[POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

Punishment for publicly admitted cheating(NOT hacking) ?

Poll ended at Sun Jun 17, 2018 09:45

Permaban
4
67%
1-2 Months
0
No votes
1-2 Weeks
2
33%
1-2 Days
0
No votes
None
0
No votes
Not sure
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 6

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[POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sat Jun 02, 2018 09:40

Many servers contain the common rule(or varieties of it) : Hacking/cheating is strictly forbidden.
However, this throws up one question : What exactly is hacking/cheating ?
Probably there's already such a topic, then I'd ask the moderators kindly to please merge it with this one.
So, whats your opinion ? What is hacking/cheating ? What are appropriate punishments ?

[POLL]Are auto-clicking applications cheats ?

Yes - 30 - 88%
No - 2 - 6 %
Not sure - 2 - 6 %
Total votes : 34

Apparently YES is the communities answer.
Let's start a new one.
Last edited by LMD on Thu Jun 07, 2018 16:40, edited 7 times in total.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sat Jun 02, 2018 09:42

I'll go first : It is hacking/cheating when you manage to run custom code/commands that modify the server game mechanics, for example, granting you privileges such as fly while not permitted.
It also is hacking/cheating when you modify the MT client such that you have minor advantages, for instance disabled redscreen.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 13:28

Running client scripts that give you an unfair advantage is definitely cheating, in my experience its the ppl that are bad at that game who cheat to make it easier, this is extremely unfair as they have an advantage over players like myself who have practiced for years to get this good.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sat Jun 02, 2018 13:47

They most certainly are, end of discussion!

LMD wrote:It is hacking/cheating when you manage to run custom code/commands that modify the server game mechanics, for example, granting you privileges such as fly while not permitted.
It also is hacking/cheating when you modify the MT client such that you have minor advantages, for instance disabled redscreen.


Err... why exactly did you start this topic, tho? You're literally calling yourself a hacker/cheater (for auto-eating apples) in your own post.
Last edited by ANAND on Sat Jun 02, 2018 17:11, edited 3 times in total.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 13:49

ANAND wrote:They most certainly are, end of discussion (I hope)

I dont think the discussion should end here just yet, i think us players/mods/admins need to make it clear we wont tolerate this, except on specifically designated "hacking servers" (servers where your aloud to hack).
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sat Jun 02, 2018 13:54

Stix wrote:I dont think the discussion should end here just yet, i think us players/mods/admins need to make it clear we wont tolerate this, except on specifically designated "hacking servers" (servers where your aloud to hack).


Yes we must, since he's willing to lend us a ear after all he's done... :P
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 13:57

ANAND wrote:
Stix wrote:I dont think the discussion should end here just yet, i think us players/mods/admins need to make it clear we wont tolerate this, except on specifically designated "hacking servers" (servers where your aloud to hack).


Yes we must, since he's willing to lend us a ear after all he's done... :P

Actually he didnt cheat at all, it was his brother KGM, and he also took it way better than KGM, who threw a fit, the reason LMD is banned is because same ip, same reason my sister cant log-on after ive been temp-banned for "causing drama" (big exscuse to get rid of someone who disagrees but whatever).
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sat Jun 02, 2018 14:17

Stix wrote:Actually he didnt cheat at all, it was his brother KGM, and he also took it way better than KGM, who threw a fit.


The sheer act of siding with his brother, supporting him in spite of knowing that hacking is forbidden is a crime by itself, just so you know.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 14:23

ANAND wrote:
Stix wrote:Actually he didnt cheat at all, it was his brother KGM, and he also took it way better than KGM, who threw a fit.


The sheer act of siding with his brother, supporting him in spite of knowing that hacking is forbidden is a crime by itself, just so you know.

Not a crime, just immature, but i can understand his standpoint somewhat, i know some people who were brought up so its second nature to side with there sibling, even if there wrong, so partly the parents fault. but this is getting offtopic, we should go back to the original discussion before this topic is locked.

*EDIT it might be best if you also gave LMD your reasons why you think its cheating?, instead of just saying it is?

BTW: what was KGM's ingame-name? (curious if ive seen them before).
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sat Jun 02, 2018 15:24

ANAND wrote:
Stix wrote:Actually he didnt cheat at all, it was his brother KGM, and he also took it way better than KGM, who threw a fit.


The sheer act of siding with his brother, supporting him in spite of knowing that hacking is forbidden is a crime by itself, just so you know.


So you are a lawyer and capable of deciding whether something is a crime or not ?
No, you aren't. Also, I DID NOT CHEAT. And I believe moderators should not make accusations for no reason.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 15:26

LMD wrote:
ANAND wrote:
Stix wrote:Actually he didnt cheat at all, it was his brother KGM, and he also took it way better than KGM, who threw a fit.


The sheer act of siding with his brother, supporting him in spite of knowing that hacking is forbidden is a crime by itself, just so you know.


So you are a lawyer and capable of deciding whether something is a crime or not ?
No, you aren't. Also, I DID NOT CHEAT. And I believe moderators should not make accusations for no reason.

No he meant like a server crime, not an actual crime, also whether its a good reason or not from my experience moderators always have a reason behind their accusations, i certainly do.

*EDIT: you asked for feedback, so you have to take it, whether you disagree with it or not imo.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sat Jun 02, 2018 17:29

I needn't be a lawyer to point out that the use hacked clients is ban-worthy on almost every server out there. As a moderator however, I have to take disciplinary action, which in this case, is a permanent ban. I do agree with you on this - bans are crap, and can be circumvented by simply rebooting one's router.

What are you trying to prove by evading bans, anyway? Yes, bans are not fool-proof at the moment, but they still are the most powerful tool in our arsenal. And since you call IP ban a "joke", why don't you put your excellent coding skills into use, and contribute to this cause? I'm sure you'd come up with a better implementation for bans, since you've already developed quite a few nice tools and mods. :)
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sat Jun 02, 2018 18:09

Okay ANAND, my suggestion : WHITELIST ONLY. When you want to register a new account, you have to spend ~1 hour or so into making some easy parcours etc... Then this account is able to play. If he gets banned, he can of course reboot his rooter - but now has to make all the registration stuff again !
Plus, other players can guarantee for a player - if they do so, he neednt do the registration stuff. But if the player now gets banned, all the guys who guaranteed for him are also banned.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by paramat » Sat Jun 02, 2018 18:15

> What exactly is hacking/cheating ?

It's the server admin or moderators that decide, what KGM did could obviously be possibly interpreted as cheating so they could have asked first if it would be allowed.
Personally i would have temp-banned KGM from the forum when they first threatened to publish a cheat and encouraged disruption of a server. I hope they now have a temp-ban.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sat Jun 02, 2018 18:53

paramat wrote:> What exactly is hacking/cheating ?

It's the server admin or moderators that decide, what KGM did could obviously be possibly interpreted as cheating so they could have asked first if it would be allowed.
Personally i would have temp-banned KGM from the forum when they first threatened to publish a cheat and encouraged disruption of a server. I hope they now have a temp-ban.

I just want to say i agree with this 100%.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sat Jun 02, 2018 19:29

He did not publish a cheat, but multi-purpose tuto.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by IceAgeComing » Sat Jun 02, 2018 20:01

LMD wrote:He did not publish a cheat, but multi-purpose tuto.

Tutorial of how to cheat? Oh that makes it perfectly ok! *insert eye roll here*
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by TumeniNodes » Sat Jun 02, 2018 20:07

The moment you take some code, (a csm for example) and you modify that code to work with other code, to get it to work in a manner it was not originally coded/created to, and in doing so, it is giving you an unfair or dishonest advantage on a server, you are violating not just rules.., but trust

Trust is the most important part in this whole event.
This community is/was built upon trust, flourishes on trust, depends on trust...

So two words for you to take into consideration...., the two you violated in your action...
Trust and Honesty

Everything related to this entire project..., the code, the sharing, the labor, the community..., it all works on trust and honesty.

Every server owner/admin, puts their trust in players to just come, follow the rules, have fun, and not to be an annoyance. They offer a place for players to come, free of charge, with free software, etc.. They don't "have to" do any of this, but they do because they enjoy being able to offer it.
So, when a player comes along, and behaves this way..., it means they are ungrateful, disrespectful, and dishonest.

Every end user/player, puts their trust in developers, content creators, server owners/admins that they are not sharing malicious code, etc...
You were being dishonest, which is a violation of trust. (this is meant for kgm)

This is something you may want to take some time to think about..., because those two credentials are important to this project/community..., and even more so IRL.

Take this situation as a lesson, learn from it, understand it, and move on. You would become a better community member as the outcome.

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Wuzzy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 21:29

LMD wrote:What exactly is hacking/cheating ?

In the context of video games, cheating is when you break the rules of the game to give yourself an unfair advantage.

In the context of video games, hacking (or “cracking”) is when you use external software, alter the code of the game software or attack or manipulate the game server in order to cheat. If you use a modified client to play online, this counts as hacking as well.

-------

It is important to understand that in video games, the rules of the game are 99% or 100% embedded and enforced in the game's code itself, and is rarely written down in lengthy text. For instance, “all players walk with 4.5 m/s” or “the gravity is 9.81 m/s²” or “when you die, you respawn after 5 seconds” or “you have 32 slots of inventory space”. These are implicit rules.
Therefore, when you use 3rd party tools or modify the game software for your advantage, you are directly breaking these embedded rules of the game and are therefore cheating.
If you modify the client, no matter how little, it must be considered as “hacked” because you are using it in a way the author might not have intended. This might give an advantage, no matter how small it might be.

What is NOT cheating:
  • Doing something unexpected
  • Playing within the rules and limitations to pwn your opponent in a “clever” but unusual way
  • Using external software for harmless non-game related tasks (e.g. taking screenshot)
  • Behaving in a way the admin doesn't like, but is neither hacking nor against the rules
  • Winning
  • Griefing (unless it's against the rules)

paramat wrote:> What exactly is hacking/cheating ?

It's the server admin or moderators that decide, (…)

No, this is wrong.

What is cheating is defined by the rules of the game, not by any random person on a case-by-case basis. The rules of the game might introduce a referee, however, but this person might not be the same as the server admin or moderator.

Also, server policy (if there is any) usually covers non-game related aspects.

LMD wrote:Are auto-clicking applications cheats ?

Yes.

This constitutes hacking. One is altering the game controls in order to gain an advantage. Auto-clicking is an advantage because you could do stuff like eating lightning-fast.

LMD wrote:What are appropriate punishments ?

The only appropriate reaction is exclusion from the game. This is usually a kick or ban, but also forcing a player into spectator mode has the same effect. In Minetest, another option is revoking gameplay-related privileges, like interact.

This is because a game depends on all players to follow the rules of the game. Cheaters deliberately destroy the game for everyone else.
If this exclusion should be forever or time-limited is a difficult question.

However, it should still be fair.
First, one must be certain that an accused player is actually cheating. You need some form of evidence. Never exclude someone from the game only because of wild soeculations.

Second, if it was not obvious if <questionable behaviour XYZ> is a cheat, the accused player should be excused for this particular case. It was the fault of the game for not be clear about <questionable behaviour XYZ>, after all.
Then the game software should be rewritten so that <questionable behaviour XYZ> is simply no longer possible without hacking. This is the preferred method because the rules of the game are usually embedded in the game's code. If rewriting the game software is not an option, then write down that <questionable behaviour XYZ> is against the rules of the game and therefore a cheat.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sun Jun 03, 2018 02:15

Wuzzy wrote:However, it should still be fair.
First, one must be certain that an accused player is actually cheating. You need some form of evidence. Never exclude someone from the game only because of wild soeculations.


The player in question himself had confessed to using external Java / python programs to auto-eat apples, and until his apples were exhausted, no one could kill him anyway. Not to mention, that he ran out of apples quite fast... 8)

Otherwise, I wholly agree with paramat, TumeniNodes and Wuzzy.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by GreenDimond » Sun Jun 03, 2018 03:23

TumeniNodes wrote:The moment you take some code, (a csm for example)

*Glances nervously at coloured_chat, calculator, and chatbell CSM.*

Let us be clear, this is not to say client-side mods are a bad thing (though many seem to be adamantly against them no matter what..), only when they are used in an unfair way.

LMD wrote:He did not only use Java, but also Python ; Java doesnt feature real-time process output processing. Python processes MT output generated by CSM, and then invokes Java to simulate mouse+keypress events using java.awt.Robot class. (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=320215#p320215)


Like that! :D

KGM wrote:(that my csm helps me that much is your games fault! If your game was good there would be no way to split a task solvable by program off the task of playing your game!) (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=320216#p320216)


"If your game was good there would be no way to [make it easier for myself]."

I played a game of Hide-and-Seek on a server the other day, you know what would have made it easier? A good ol' fashion modified client that lets me circumvent the minimap blockade, and maybe throw in fly and noclip while I'm at it! That game is no good because I can make it easier!

I'm not sure if you realize it, but this is exactly what you sound like. (also note, I was using extremely heavy sarcasm right there)

Let us also be clear, while you certainly did not use a modified client (hey by the way, "hacked" doesn't really apply here... it's an open source), using external methods coupled with the client counts just the same.

Usually when I write posts like this I end up not posting them as I feel they may go better unsaid or could be a waste of time, but this seems like a really dumb topic so I wanted to throw my opinion into the mix :D
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Wuzzy » Sun Jun 03, 2018 08:50

The player in question himself had confessed to using external Java / python programs to auto-eat apples, and until his apples were exhausted, no one could kill him anyway. Not to mention, that he ran out of apples quite fast... 8)

Just to be clear, this is also a cheat/hack.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Linuxdirk » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:47

GreenDimond wrote:Let us be clear, this is not to say client-side mods are a bad thing

They are actually. At least in the current state CSM is a horrible disaster for server owners since it adds one-click cheats that are technically not even cheating.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:39

Linuxdirk wrote:They are actually. At least in the current state CSM is a horrible disaster for server owners since it adds one-click cheats that are technically not even cheating.


Totally agreed.

There are quite a few handy CSMs out there, but the CSM API itself can still be used for malicious purposes combined with external scripts, like this.

(Edited out the extra exaggeration and added clarification)
Last edited by ANAND on Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
 

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