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Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 14:40
by ABJ
If you really are gonna make the users make two downloads, at least do more to tell them that!

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 14:56
by Andrey01
Strange topic. Nobody will play the game if engine is indeveloped.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 15:12
by ABJ
What I meant was, keep the "Minetest" engine hidden (but continue developing it), and distribute it not under IT's name, but with a subgame and under that subgame's name.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 15:18
by BBmine
Nope.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 15:34
by firefox
Image

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 17:50
by MineYoshi
Let's make MineFork instead. Developers won't hear you ABJ, sadly.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 23:14
by sorcerykid
The engine is capable of a wide variety of subgames, so why only promote one?

That would be like Microsoft scrapping the marketing of Windows OS and instead selling Microsoft Office (with Windows OS included only as a footnote).

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 23:18
by BBmine
sorcerykid wrote:The engine is capable of a wide variety of subgames, so why only promote one?

That would be like Microsoft scrapping the marketing of Windows OS and instead selling Microsoft Office (with Windows OS included only as a footnote).

Why are you comparing this to Micro$oft?

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:11
by ABJ
My idea was not to promote ONE subgame, but to distribute EACH subgame + engine as a game of it's own. I find it ridiculous that users have to make more than one download to get the game of their choice, instead of this minetest_game engine demo crap.

BTW no insult to MTG devs, I was referring to it in the context of the user's expectations.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:28
by firefox
but then you have multiple versions of the same engine for every game :P

it would be better to include more games into what we have now.
once upon a time, there was a "vote for games to be bundled with minetest" thread. what happened to it?

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 15:13
by ABJ
Possibly deleted because users showing support for low-quality content/voting for content that conflicts with our vision for MT's future/trolling/shitposting.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 15:14
by MineYoshi
firefox wrote:once upon a time, there was a "vote for games to be bundled with minetest" thread. what happened to it?


I suppose that the devs didn't do anything at the end. There were many good suggestions but most of them didn't make it. By example the "Tutorial" subgame was suggested multiple times but at the end Wuzzy always said it wasn't ready as i remember.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 15:39
by ABJ
It's still there.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 15:46
by MineYoshi
ABJ wrote:It's still there.

The devs ain't gonna' do anything anyways.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 20:17
by Wuzzy
Well, this is stupid.
As soon the player understands that you can use Minetest to have multiple games at your disposal, the player certainly won't throw this knowledge away. It is way too convenient to have all those games available, it does not make sense to ignore it.
Minetest is relevant to the player because it is the application in which you select and start subgames and in which you connect to servers which can also host any possible subgame + mod combination. It is thus foolish to not explain or promote it at all and pretend it doesn't exist.

But it really boils down to subgames. I see 4 big problems at the moment:
1) We need at least one great subgame. One shining example of what Minetest can do. Current subgames are okay at best, many subgames are shit, buggy, outdated or just boring. There are a few really sweet subgames and the community had some great ideas in the past. But all subgames need polish. Minetest Game is too boring and lacks behind a lot, other subgames are lacking quality assurance.
2) We need a proper way to distribute subgames.
3) Subgames other than Minetest Game are lacking attention in general, esp. on homepage. Outsiders may not be aware of other subgames and often equate Minetest to Minetest Game. Which is very wrong! It must be clear even on a quick glance that Minetet Game is NOT the only subgame and not even the best we have to offer
4) Usability of Minetest in general needs a lot of work

“Extract the Zip file here” is not a proper way to distribute a subgame. The problem with Zip is that users are lazy. Pedantically, after each update, you must delete the entire subgame directory and extract it again. If you just “extract it over” the existing directory, you won't track file deletions and renames, which may cause strange (but rare) side-effects. Users are lazy and probably almost always do the “extract it over” part.

The community would greatly benefit from a mod and subgame manager.

We could also start to convince GNU/Linux distributions to include the best subgames as packages. Not even Arch Linux has any subgames other than Minetest Game in the official packages.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with promoting Minetest as such, as long you keep your audience (players? developers?) in mind.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 20:25
by dawgdoc
Wuzzy wrote:
We could also start to convince GNU/Linux distributions to include the best subgames as packages. Not even Arch Linux has any subgames other than Minetest Game in the official packages.



Probably a bit difficult as a whole, few of us would have connections with devs for any much less all of the major branches of Linux distros. But it is not beyond reason for one of us to create PPAs for some subgames for use with Ubuntu based distros. If other major types of Linux have similar sources outside of official repositories another could do the same for them. I have not worked with launchpad, a home for PPAs, but it sounds like something interesting to attempt.

Edit: I guess the first thing to learn would be how to have a package install in /home/<username>/.minetest/games/

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 06:50
by leo_rockway
dawgdoc wrote:
Wuzzy wrote:
We could also start to convince GNU/Linux distributions to include the best subgames as packages. Not even Arch Linux has any subgames other than Minetest Game in the official packages.



Probably a bit difficult as a whole, few of us would have connections with devs for any much less all of the major branches of Linux distros. But it is not beyond reason for one of us to create PPAs for some subgames for use with Ubuntu based distros. If other major types of Linux have similar sources outside of official repositories another could do the same for them. I have not worked with launchpad, a home for PPAs, but it sounds like something interesting to attempt.

Edit: I guess the first thing to learn would be how to have a package install in /home/<username>/.minetest/games/

Arch and derivatives have AUR, which is a user repo (non-official).
Also, you wouldn't install to ~/.minetest/games but to /usr/share/minetest/games

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 06:52
by Linuxdirk
Wuzzy wrote:1) We need at least one great subgame. One shining example of what Minetest can do. Current subgames are okay at best, many subgames are shit, buggy, outdated or just boring.

The problem with some ... a few ... a lot of ... most ... almost all subgames is that they are more or less "Minetest Game" with additions and an overall theme (medieval, technical, futuristic, other planet/dimension, etc.) but in the end they're, well, a collection of mods that extend or modify what's in the already shipped subgame.

Minetest is an engine for voxel based environments. That CAN be something like Infiniminer-inspired gameplay like "Minetest Game", but even with the rather limited modding API there also could be racing games (I know, I mention that a lot, but have a look at the unfortunately discontinued "UFO Race" subgame), puzzle games, maze games, jump-and-run games, combat (FFA, CTF, Domination, etc.) games, agility games, etc.

Wuzzy wrote:It must be clear even on a quick glance that Minetet Game is NOT the only subgame and not even the best we have to offer

We should make as clear as possible that Minetest is an engine (preferably by renaming it to something with "Engine" in name, like "Minetest Engine" as opposed to "Minetest Game").

Wuzzy wrote:4) Usability of Minetest in general needs a lot of work

Polish, polish, polish, and polish, don't forget to polish! And did I mention to polish it?

Textures have to be consistent in style and palette, there have to be guidelines for mod authors on how textures should be designed (yes, that may feel limiting, but in the end it definitely will end up in a better overall look and feel for everyone - and if you don't like the texture guidelines and palette, ignore it but be aware that you mod will stick out in a bad way).

Mods should not and under absolutely no circumstances be able to crash the game. inventory management (within the user's inventory and from or to any other type of inventory) should not lag at all, formspecs should be completely stylable by texture packs, there should be sound packs, too (maybe rename "texture packs" to "resource packs" or "media packs" and allow to add custom sounds there).

Make it mandatory for mods using settingtypes.txt (instead of "change value foobar on line N to value X to achieve this-or-that") if the authors want to get the mod added to the repository mentioned below.

And. So. On. Just polish it as most as possible. Yes, this will take some work, and yes, devs usually don't care about the player's point of view. But Minetest should not waste away as a piece of software from and for nerds.

Wuzzy wrote:“Extract the Zip file here” is not a proper way to distribute a subgame. [...] The community would greatly benefit from a mod and subgame manager.

There should be something like a central repository where subgame authors (and mod authors) can add their subgame (or mod) to. This has to be something that can be properly accessed within the client and that actually works as the user expects it.

I know there are some sites providing an extended search interface to the forums, but no, that is not a proper solution. Authors should be able to upload a simple file to a location that can be searched within the web browser and within the client (a simple JSON file and a screenshot PNG would be enough) and the client allows to install it with one single click and automatically checks for updates on a regular basis.

Wuzzy wrote:We could also start to convince GNU/Linux distributions to include the best subgames as packages.

Or we could try to convince the devs to add a proper "store" to install subgames, mods, textures, etc. from within the client.

Re: Stop distributing "Minetest"!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:05
by ABJ
Wuzzy's right.

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 18:01
by SonosFuer
I think we should look back to the custom Technic mod packs from Minecraft. Basically a mod pack had a url to a privately hosted zip file (this could be hosted on Dropbox for free) and by copying the link to that zip file into the client you could install the mod pack, it was really simple and easy. The same concept could be applied here, sub game developers put together a formatted zip file and host it somewhere (private server, dropbox, etc) then submit a link to that file directory to the forums. From there all you need to do is copy the url to the client and run it from there. The client will take care of the rest downloading, unzipping and setting up the Sub game.

I think this would work best if the game engine was separated from the launcher. The launcher could also manage engine versions, ex: if the modpack is still on 0.4.16 after 0.5.0 is released the launcher will handle compatibility issues (the sub game has a config file in it that defines what version of Minetest it runs on.

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 13:40
by ABJ
Because forum don't like .exe.

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 22:56
by dawgdoc
ABJ wrote:Because forum don't like .exe.

A format of little use to those not running Windows; i.e. those with Linux, iOS, Mac, or Android.

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 00:19
by MineYoshi
dawgdoc wrote:
ABJ wrote:Because forum don't like .exe.

A format of little use to those not running Windows; i.e. those with Linux, iOS, Mac, or Android.

Make a python script or some sorcery like that then.

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 05:53
by Xudo
.zip is not good enough?

Re: Stop not promoting the subgames enough!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 08:06
by Linuxdirk
Archives are perfectly fine. But directories should be supporter, too. There are a lot of people who develop stuff and/or use Git for updates. This would be unnecessary complicated if only archives are supported.