What is a grief?

[RealGoldenHart]

I moderate on the hometown server and get a reasonable amount of complaints over "griefing". A majority of these cases come from a player trusting another player too much, and allowing them in their protections. The second player then takes what he/she wants from the land and leaves. This is the first case I normally hear about. The second case is when a player builds a house, does not protect it, and somebody else runs through and takes their materials.

My question to the forums is: Am I crazy to think that the above two situations are not griefing? A few years ago, a grief was considered (from what I saw) water or lava placed on protected property from far above, or gravel or sand dropped on the same type of property.
Has the definition of a grief changed? Do minetest players have a new definition of griefing, or is it just kids who are upset they lost property.

Hopefully you can tell me I'm not crazy, but I welcome your comments.

[Linuxdirk]

To me a griefer is someone who intentionally annoys or harms others without breaking the game mechanics. For example the things you described.

[firefox]

technically it is griefing, but it's also the players fault for letting unknown people into their protections.
that's why we have protections after all :P

if you build together with someone, it usually is someone you know.
you know they are nice and you know their skills, otherwise how could you build with someone if you don't even know what he can do?
and if you decide to help a new player, you usually make a new shared home instead of granting them access to all your treasures.

not protecting something is the same.
unprotected builds are either abandoned or the builder was banned from the server, so it's free land to takeover.

dropping liquids or falling nodes from outside the protected area is "real" griefing and requires action.
the other cases are mostly the players fault.

=(^.^)=

[BBmine]

I agree with you GH, it's not griefing.

[Sokomine]

A majority of these cases come from a player trusting another player too much, and allowing them in their protections. The second player then takes what he/she wants from the land and leaves. This is the first case I normally hear about.

I'd describe that more as "stealing". After all the second player wanted the blocks and took them without permission - and not in order to improve the common project. Young players often make the mistake to want to be friends with everyone and share their areas far too soon. As both players involved are usually inexperienced, blocks stolen may be something as common as wood or cobble. Still, the intention here seems theft. Which IMHO is covered under the general "no griefing" rule.

The second case is when a player builds a house, does not protect it, and somebody else runs through and takes their materials.

That...depends. It is strictly speaking always griefing. Protection is just a tool for builders and server admins to have to worry a bit less about griefers. It's also helpful to see who built it - after all it might be worth to remember the name as that player might have built great things elsewhere, too. A finished structure of sufficient quality stands for itshelf and doesn't really need protection. Something that isn't recognizable as a sufficiently creative structure (i.e. a wall in the middle of nowhere, a pillar of blocks, abandoned simple cobble or wooden boxes, long-standing ruins) can be taken away. Half-finished structures can be finished by other players after a sufficient amount of time has passed (player not seen for over a year). It may also be necessary to do some slight adjustments if the sourroundings (in particular: the roads) are changed in the neighbourhood. This is done with the intention to keep and maintain someone else's creation in the way the original creator would have done would he have been there to do it. Protection is often shared for that reason.

So, to me, any modification (taking blocks, adding other blocks, water/lava/fire, ..; obviously not operating doors :-)) to a (sufficiently creative) structure built by someone else is by default always griefing. There are exceptions where such modifications are helpful and more than ok - i.e. both players talking about how to best solve a particular problem, which material to take etc. - or adjustments to changes to the environment, adjustments to changes in mods present, cleanup of long ago abandoned areas with ruins etc. Typical griefers tend to focus on destroying other people's creations. Sometimes they're foremost thieves and just don't know better. On Redcrabs server, cobble was stolen from roads...shiny things are also frequently stolen.

[maikerumine]

These are some examples of Grief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kTOLIY_PY

[Beerholder]

Just my two cents, but to be honest I think server admins and moderators should be very clear and unambiguous about the rules (whether they are always enforcable is another thing of course). So instead of "no griefing", try to come up with some clear rules with your fellow moderators and admins (choose whatever you feel applies to the server):

- Do not cheat or use hacked clients
- Do not pester other players
- Do not steal someone else's property
- Do not kill players at spawn
- Do not ruin or destroy someone else's property in any way (breaking the structure's blocks, flooding with liquids or any other kind of block) regardless of whether it has protection blocks or not
Etc. etc. etc.
- Do not argue with the moderators about the enforcement of these rules

At least hopefully it will avoid endless bickering on the server chat (and in the forums, see Cash's World) as to what is meant with griefing and what not (well maybe they will start bickering about actually reading the rules and troubles understanding them -_-).

But if you want to stick to just "no griefing", at least define amongst yourselves what you think griefing means on your server.

It's not so much about what the definition of griefing is or how it is being done on other servers. It's about what you as a team of moderators want and how you and your (majority) player base think you can make the server the best experience possible. Make clear the moderators are all on the same page and enforce the rules as consistently as possible.

And if all else fails, turn it into an anarchy server, cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war XD

[843jdc]

As for Cash's World, the bickering has calmed down as I knew it would. Takes time for the players to get tired of griefing and then sign a Cease-fire Agreement :)

Also, the little tykes are always stealing from each other.

[ynomrah]

I moderate on the hometown server and get a reasonable amount of complaints over "griefing". A majority of these cases come from a player trusting another player too much, and allowing them in their protections. The second player then takes what he/she wants from the land and leaves. This is the first case I normally hear about. The second case is when a player builds a house, does not protect it, and somebody else runs through and takes their materials.

My question to the forums is: Am I crazy to think that the above two situations are not griefing? A few years ago, a grief was considered (from what I saw) water or lava placed on protected property from far above, or gravel or sand dropped on the same type of property.
Has the definition of a grief changed? Do minetest players have a new definition of griefing, or is it just kids who are upset they lost property.
Lol I am guilty, but I agree with you.
Hopefully you can tell me I'm not crazy, but I welcome your comments.

[ABJ]

Is destroying a giant penis skyscraper considered griefing?

[azekill_DIABLO]

Is destroying a giant penis skyscraper considered griefing?

No, it's an act of mercy.

[redblade7]

The second case is when a player builds a house, does not protect it, and somebody else runs through and takes their materials.

On the servers I run, if the users were online building something and someone else comes along to make changes before they have a chance to protect it, that does count as griefing, but if the user had left and didn't protect the area properly, it would not.

There is also the difference between making changes to an unprotected area, which is allowed, and major destruction to an area (like digging endless pits or flooding large areas), which is griefing.

[BBmine]

I moderate on the hometown server and get a reasonable amount of complaints over "griefing". A majority of these cases come from a player trusting another player too much, and allowing them in their protections. The second player then takes what he/she wants from the land and leaves. This is the first case I normally hear about. The second case is when a player builds a house, does not protect it, and somebody else runs through and takes their materials.

My question to the forums is: Am I crazy to think that the above two situations are not griefing? A few years ago, a grief was considered (from what I saw) water or lava placed on protected property from far above, or gravel or sand dropped on the same type of property.
Has the definition of a grief changed? Do minetest players have a new definition of griefing, or is it just kids who are upset they lost property.

Hopefully you can tell me I'm not crazy, but I welcome your comments.

Lol I am guilty, but I agree with you.

FTFY :)

[Cpt_mcg]

Is destroying a giant penis skyscraper considered griefing?

No, it's an act of mercy.

Agreed.

[MineYoshi]

Is destroying a giant penis skyscraper considered griefing?

No, it's an act of mercy.

Agreed.

I still don't understand why male adolescents like to do things in the shape of a Penis, could somebody explain this to me? :^)

[azekill_DIABLO]

they are mentally disturbed and obsessed with sexuality.

[MineYoshi]

they are mentally disturbed and obsessed with sexuality.

Ahhh. Ok.

[Cpt_mcg]

they are mentally disturbed and obsessed with sexuality.

Ahhh. Ok.

Yup...

[XtremeHacker]

And probably 12 YO's with no life.
As someone said earlier, greifing should be defined for the mods & players, as the term is used quite loosly, and can mean different things.

[Cpt_mcg]

And probably 12 YO's with no life.
As someone said earlier, greifing should be defined for the mods & players, as the term is used quite loosly, and can mean different things.

D: Why are you referring to my kind? lol

[Byakuren]

I still don't understand why male adolescents like to do things in the shape of a Penis, could somebody explain this to me? :^)

Public expression of their sex drive that is rejected by society.

[ABJ]

Pubic expression of their sex drive that is rejected by society.

Am I reading this right?

[XtremeHacker]

And probably 12 YO's with no life.
As someone said earlier, greifing should be defined for the mods & players, as the term is used quite loosly, and can mean different things.

D: Why are you referring to my kind? lol

Note I said probably :P
Really though, I find it immature when people go building those, ahem "dumb" structures.
OK, can anyone slightly change the topic?

[azekill_DIABLO]

Pubic expression of their sex drive that is rejected by society.

Am I reading this right?

yes, me too. demn.

[azekill_DIABLO]

And probably 12 YO's with no life.
As someone said earlier, greifing should be defined for the mods & players, as the term is used quite loosly, and can mean different things.

D: Why are you referring to my kind? lol

Note I said probably :P
Really though, I find it immature when people go building those, ahem "dumb" structures.
OK, can anyone slightly change the topic?

nooo. not even. :)