by duane » Wed Oct 16, 2019 06:03

Art in 10 (20, 30?) nodes or less. Or has it been done?

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by rubenwardy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 06:54

Please note that schematics actually has two different file formats, the most common one is a binary format but a Lua-based format is also supported. Minetest has functions for converting between both of these. The main benefit of schematics isn't so much the file format but how much faster they are to place than using set_node, and how much easier compared to LVMs

CTF uses schematics, and I dread to think how big they would be if they weren't in binary format. The maps are 220x100x220. Size is important as they are checked into a version control repository, although you could argue that it would be better to use a text based format which could be properly diffed
 

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by duane » Wed Oct 16, 2019 08:52

rubenwardy wrote:CTF uses schematics, and I dread to think how big they would be if they weren't in binary format. The maps are 220x100x220. Size is important as they are checked into a version control repository, although you could argue that it would be better to use a text based format which could be properly diffed


That's a big schematic. : )

However, I suspect that a clever admin would be running his repository on a compressed file system, since anything in it is likely to be very compressible. I'm told that git already has compression built in, but I haven't paid much attention to it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Bridgeworks (158 lines of geomorph [ouch!])

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Sokomine » Wed Oct 16, 2019 23:41

duane wrote:Still, use what you like. That's why they make more than one flavor.

Exactly :-) Was just puzzled about why so many people seem to like tables. I wouldn't be able to build the houses I build using that method.

duane wrote:And, unless you really love repetitive work while building in-game, constructing anything larger than a hut is ten times more fun with geomorphs.

I havn't played with geomorphs yet. They certainly do sound fun. And yes, really large buildings ought not to be built stone-by-stone in survival. WorldEdit has a lot of useful functions to avoid repetitive work: Elements can be built once, copied over and adjusted. The old MC creative server I started building on handed WorldEdit-like commands out when the player showed that he could handle it - i.e. show that you can build symmetrical - get the copy function (by promotion through moderators).

My current project (built stone-by-stone in survival):
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duane wrote:Every now and then, I think about recoding the geomorph routines in C. Then, I take an asprin and lie down until the feeling goes away.

*g* Understandable.

rubenwardy wrote:The main benefit of schematics isn't so much the file format but how much faster they are to place than using set_node, and how much easier compared to LVMs

For my purposes, it's the opposite: The .mts format is useful and practical for storing a building - but close to useless for writing back to the map (no support of rotation for facedir nodes etc.)

(For fun) Things gone terribly wrong in mapgen:
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Re: Post your screenshots!

by jas » Thu Oct 17, 2019 21:19

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Re: Post your screenshots!

by Chibi ghost » Fri Oct 18, 2019 16:12

working on a inn
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