[SOLVED] Minetest is a Framework

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Wuzzy
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Wuzzy » Post

It is true that Minetest is not a game.
But it is untrue that Minetest is not a game engine. The word “framework” is not wrong either, just unspecific.
Wikipedia wrote:A game engine is a software framework designed for the creation and development of video games.
But I agree, the description on the homepage is very bad.
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by DS-minetest » Post

minetest.net wrote:A free, open source voxel game engine and game. Fully extendable. You are in control.
Wikipedia wrote:A game engine is a software framework designed for the creation and development of video games.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine)
And since minetest is an organization on github which also includes MTG, it's also a game (subgame).
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by rubenwardy » Post

game engine is correct, as it's software designed for the creation of video games. Albeit specialised ones.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Ruggero wrote:Please reply
This whole discussion is completely unproductive.

The minetest.net website is the main website for people to get the game. 99% of people visiting it are players and prospective players who want to play a game. They couldn't give a furry behind whether we call it a framework or a game engine. All they want to do is play and dig blocks and build a house.

So we darn ass well better put the word "game" right at the start.

Proceed with your pedantic escapades! Live long and gain perspective!

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sorcerykid » Post

Last I was informed, Minetest IS "just a game" -- and not worth making a big deal about either:

viewtopic.php?p=285179#p285179
Ruggero wrote: Survival in just test is not that difficult :/
Plus, it looks like that you REALLY care about just test and minetest (which there's no bad but I mean, it's just a game).
Apparently something changed.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Wuzzy » Post

@sofar: That wouldn't be an issue if Minetest Game wouldn't suck so much. Minetest Game expects from its users to add 1000s of mods first. Not ideal for the subgame which newbies see first.

The problem is not really the wording but the homepage in general. I think the homepage really does a poor job in presenting Minetest and what it is all about. I think it does Minetest a great disservice to reduce Minetest only to Minetest Game, what you seem to do.

Shit like this is why subgames other than Minetest Game are still very underappreciated and many people falsely believe that Minetest Game = Minetest. The homepage does not really do a good job in presenting other subgames. The only screenshots presented are from Minetest Game.
I think the idea of subgames (+ screenshots) should be presented presented right on the homepage, with Minetest Game just being one subgame among others. This wiki page may be used for inspiration: http://wiki.minetest.net/Minetest

But finally, I agree, the wording “game engine” vs “framework” doesn't really matter, both are equally correct. I think “game engine” is more accurate but I will not start a holy war if people start using the word “framework”.
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

Wuzzy wrote:But finally, I agree, the wording “game engine” vs “framework” doesn't really matter, both are equally correct. I think “game engine” is more accurate but I will not start a holy war if people start using the word “framework”.
"Framework" is wrong anyways because you don't build with it, but for it.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Wuzzy wrote:@sofar: That wouldn't be an issue if Minetest Game wouldn't suck so much. Minetest Game expects from its users to add 1000s of mods first. Not ideal for the subgame which newbies see first.

The problem is not really the wording but the homepage in general. I think the homepage really does a poor job in presenting Minetest and what it is all about. I think it does Minetest a great disservice to reduce Minetest only to Minetest Game, what you seem to do.
Don't put words into my mouth, please.

You implies that I disregard all the great games, subgames, modpacks and other fun ways to enjoy minetest.

That's of course entirely the opposite of how I feel.

I also never said anything about `minetest_game` in my reply. If you've read some of my other posts on the forum, you know that I hate it and want to replace it with something completely different. When I referred to "a game" in my reply, I was absolutely not referring to `minetest_game` alone. It doesn't make sense either, since not a single populated server runs vanilla minetest_game anyway, so in the end what is in `minetest_game` is almost entirely irrelevant to mulitplayer players.

You and I share goals to a very large extent. While I have been attempting to solve the problem from another angle, I wish you'd try and stay technical more in these discussions, since making it into a "she said" discussion is just a waste of both our times.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sorcerykid » Post

Ruggero wrote:
Are you even serious? Taking a post of mine out of the contest just to put the tiniest miswriting on my face? Come on
The question is whether you are serious, I mean come on, who goes into a discussion topic about a Minetest server and criticizes people that enjoy the server? That's petty.
Also that "just a game" was related to the fact that minetest is nothing in real life, but just a program on a pc, so not worthy of too much "devotion".
Given that critera nobody should even be playing Minetest. Numerous people login every day to my server for hours. I see the same on HOMETOWN and just test and Xanadu and Cash's World. So are you going to question them for being too devoted to "just a game"?

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

Ruggero wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:"Framework" is wrong anyways because you don't build with it, but for it.
That's exactly what minetest does, doesn't it?
If you'd take Minetest and implement it into your own projects and use the implemented version then it would be a framework. But since you don't do that (its more like the other way round: you create something people integrate into Minetest) it is not.

But we totally should not waste our time over a single technical term. There is much more to do then to decide if we call Minetest a framework or an engine.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sorcerykid » Post

I agree completely with Linuxdirk, I don't see this is a technical distinction that warrants changing the description. And for the many reasons that have been cited, it seems like a non-issue particularly for most end-users that are not developers.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

Ruggero wrote:(because when someone who's not a programmer like me thinks of a game engine as a software used to build a game and not required for the game to work, unlike minetest).
This is just because the engine usually is bundled with the game instead of distributed separately.

Have a look at this list of notable games. They all use the same engine in various versions. Each of the games distributes their own version of the engine but you can't simply download the engine (well, technically you could, but you need to register) and download a game for it, and start the launcher and load the game.

With Minetest you can. Same as above:

Have a look at this list of forum threads for subgames. They all use the Minetest engine in various versions. None of the subgames distributes their own version of the engine but you simply download the engine and download a game of it and start the launcher and load the game.

Just because the engine is distributed separately from the game Minetest is not less an engine than the Unreal Engine used as example.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sorcerykid » Post

Add to the fact the Minetest "engine" has a front-end interface that enables users to connect to servers and play remote games without ever installing a subgame locally. Essentially it's a distributed multiplayer gaming platform (a modern variant of a MUD), in that respect with an engine under the hood.

I think it would be more accurate to say Minetest includes a framework, rather than is a framework.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by angelo1123_ » Post

sofar wrote:
Ruggero wrote:Please reply
This whole discussion is completely unproductive.

The minetest.net website is the main website for people to get the game. 99% of people visiting it are players and prospective players who want to play a game. They couldn't give a furry behind whether we call it a framework or a game engine. All they want to do is play and dig blocks and build a house.

So we darn ass well better put the word "game" right at the start.

Proceed with your pedantic escapades! Live long and gain perspective!
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by angelo1123_ » Post

Lmao yea
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Ruggero wrote:ha, ha, ha. Funny as licking a grater.
You have an admirable sense of humor. I'm just very afraid of those that would admire it.

In all honesty, what I tried to express earlier is somewhat being forgotten in the discussion.

People, and more precisely, players, that want to enjoy the "thing" that is made by the project, need to download a binary and start it. If they can't download "the thing" then the whole project is meaningless, since the only reason to do this whole project is "so that players can play it".

By definition, "the thing" they download is "a game". You can argue high and low whether in an academic setting you would call it a neotechnical post-software graphics self indulgence pleasuring cooperative social protocol, or a bowl of petunias, but what you call it is irrelevant outside this academic setting.

What is relevant is that humans still think that LCD watches are a neat idea. What also is relevant is that people downloading "the thing" is that they understand that it allows them to "play the thing" and the best word describing "the thing that allows you to play the thing", is, in an inexplicably weird and contorted way, that best word is "game".

So, you see, you are entitled entirely to call it what you want, and this does not conflict with the fact that the best thing for "us" to call it on the website is "a game".

Please, continue to enjoy your bowl of petunias!

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by angelo1123_ » Post

And from that moment up Angelo knew Ruggero fucked up.
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by angelo1123_ » Post

Sofar is a developer please show some respect
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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

sofar wrote:By definition, "the thing" they download is "a game".
Actually no. But we’re already beyond this point. The question is what to call the engine/framework part of the combination of “Minetest” and “Minetest Game”.

But you know that. It already was (and currently is) discussed in the forums, I’m pretty sure there were discussions on GitHub about that, and probably on IRC too.

The real question here is: What to call the other part of the combination. Is it really a game? It lacks almost anything a game should have. It is at best a minimal “reference implementation” of what could be a game for the Minetest engine/framework. The website (you mentioned it) says “A free, open source voxel game engine and game.” So it is an engine at first and a game at second (even if the “game” part lacks anything a game should have).


So instead of repeating THE false (or at least debatable) statement about minetest over and over again and insulting people you should try to be more professional when using your mod/staff/admin account.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by rubenwardy » Post

I wrote the jumbotron description for Minetest.net. ie: "A free, open source voxel game engine and game.". The reason it's that way around is that the emphasis at least at the time was on Minetest being an engine.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Ruggero wrote:I'm not fucked up, I'm pissed off
This was entirely clear from the start :)

You'll find that I hold no grudges. Yes, I know it's infuriating when people tell you to "lighten up", and sometimes I have a hard time with it myself, well, maybe not as much as I used to, but I don't think much of it.

Honestly, the best advice I can give is to put a sticky note on your monitor that says "Don't take it personal". Everyone misinterprets everything that is written on the internet anyway, someone is undoubtedly going to misrepresent your words in one way or another, but what actually matters in the end is that things get better and problems get solved, and we all benefit, even if it means someone throws a fit or makes a stink about something they care about.

You've pointed out that indeed the website needs help, and you're totally right. The best thing to do would be to help fix it, but we (everyone who helps out with the project) do appreciate people telling us clearly where the problems are. Heck, you've taken more time to point out the problem than most people, who would just ignore the issue or even worse, stop playing minetest.

By far the best way to direct your energy is to learn how to code and contribute. Forums are for people who like to write lengthy and useless epitaphs to show off their English language skills, and for people who confuse your and you're. Don't be like those people ;).

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Linuxdirk wrote: So instead of repeating THE false (or at least debatable) statement about minetest over and over again and insulting people you should try to be more professional when using your mod/staff/admin account.
The minetest group is more than welcome to remove the special status from my forum account if they so desire, I have no desire to have it, just like I don't have an IRC project cloak or anything. I also don't use any special rights in conversations (unless it's a discussion topic I own and state topic rules explicitly) that I merely participate in. The only technical reason I have it is so I can update things like links to minetest-mods projects that have moved into minetest-mods that were abandoned by mod writers, and this is purely a service to users to help them find and download mods.

People are more than welcome to review the stuff that I have done for minetest for face value. I am not a prolific programmer but I try to put in time to actually make change over longer periods of time, after all, this forum thread won't be read in a years' time, but the game (you can't play an engine or framework) will still be played.

But, really, the idea that I'm out to insult people tells something more about you than me i think. Using humor to defuse a situation and relativism are healthy ways to show people that this isn't so important to get angry about, and it's much more fun and productive to have a laugh and think of productive ways to solve a problem.

So, go ahead and call me a poopy head and go and try to fix the website text. The github link is here:

https://github.com/minetest/minetest.gi ... x.html#L22

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

sofar wrote:By far the best way to direct your energy is to learn how to code and contribute. Forums are for people who like to write lengthy and useless epitaphs to show off their English language skills, and for people who confuse your and you're. Don't be like those people ;).
So you meaan instead of freely (at least mostly free) discuss on the forums people should go on GitHub where some of the core devs team up against new, complicated, or changing features?

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by sofar » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:So you meaan instead of freely (at least mostly free) discuss on the forums people should go on GitHub where some of the core devs team up against new, complicated, or changing features?
If you feel that core devs are "teaming up" against people, that is unacceptable.

If you feel that core devs are "prematurely dismissive" of good ideas, by all means take the time to go deeper into the reasoning and find out whether there is some personal bias and the dismissal is unfair. If you do think it is unfair, ping me and I will intervene if you wish, and, if you want me to look into past discussions where you think that good ideas were dismissed for unreasonable grounds, absolutely ask me and I will look into it.

In the end, what actually matters is that the project stays alive and improves over time. While it may go slow, there are plenty of things that will get fixed "in time" because more and more people complain about it and we finally find someone to do something about it.

What is productive in the end is the change that goes into github. Sometimes you need get beyond the unsubstantiveness of the forum and write the code to get hot issues moved. It's unsurprising that poor code can move mountains but golden ideas never produce results. So yes, the best way to contribute is to make a change, not just talk about it.

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Re: Minetest is a Framework

by Linuxdirk » Post

sofar wrote:[…] dismissed for unreasonable grounds […]
The “three approvals” rule. Devs only agree/disagree on something and that’s it (usually unanimous: three devs react, all deny). Issue closed, “won’t add”, bam. Discussion? Reasonable disagreement? Nada, just :-1: and that’s it.

Or the ever-repeating “that is complicated to add” as only reason for denial. Yes, that might be complicated, but why not see it as challenge and start developing something? (in the end developing is what developers do.)

Just read here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/is ... 0add%22%20

Just reading through it by myself.

Here. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4822 why not add that? Why do we have to do nasty stuff with the version string provided to actually get the version number?

Or here. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5224 The request sounds reasonable./ paramat disagrees with it. Sorry pal, not going to happen.

Or this. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4394 Gently pushing people into using more secure passwords is something that could be implemented uber easy. But no. People are stupid, so fuck it.

And this is only three things and only from closed “Won’t add”. and read through within 5 minutes
Last edited by Linuxdirk on Fri Aug 04, 2017 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

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