How can the minetest community be made bigger?

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by Beerholder » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:31

I see lots of posts about default game being to simplistic and a bad first impression, and making it more interesting (downloading mods) is not that clear for complete beginners. But at the same time there is a concern that it takes away the devs' time to maintain a complex sub game/ default game? And including other community created sub games could lead to issues being reported against Minetest rather than the sub game?

Not sure if this has been mentioned or suggested before (probably but too lazy to search): Maybe create a community maintained third party sub game/ mod combo registry or call it DLC (as gamers are familiar with that term?). Name as such: "Third Party" or "Community Maintained". Provide this registry either as text file distributed in the game or as an online file containing name, description of the game, forum links, where to report issues and link to github/ zip file? Click on the sub game or mod combo, download the game/ mods, decompress and/ or put in games folder, create world and start the game. Example list (where Technology Game is e.g. a "mod combo" which downloads Mesecons, Technic and Pipeworks):

Code: Select all
Third Party DLC
Name               Description
Lord of the Rings  You shall not pass!!
Technology Game    Build computers and advanced machines
Extreme Survival   Survival, hard core difficuty
Mars Survival      Survive on planet Mars
Legend of Minetest Play Zelda in Minetest
Etc.


It should be noted that, even when explicitly mentioning that these sub games are third party and providing links where to go to in case of problems, quite a bit of QA should be taken into consideration by the sub game creators before it is included in the list. Also it might be wise to make a simplistic "sub game depends on Minetest version" system e.g. >=0.4.16 or 0.4.14,0.4.15 or 0.4.10-0.4.16.

In the sub game list in the UI (maybe explicitly provide a third party/ DLC list?), filter games unsupported for that particular Minetest version by default but provide e.g. a "Show Unsupported Games" or "Show for Current Version Only" checkbox. When choosing an unsupported game, warn if versions do not mismatch.

It might be a problem that if a new Minetest version arrives, there are not a lot of sub games available in the list. Then again, I think sub game devs could start testing before the next Minetest release, and there is (or, there should at least be) a bit of time before a binary build is available for e.g. Windows, Android, MacOS.

In case of issues or the sub game creator not being active/ reachable when the sub game is broken with a new version, then at some point remove sub game from the registry.

The fact that your sub game is in the registry and promoted as such could be an incentive for you as sub game dev to keep it up to date and up to par, and make sure that the compatible version string in the registry is updated properly by reaching out to the registry maintainers. But when you don't want to do anything with the sub game anymore, there is no issue whatsoever, no strings attached. It will automatically disappear from the version filtered list in the newer Minetest versions, unless a player explicitly wants to try a game tested on an older version only and ticks/ unticks the filter checkbox.

Who would maintain this registry? Could the active sub game creators be given the task of doing so? (as it is in their interest). And, obviously, this requires changes in the Minetest launcher ..... (maybe I could give it a shot at some point in time when I am less busy :-)

Anyways, looking for the best balance between devs focusing on the core and keep the default game simple, offering a show case of what is possible as soon as you start the game, more interesting game choices for players, making it clear what to expect and where to go in case of issues and allowing sub game devs to maintain the registry so that they can promote their work. But then again, I might be a bit too ambitious ;-)
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by saavedra29 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 14:16

For a community to be big it needs a big development team. If the players increase but the develpment team stays stable it's a matter of time for the project to collapse. I would suggest, if some core developers have spare time, to do some kind of "online conference" with topic i.e. "how do i spend an afternoon fixing a bug in Minetest". I guess there is some free software that combines share screen and voice. This should not of course be a C++ tutorial or how to use Github, but the "way of thinking and acting" when some experienced developer tries to fix a bug in the project. Or an explaination of how the core enginge is structured. In general. Without code details. The most difficult thing is to do the beginning and for this you have to understand the basic concept. I'm sure a lot of people would like to contribute but get stuck at this entry stage. And i guess this happens more to people who started messing at a late age and alone with programming (like me) and were always stuck outside of any development team because they didn't have the strenght to break somehow "the cell of the egg":)
Also it would be nice if the bugs where separated to 2 groups: Those for beginner developers and those for intermediate-advanced. Everyone would gain from this. The experienced developers wouldn't spend time on fairly easy (or even boring) tasks for them and the beginners would find an "open door" to create something usefull and learn things.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by ABJ » Fri Apr 14, 2017 15:37

Ah, yet another couple of ideas seemingly never intended to come into fruition.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by muhdnurhidayat » Wed Apr 26, 2017 13:17

toby109tt wrote:
linushsao wrote:Multi-language supported in chat,for other Chinese-tradition language users.
I don't speak Chinese Myself but I can see this being really useful for people who do

I know the quoted one is quite old and you could already use multi-language in chats now, but please read until the end because the font system used itself is still broken.

Please make the unicode-support be standard in all version platform of Minetest, I've seen people who wrote that the mods file needs to be in unicode for it to work with unicode, but I have a few mods that I've tried to use unicode texts without any success even though I've checked the mods itself and their Lua files are already encoded in unicode. I'm on stable Android ver 0.4.15 if that helps.

Also, the backwards compatibility default font seems to fail, I still can't see some of unicode text with the default font and I had to change it myself to other fonts to see them. It is annoying when I need to leave and temporarily change font and rejoin server to see certain unicode text then leave and rejoin yet again with another font to see other kind of unicode text.

+ For those who loves read only


All these unicode text should appear on default font, or at least in the compatibility font but it don't.
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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by muhdnurhidayat » Wed Apr 26, 2017 15:45

ABJ wrote:I can't use my native language in Minetest :(

Some new languages might not available in the stable Minetest yet, so check it directly at Weblate to see if your native language existed, then you can download the translation file from Weblate and put to your Minetest directory to use them.
By directory, I mean somewhere along
Code: Select all
Minetest/po/{language code}/
.
Here's the link: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/minetest/minetest/

Currently, the translations for Minetest available in Weblate are Belarusian, Catalan, Chinese (Simplified), Chinese (Traditional), Czech, Danish, Dutch, Esperanto, Estonian, French, German, Hebrew, Hungarian, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Kyrgyz, Lithuanian, Lojban, Malay, Norwegian Bokmål, Polish, Portuguese, Portuguese (Brazil), Romanian, Russian, Serbian (cyrillic), Spanish, Swahili, Swedish, Turkish, and Ukrainian.

But if Minetest is not available in your native language even in Weblate, then join in Weblate and translate it. After you join, you can click on "Tools" > "Start new translation"

+ that's what I did for Malay
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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by ABJ » Wed Apr 26, 2017 17:13

Darn it my language wasn't on the list I have to contact the maintainers :-(
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by DcNdrew » Tue May 02, 2017 20:03

The actual question is: What does Minetest need to make itself more interesting?
One word: concept.
That's it. Why do you want to play? Because you can code your own game? For who? Minetest gamers?

If Minetest starts to be a game itself (or someone makes an official, but cool game), it must to be interesting in its own way. You can say Minetest is not a clone of Minecraft, but hey! Its name is Minetest. Not craft, but test. Association. You can't evade it.
The look, the feel, everything makes people to compare Mine "craft" and Mine "test".

If you want more gamers, make a concept. Even if it isn't the Engine directly. And make tiny things what add to the game a special feeling.
Here is an example: In the Nether when you want some glowstone, you must build up or forward until you reach it. If you want to be quick, you just build a pole or a one block wide console and start to hit the glowstone. When it breaks the powder falls down, right? If you need much of it, any glowstone which landed in lava is a pain, right? You feel loss. Which makes you urge to play more.
But what happen when you try this in Minetest? As soon as you broke the block, it appears in your inventory. No need, no loss, no fight. It isn't frustrating enough. Too clean and happy. You will feel less satisfaction and exciting if you reach something.
I hope you understand.

Other example: Minecraft has pixelated textures. Everywhere! Everything is pixelated and this is an example why you feel a concept.
Minetest? Pixelated texture on blocks and items, but everything seems too clear, bright, and the menu and inventory has clean and gradient colors. Those two doesn't work together!
Blocks and items aren't looking the same. Pickaxe looks like it's made with Paint, but blocks are clean on the edges and have smooth appearance.

One more thing:
You can ride the waves. You can see what's happening in the game world. In 2016 many farming game came out.
Stardew Valley was a boom. Now a mod, called Harvest Festival tries to make the feeling of Harvest Moon too. It's a bit late, but the mod is cool in some kind of alpha/beta phase.

If Minetest came out a "Farming Life Edition", people might would be interested in it. Of course it should has reworked GUI.

Here is another idea: Minecraft added autojump. It's shitty and annoying. Steve can step up on half slabs. Building Bricks mod brought half slab grass blocks and the whole terrain became more smooth an easy to walk on.
Minetest can try to make its terrain more smooth too.

Do you understand what do I want to say? Concepts. Ideas. There isn't any wrong if you are rethink and rework things.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by DcNdrew » Wed May 03, 2017 02:30

One more thing: Did you play Starmade? Massive, moving ships? That's what Minetest needs.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by ABJ » Wed May 03, 2017 08:44

Does a game that so loudly claims to not be Minecraft have to use Minecraft's inherently limited crafting system? Do we need to limit crafting to a 3x3 grid? Mods need large amounts of annoying middle-blocks that have no other use but be crafted to create expensive items. It's just stupid. If Minetest is not Minecraft, then why???
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by TumeniNodes » Wed May 03, 2017 16:43

Are you saying, you think it may draw more users, if the crafting system were different?
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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by ABJ » Wed May 03, 2017 16:54

A different idea - a more free crafting system where you can have do new things that can't be done in Minecraft will certainly crash a lot of the "Minecraft rip-off"ers.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by MineYoshi » Wed May 03, 2017 21:17

ABJ wrote:A different idea - a more free crafting system where you can have do new things that can't be done in Minecraft will certainly crash a lot of the "Minecraft rip-off"ers.

If we could just put the items and we could choose what to craft from a recipe list it would be a lot easier.
Happy new Year 2020: let's all aim finally for a clear vision of what we want to make of Minetest!
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by diogogomes » Wed May 03, 2017 22:52

I found this topic because I've been thinking a lot that Minetest Community could have an even bigger and more diverse than it currently has.

I have noticed that there are more and more channels on YouTube about Minetest, which is very good for community growth, but when you look for something else about the game, everything becomes very confusing.



Over the last years, I've been researching more on google and github than on the site, forum or wiki (I know it's bad and I'm not proud of it).
What has bring me to this is that everything is still confusing and difficult to find, read and understand.
Or you learn by yourself or you give up.



Forum has an old-fashioned design, is not adaptable to mobile devices, it lacks many features and have security holes.
I know,
... if it's not broken, why change?

I think we have to give up this line of thinking and start innovating.

It 's not difficult if we all work together.



About wiki, besides being separated into two (wiki and dev.wiki), is quite incomplete. It has a fairly old version of Mediawiki that is no longer supported and not receive security fixes.

The translations are quite difficult to maintain, but Mediawiki has a very good and easy translation system: if it does not have a translation, it presents a warning and the English version.
This way there are no longer two versions of the same page with different content in each language.



About the site, the only thing we should change is the list of extras (mobs, textures, sub-games, etc). It might be better to replace these pages with a registry server (Yarn, Bower, npm). Something official like Minetest Bower search.

It's simple to implement and anyone can register a new extra.



I don't know if there is a page or post to discuss the future plans with a roadmap of everything unrelated to the game development (website, forum, wiki).

If it exists, sorry but I could not find it.

If it does not exist, I think it should be the first thing to do.
Then it will be more easier to get volunteers for these tasks.



I think that this should be the way (outside the game development) to consolidate the community, grow healthy and encourage all players (and also newbies) to contribute something to Minetest.




I'm not a game contributor but I'm available for everything else (planning, wiki, forum, mods, design, web development, ...).


You can send me a pm.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by MineYoshi » Thu May 04, 2017 02:20

diogogomes wrote:I found this topic because I've been thinking a lot that Minetest Community could have an even bigger and more diverse than it currently has.

I have noticed that there are more and more channels on YouTube about Minetest, which is very good for community growth, but when you look for something else about the game, everything becomes very confusing.



Over the last years, I've been researching more on google and github than on the site, forum or wiki (I know it's bad and I'm not proud of it).
What has bring me to this is that everything is still confusing and difficult to find, read and understand.
Or you learn by yourself or you give up.



Forum has an old-fashioned design, is not adaptable to mobile devices, it lacks many features and have security holes.
I know,
... if it's not broken, why change?

I think we have to give up this line of thinking and start innovating.

It 's not difficult if we all work together.



About wiki, besides being separated into two (wiki and dev.wiki), is quite incomplete. It has a fairly old version of Mediawiki that is no longer supported and not receive security fixes.

The translations are quite difficult to maintain, but Mediawiki has a very good and easy translation system: if it does not have a translation, it presents a warning and the English version.
This way there are no longer two versions of the same page with different content in each language.



About the site, the only thing we should change is the list of extras (mobs, textures, sub-games, etc). It might be better to replace these pages with a registry server (Yarn, Bower, npm). Something official like Minetest Bower search.

It's simple to implement and anyone can register a new extra.



I don't know if there is a page or post to discuss the future plans with a roadmap of everything unrelated to the game development (website, forum, wiki).

If it exists, sorry but I could not find it.

If it does not exist, I think it should be the first thing to do.
Then it will be more easier to get volunteers for these tasks.



I think that this should be the way (outside the game development) to consolidate the community, grow healthy and encourage all players (and also newbies) to contribute something to Minetest.




I'm not a game contributor but I'm available for everything else (planning, wiki, forum, mods, design, web development, ...).


You can send me a pm.

If you have the time to do all of that, go ahead.
Happy new Year 2020: let's all aim finally for a clear vision of what we want to make of Minetest!
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by muhdnurhidayat » Thu May 04, 2017 05:07

EDIT: I just realized it's you, diogogomes ... thanks for contributing in wiki! :D

diogogomes wrote:I have noticed that there are more and more channels on YouTube about Minetest, which is very good for community growth, but when you look for something else about the game, everything becomes very confusing.

Most of them are same like us, they can't really contribute to the game development, so they make more videos on Minetest to spread about the game. I have plan to make videos too, but I need to revive my laptop first.


diogogomes wrote:Over the last years, I've been researching more on google and github than on the site, forum or wiki (I know it's bad and I'm not proud of it).
What has bring me to this is that everything is still confusing and difficult to find, read and understand.
Or you learn by yourself or you give up.

Maybe more people needs to write more about Minetest in their websites and let Google crawl the contents so more Minetest-related articles will appear in the search. We would also need to contact someone from reliable review website to make some review on Minetest.


diogogomes wrote:Forum has an old-fashioned design, is not adaptable to mobile devices, it lacks many features and have security holes.

The forum layout is fine for mobile devices if you're that kind of person who don't like extra app (read: Tapatalk) to use the forum and just use it on mobile browser, because the current layout is not too heavy and I could load the forum just fine using my 64kbps (8KB/s) mobile internet (on 4G LTE btw, in case anyone wonders if I use GPRS/EDGE because of that slow speed).

However, for those people who actually install almost all apps available once they're released to get as much information as possible, then the forum is not adaptable to other forum apps as it is (presumably) outdated.

In case the forum is upgraded then make sure it's mobile-friendly and not too heavy to load.


diogogomes wrote:About wiki, besides being separated into two (wiki and dev.wiki), is quite incomplete. It has a fairly old version of Mediawiki that is no longer supported and not receive security fixes.

I think it is incomplete because no one write certain articles, either they don't know what to write or they're afraid they write wrong informations. (twoelk is checking forums so don't worry to contribute, twoelk and others will fix the wrong information, provided they know it is wrong when they read it xD)

I was just written the page for intllib (which I think is quite important) because there's no article for intllib in wiki in before. I have plans to write about playing Minetest in Android, but others are free to write it first. Some players don't know how to play Minetest in Android, like how to separate the items from its stack (move the stack with one finger, and while holding it, tap another finger)


diogogomes wrote:The translations are quite difficult to maintain, but Mediawiki has a very good and easy translation system: if it does not have a translation, it presents a warning and the English version.
This way there are no longer two versions of the same page with different content in each language.

Yes, I agree that the MediaWiki's translation is better, we don't need to even create the translation page. Just launch the translator tool, you could translate it side-by-side with original text displayed so no more missed translation and the tool will create the translated page for you based on what you wrote in the tool.

Btw, the translated page in MediaWiki is in the same format as the one used on Minetest Wiki (english article name/language code) but it uses some code that it didn't display that "english article name/language code" into the H1 header, instead it display the translated title following what's written in the tool, so it looks as if it's a page specific to their language even though it's really a subpage of English article. You could look it in the URL.
Image


diogogomes wrote:I don't know if there is a page or post to discuss the future plans with a roadmap of everything unrelated to the game development (website, forum, wiki).

If it exists, sorry but I could not find it.

If it does not exist, I think it should be the first thing to do.
Then it will be more easier to get volunteers for these tasks.

AFAIK, most of discussions were done via IRC, including game development... Did you read the list of subgames? You would have noticed "as discussed on IRC" somewhere in the article, which means many things are actually discussed on IRC.

+ I could understand why would people discuss on IRC instead of forum.


About forum threads, no one replied in IRC when I ask if we have a thread to specifically discuss the wiki...

For the website, I think they discuss it in Github, as the website is actually available on Github. (http://www.minetest.net is really http://minetest.github.io) contribute to the official website at https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io

Anyway, I think it's safe to discuss in "General discussions" as long as it is related to Minetest, be it Minetest's Wiki, website or forum itself.
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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by Linuxdirk » Thu May 04, 2017 05:29

diogogomes wrote:Forum has an old-fashioned design, is not adaptable to mobile devices, it lacks many features and have security holes.

You perfectly summarized what phpBB is. This outdated (in code and functionality) board system combines anything a modern web forum should avoid. And the design isn't even the greatest issue with it.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by diogogomes » Sun May 07, 2017 00:39

MineYoshi wrote:If you have the time to do all of that, go ahead.

We don't need time. We need better tools and better collaboration.

I can start anytime but someone need to grants me permission on server where forum and wiki are.


Linuxdirk wrote:This outdated (in code and functionality) board system combines anything a modern web forum should avoid

I know. That's what worries me the most.


muhdnurhidayat wrote:I just realized it's you, diogogomes ... thanks for contributing in wiki!

Yes, it's me. It's only a little contribution. I wish contribute more but I need wiki engine (mediawiki) updated and talk with some admin to show my structure sketches.


muhdnurhidayat wrote:Maybe more people needs to write more about Minetest in their websites and let Google crawl the contents so more Minetest-related articles will appear in the search. We would also need to contact someone from reliable review website to make some review on Minetest.

What I meant is that the official information (site, forum and wiki) is still confusing and difficult to find, read and understand after so many years. I wish we could stop using Google and we can just use the official documentation.


muhdnurhidayat wrote:The forum layout is fine for mobile devices if you're that kind of person who don't like extra app (read: Tapatalk) to use the forum and just use it on mobile browser, because the current layout is not too heavy and I could load the forum just fine using my 64kbps (8KB/s) mobile internet (on 4G LTE btw, in case anyone wonders if I use GPRS/EDGE because of that slow speed).

However, for those people who actually install almost all apps available once they're released to get as much information as possible, then the forum is not adaptable to other forum apps as it is (presumably) outdated.

In case the forum is upgraded then make sure it's mobile-friendly and not too heavy to load.

Even with glasses and a 5-inch smartphone, I can not read without zooming.

We don't need a mobile app. We just only need a Progressive Web App that is a website that allows create a shortcut in mobile devices and works like an app without installation (and works offline too). You can read more about were.
One FOSS example is Discourse. You can try these examples: Manjaro Forum, The freeCodeCamp Forum, OSMC Forums...


muhdnurhidayat wrote:but it uses some code

It is a standard out there called Content Translation that allows editors to create translations right next to the original article and automates the boring steps: copying text across browser tabs, looking for corresponding links and categories, etc.


muhdnurhidayat wrote:About forum threads, no one replied in IRC when I ask if we have a thread to specifically discuss the wiki...

I think that we need some type of Open Source Community organization but only admins can establish that.

This article (Four types of open source communities) is quite old but is an introduction for those who want to know more.
 

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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by rubenwardy » Sun May 07, 2017 00:57

diogogomes wrote:We don't need time. We need better tools and better collaboration.


Which requires time.

diogogomes wrote:We don't need a mobile app. We just only need a Progressive Web App that is a website that allows create a shortcut in mobile devices and works like an app without installation (and works offline too). You can read more about were.
One FOSS example is Discourse. You can try these examples: Manjaro Forum, The freeCodeCamp Forum, OSMC Forums...


Or at least a site with responsive design

diogogomes wrote:This article (Four types of open source communities) is quite old but is an introduction for those who want to know more.


I don't really see the point of linking to this article. We are already a "developer community" in that the developers own parts of the legal rights.

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You can edit the website by submitting PRs to https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io
and I see you have a wiki account already.

The phpbb theme is here: https://github.com/minetest/forum.minet ... _template1
although I agree that phpbb sucks.
 

diogogomes
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Re: How can the minetest community be made bigger?

by diogogomes » Sun May 07, 2017 01:20

rubenwardy wrote:Which requires time.

We have 10360 registered members in forum. If 5000 contribute only require 30 minutes per week or less. Time is relative when there is synergy in community.

rubenwardy wrote:Or at least a site with responsive design.

Yes, but this is a forum and it's longer to code than a website.

rubenwardy wrote:I don't really see the point of linking to this article. We are already a "developer community" in that the developers own parts of the legal rights.

It's just an example to answer "How can the minetest community be made bigger?" because no one is sure who to talk to for an answer (everyone I've talked to, says that it's hard get an answer in irc).

rubenwardy wrote:You can edit the website by submitting PRs to https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io
and I see you have a wiki account already.

I have a wiki account and I wish contribute more and translate but without a proper updated version is demotivating.

rubenwardy wrote:The phpbb theme is here: https://github.com/minetest/forum.minet ... _template1
although I agree that phpbb sucks.

Very sincerely, I will not contribute to a phpbb theme. I apologize but phpbb does not follow my programming pattern.
 

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