Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

Light levels and crop and saplling growth

Poll ended at Tue Jan 10, 2017 21:39

1 - No Change: Light level 14 is needed to grow anything. A mese lamp will be needed to grow anything underground. A prettier mese light will be added.
22
42%
2 - Allow torches to grow saplings underground. Doesn't change crops - those still need sunlight to grow. This would change the sapling to grow at the light level that torches produce.
1
2%
3 - Allow saplings to grow irregardless of light. Restores something which was possible much earlier (0.4.13 and before).
2
4%
4 - Allow everything to grow slower at low light levels. This would allow crops and saplings to grow underground, with torches, but they would just grow slower (a lot).
25
47%
5 - Saplings and crops grow at lower light (torch) levels. If torches are reduced in light level, this means the light level for the crops/saplings to grow is reduced accordingly. This is the same as (4), but plants grow the same speed as at max light levels, not slower.
3
6%
 
Total votes : 53

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by asanetargoss » Thu Jan 05, 2017 19:31

Ferk wrote:I'm surprised the 4th option got so much support.

It's both impractical and unrealistic. Plantlife will grow too slowly so people will end up having to use mese lamps anyway if they actually want to farm efficiently, and yet it will still grow in places where you might not want it to grow and where it would be very weird to see plantlife. Even if it takes 2 weeks of actual time for it to grow in the dark, it will still grow in high uptime servers so you will still find weird places where plantlife would make no sense otherwise.

I'd rather see special underground farmable flora for variability and to make underground areas more interesting. But if that's too hard to implement, at least having to place a special fictional source of light like option 1 suggests adds some interesting aspect to building underground forests, adds some cost for doing it and kind of makes some more sense.


+1

Also, Option 1 is easier to understand. (KISS method)
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Thu Jan 05, 2017 19:51

Ferk wrote:I'm surprised the 4th option got so much support.

It's both impractical and unrealistic. Plantlife will grow too slowly so people will end up having to use mese lamps anyway if they actually want to farm efficiently, and yet it will still grow in places where you might not want it to grow and where it would be very weird to see plantlife. Even if it takes 2 weeks of actual time for it to grow in the dark, it will still grow in high uptime servers so you will still find weird places where plantlife would make no sense otherwise.


Nice to know I'm not the only one who can see this.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by paramat » Thu Jan 05, 2017 23:57

This issue started due to those who liked the behaviour before a year ago where saplings had no light check and grew at normal speed at any light level. Although option 4 is popular in this poll (and the one on Github) it does not satisfy those people because saplings will grow much slower in torchlight.
In both polls option 1 is also popular.

If as i suggest we have a simple 'required light' setting for all plants this keeps option 1 voters happy plus those who like the old behaviour, it may also be popular to those who like option 4, it's also simpler.

Sorry for my previous frustration, i'm feeling calmer now and will of course take notice of the poll results.
I still feel my suggestion should have been included, and was refused inclusion for questionable reasons. So all i can do is ask those who like my suggestion to mention their support here in the comments, as some of you have already done.

Although MTGame is only loosely based on reality the requirements for plant growth are fairly realistic, you need fertile (or damp) soil, nearby water in some cases (papyrus), and light. Allowing plants to grow by torchlight is very unrealistic, plants require a special kind of light to grow and if they don't get it they don't grow at all. This has also been the intentional design of the game (apart from the missing light checks) for the last 4 years.

I ask that the MTGame devs realise these points and use their own good judgement to avoid option 4 as the default. The default should continue to be what MTGame has done for 4 years, option 1, then add a setting or parameters for alternative behaviour.

Option 4 is a compromise that doesn't really satisfy either viewpoints in the argument, it's only being seen as good because it's halfway between, it would be a big mistake to make it the default. Better to have options to switch between the popular current behaviour and the requested old behaviour, with current behaviour as default.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 17:44

As I see it, there are only one or two people who are suddenly unhappy about a change that was made a year ago. One thing that is really clear from the github poll is the nobody actually wants the old behaviour. I really can't understand the support for option 4, it seems a little ironic that those who are complaining of changed game mechanics are the ones trying to change them completely.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by sofar » Fri Jan 06, 2017 18:49

stu wrote:it seems a little ironic that those who are complaining of changed game mechanics are the ones trying to change them completely.


I think you're reading too much into it.

The whole discussion about what happened in the past is mostly irrelevant. The poll asks "what do you want" and people chose their favorite option. Ignoring the github poll, the poll results above show nothing about who voted what option or even who they are. It's entirely possible that people complain about the past but didn't even vote or voted something completely different.

In the end what matters is that we'll end up with a better and more consistent game mechanic. If you remove the complaining thread and just look at the poll outcome, it's pretty clear what people want. Now we just have to come up with a way to make as many people get what they want with as simple of a code as possible.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 19:10

sofar wrote:I think you're reading too much into it..


Whatever, it makes absolutely zero sense for certain plants to grow in complete darkness, no matter how long it takes. It is a kludge and a compromise which ultimately pleases no one.

There is also a very real chance of world breakage, say for example someone uses a sappling as a decoration, imagine their supprise when they return to find a tree poking through the roof ;-)
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by sofar » Fri Jan 06, 2017 19:50

stu wrote:
sofar wrote:I think you're reading too much into it..


There is also a very real chance of world breakage, say for example someone uses a sappling as a decoration, imagine their supprise when they return to find a tree poking through the roof ;-)


Every addition to the code will always remove something as well.

I'd love to see it when people realize that this is a consequence, they may come to like it as well. Of course, tree grow code should really just check for air nodes first before growing (or should it?).
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by TumeniNodes » Fri Jan 06, 2017 20:11

sofar wrote:
stu wrote:
sofar wrote:I think you're reading too much into it..


There is also a very real chance of world breakage, say for example someone uses a sappling as a decoration, imagine their supprise when they return to find a tree poking through the roof ;-)


Every addition to the code will always remove something as well.

I'd love to see it when people realize that this is a consequence, they may come to like it as well. Of course, tree grow code should really just check for air nodes first before growing (or should it?).


Bonzai trees would fix that problem :D No worries about it growing through your roof.... just snip, pinch, enjoy ; )
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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 22:35

sofar wrote:I'd love to see it when people realize that this is a consequence, they may come to like it as well. Of course, tree grow code should really just check for air nodes first before growing (or should it?).


No, plants should not grow in the dark nor by torch-light, that is not a sensible game mechanic. I understand that the voxel games genre has not been renowned for its realism but given the current interest in educational use, I suggest we stay within the bounds of common sense, at least.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by sofar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 04:36

stu wrote:
sofar wrote:I suggest we stay within the bounds of common sense, at least.


Again I think you're thinking too much into it.

If plants really can't grow without direct sunlight then there shouldn't be grass under trees, or jungle grass in the denser parts of minetest jungles. But yet, there is plenty of growth everywhere in minetest in shadier spots.

Many plants need a little less light. I'm not saying darkness. But light levels 12 and 13 aren't darkness. I don't think we should pull plant growth down to light level 7. Maybe 11 tops. Still bright enough for many shade loving plants. Maybe even vary needed light per plant.

You seem to see things very black/white. Or perhaps I should say dark/light? :)
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by TenPlus1 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 09:09

nope nope nope... Anything below light level 13 should not be considered unless someone is using a custom setting for they're own singleplayer or server game... Adding a minetest.conf setting for 'grow_light_level' and defaulting to 13 while having a global variable for mods to use is all the change that is really needed.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 18:41

TenPlus1 wrote:Adding a minetest.conf setting for 'grow_light_level' and defaulting to 13 while having a global variable for mods to use is all the change that is really needed.

Precisely, I think the game developers should focus on improving the game mechanics by adding more survival based content instead of trying to fix something that clearly isn't broken.

Giving plants their own individual light levels is an interesting idea but that is completely different to option 4.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by zing269 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 20:06

Giving plants their own individual light levels is an interesting idea but that is completely different to option 4.


The MTG farming mod already allows for min and max light levels per plant, they just all happen to be set to the same thing. Those settings can easily be overridden by a mod that just registers the plant again with different values. The grow_plant function could be redefined to allow plants to grow outside of the min max range at a slower rate.

Similarly for trees, the can_grow function can be redefined by a mod to allow saplings to grow at what ever light level you choose.

I don't think there's a need to make any changes to MTG.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 20:24

Another thing, it seems a bit strange that most of the comments in this topic are pro option 1, however, the votes do not seem to be reflecting that. I am beginning to suspect foul-play, perhaps one of the forum admins can take a closer look at who is actually voting.

inb4 sofar says I am reading too much into things :p
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by paramat » Sat Jan 07, 2017 20:31

Nah, option 4 is actually popular, with MTGame devs too, those who vote 1 are probably more vocal.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by stu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 20:44

paramat wrote:Nah, option 4 is actually popular, with MTGame devs too, those who vote 1 are probably more vocal.

Yeah, you are probably right but I would still love to know just how many of these 'votes' came from newly created accounts.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by sofar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 23:28

stu wrote:
paramat wrote:Nah, option 4 is actually popular, with MTGame devs too, those who vote 1 are probably more vocal.

Yeah, you are probably right but I would still love to know just how many of these 'votes' came from newly created accounts.


The github poll shows almost exactly the same results (if you look at smileys) and you can see everyone's vote there - there don't seem to be any newly created accounts there, so it's unlikely that this poll is being trolled.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by TumeniNodes » Sat Jan 07, 2017 23:47

Just adding my opinion here. Maybe subjects such as this should just be voted on between devs (unless there was a tie?).... sometimes dev teams are best off using the "do it now and ask forgiveness later" method.

If a large number of end users complain, then make the changes to appease them.. but only after the initial fact/action ; )
Just my penny's worth... carry on :P
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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by addi » Sun Jan 08, 2017 09:19

I voted for option 4, because not only underground farms are affected by this.
Just take a look at the screenshots.
Image
Image
Under the wings of the mill there is nothing growing, because of the shadow of the wings.
If there is a small shadow, e.g. because of a tree or a mill, a normal on-ground farm doesn't work.

If the light level would only affect underground farms I would say that at least Mese lights should be required.
The whole lightning/growing should be balanced better.
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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by Punk » Sun Jan 08, 2017 09:57

It makes more sense to use mods for these unrealistic options.
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by Ferk » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:40

sofar wrote:I don't think we should pull plant growth down to light level 7. Maybe 11 tops. Still bright enough for many shade loving plants.

So there's a minimum light level also in option 4. Basically option 4 then is not that different from option 1 in terms of what can grow, if it wasn't because you are moving the limit below torch light.

So, alternative compromise: do that, but then decrease light level of torches to 11 so they don't grow crops like before and tweak the visual brightness curve so even though they would decrease in light value the visual brightness is still high so torches won't be darker (which actually was already merged before in #4873).

That way you can have crops grow in the shadow under a tree or structure outdoors without breaking current underground growth mechanics.

Changing underground forests to grow that easily with torches is making the game easier. I though the line of development was to try and add some challenge, not remove it.

sofar wrote:Maybe even vary needed light per plant.

That would be a better solution, if only special plants/fungi can grown in lower light. It would give some much needed variability to the underground. Which also happens to be one of the development goals I think.
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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by addi » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:52

Ferk wrote:So, alternative compromise: do that, but then decrease light level of torches to 11 so they don't grow crops like before and tweak the visual brightness curve so even though they would decrease in light value the visual brightness is still high so torches won't be darker (which actually was already merged before in #4873).

That way you can have crops grow in the shadow under a tree or structure outdoors without breaking current underground growth mechanics.

+1
 

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Re: Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?

by Bodo » Sun Jan 08, 2017 19:52

Hello,

I've just registered myself to voice my opinion on this topic. I don't think that normal plants like trees, cotton or wheat should grow underground. Instead new crops should be introduced that allow sustainable underground farming. Let's just say these crops (mushrooms for example) have lower yield and grow slower, thus needing bigger farms for the same amount of food.
 

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