What map height is really needed?

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burli
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What map height is really needed?

by burli » Thu Jun 01, 2017 05:32

Minetest has a height of 60km, Minecraft is just 256 blocks high. I know that some people like to digg down 30km, but is that really necessary? Has anybody build up something 30km high (something more than a pillar)?
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by pandaro » Thu Jun 01, 2017 05:57

everest is 8848 if i remember...
i will see mountains of 10000 mt in minetest
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by burli » Thu Jun 01, 2017 06:13

pandaro wrote:everest is 8848 if i remember...
i will see mountains of 10000 mt in minetest

The landscape in Minetest is scaled down. Realistic scales wouldn't be playable. A realistic scaled Mount Everest wouldn't fit on a Minetest map. For realistic scaled maps you need more than a 60x60x60km qube
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Sergey » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:19

The reason is 16bit signed integers for coordinates. It is simple.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by burli » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:56

I know the technical details. I want to know what height players really need/use
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Linuxdirk » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:47

burli wrote:I know the technical details. I want to know what height players really need/use

The highest Structure I created was ~300 nodes high starting 50-80 nodes above sea level.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by burli » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:22

Linuxdirk wrote:The highest Structure I created was ~300 nodes high starting 50-80 nodes above sea level.

Thanks, that's what I mean. What hight/depth do you really need? Do you really dig 30km or would be 4km enough?

My idea is to use the height of the 16 bit to stack multiple worlds and a world can be 256 nodes high, 512 nodes, 1024, 2048, 4096 and so on.

Instead of digging like an idiot you can have dozens of worlds to discover.

In Minecraft you only have 256 nodes and for most people it is enough, so I think 1024 or 2048 nodes would be enough for most worlds. Than you have enough ground and sky plus you can have 32 or 64 worlds.

I always think, 30km of air is a waste of space
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Linuxdirk » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:28

burli wrote:I always think, 30km of air is a waste of space

In the current state its absolutely a waste of space. When being at -1024 and below nothing ever changes. Its the same caves and ore distribution from there all the way down to the bottom. There are some mods adding larger caves and other stuff underground but vanilla Minetest is absolutely boring when outside -1024 and +400.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by texmex » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:38

I wholeheartedly agree with you burli, the space could obviously be put to better use. AiTechEye did some work on this recently.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Sergey » Thu Jun 01, 2017 13:07

It would be better to have 2 km high (max) and 60 km deep.

The underworld must be more interesting and change depending on how deep you dig. Some people already stated that deeper than 1 km (1024 nodes) it becomes boring because nothing new and interesting happens.

So higher than some height it is deadly boring because there is just NOTHING.
And deeper than 1 km it is boring because nothing new happens.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by hajo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 17:39

burli wrote:I know the technical details. I want to know what height players really need/use

On the ROBOTS-server, clouds are at 120,
the highest known mountain is about 1350 high,
and space starts above 1100.

Space has some effects, such as reduced gravity, 'spacey' skybox,
and basic_machines work more efficently there.
At 1500 is a level (with teleporter-access) for 'space-stations'.

Digging needs XP, new players can only dig down to -200.
I haven't seen a player yet with enough XP to dig below -550.
There is a teleporter that connects spawn with the public mine at -200.
Also, below -100 there is a chance that any dig can create a source of acid...

There are only 2-3 players that have a base more then 1000 away from spawn.

Also, /tp is disabled, nobody gets privilege for fast moving, no travelnet,
and basicMachine-movers are somewhat awkward to set up as teleporters.
Last edited by hajo on Thu Jun 01, 2017 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by ratmix » Thu Jun 01, 2017 18:13

it completely depends on what you want to do with your server. We have a sky base and subdivision at 1350 and plans for a sky island pvp arena at 5000. We have another pvp arena at -1100 which we plan to move down to -20000 to make it inaccessible without a teleporter. This is how the nether mod works too. You can essentially have multiple worlds within a world by developing different elevations. So I'd say 64000 is just right. That leaves you with only 262 trillion nodes to work with :)

And if you never go that deep the map is not generated so there is no additional burden on your system. But it's good to have the space in case your imagination kicks in.
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Re: What map height is really needed?

by burli » Thu Jun 01, 2017 18:36

ratmix wrote:it completely depends on what you want to do with your server. We have a sky base and subdivision at 1350 and plans for a sky island pvp arena at 5000. We have another pvp arena at -1100 which we plan to move down to -20000 to make it inaccessible without a teleporter. This is how the nether mod works too.


Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

If each world just needs e.g. a height of 2048, you can put all this in different worlds and travel between them with teleporters or similar
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by ratmix » Thu Jun 01, 2017 18:57

burli wrote:Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

If each world just needs e.g. a height of 2048, you can put all this in different worlds and travel between them with teleporters or similar

I want this too but apparently it is not currently possibe. There is a github issue opened about this. Will post the link later if I can find it.

Update: GitHub issue
Last edited by ratmix on Thu Jun 01, 2017 19:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Sergey » Thu Jun 01, 2017 19:20

burli wrote:Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

If each world just needs e.g. a height of 2048, you can put all this in different worlds and travel between them with teleporters or similar

What do you mean by "stacking" worlds?
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by firefox » Fri Jun 02, 2017 07:58

Sergey wrote:What do you mean by "stacking" worlds?

each world or let's say realm is a "flat" layer.
and the whole world or let's call it universe is a large box.
so we can put the realms above each each other like pancakes, and fill the whole universe from bottom to top.
and they can be accessible without teleporting by connecting the layers with "world pillars" or giant traversable trees.
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Re: What map height is really needed?

by texmex » Fri Jun 02, 2017 08:10

ratmix wrote:
burli wrote:Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

If each world just needs e.g. a height of 2048, you can put all this in different worlds and travel between them with teleporters or similar

I want this too but apparently it is not currently possibe. There is a github issue opened about this. Will post the link later if I can find it.

Update: GitHub issue


You're wrong, it's very possible. Take a look here. That issue is about server-to-server jumps. This topic is about one world with several layers in it. So while I'd like to see multi-server worlds becoming a reality, layers are possible right now.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by ratmix » Fri Jun 02, 2017 08:41

texmex wrote:You're wrong dummy (paraphrased)

Ok, maybe I confused my dream with his.

Still want this though: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17548
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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jun 02, 2017 09:55

burli wrote:Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

Each layer should have a bottom made of unbreakable material (like bedrock) and an area above where building is impossible far enough away from the layer above for not rendering it.

Image
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by texmex » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:07

Linuxdirk wrote:
burli wrote:Well, that's my point. You can stack all of this in one map, but than you can reach everything by digging or building a pillar.

Each layer should have a bottom made of unbreakable material (like bedrock) and an area above where building is impossible far enough away from the layer above for not rendering it.

Image

Also, if the bottom-most bedrock nodes in each layer is textured the same as the sky color (assuming default sky), the upper layer will seem invisible even if nerdpoling all the way up to the next layer.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by texmex » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:09

What are the limits of the biome API? Can we have custom multiple biomes for each layer for example?
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by TumeniNodes » Fri Jun 02, 2017 17:59

do you not need to consider space needed for mining, dungeons/caves, and if nether is to be used?

I agree with this idea of using all the available space efficiently.

and the only issue regarding having each layer far enough away to not render..., is it not an existing fps issue that any tunnels, caves, etc... nodes are render at all times (even though they cannot be seen)?
I think this has been mentioned in the past. So, what would happen with stacked layers?

How will clouds be handled? Or skybox for that matter?
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Re: What map height is really needed?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jun 02, 2017 20:03

TumeniNodes wrote:How will clouds be handled? Or skybox for that matter?

Good question. I imagine an API call to create cloud layers on arbitrary height values. Skybox might stay the same for all heights.
 

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Re: What map height is really needed?

by paramat » Sat Jun 03, 2017 20:05

> What are the limits of the biome API? Can we have custom multiple biomes for each layer for example?

You can, as biomes have y limits. You can register up to 256 biomes, which is probably only just enough for a few levels.

> How will clouds be handled? Or skybox for that matter?

We have a Clouds API now that works per-player, it can shift the cloud layer to a different height depending on the y co-ordinate of the player.
We have had a skybox API for years that can alter the sky per-player depending on y co-ordinate, but this does not do day-night transitions so is currently only useful for space and a few specialised uses.
 

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