Qubits or Bits ? Humans or Bots ? Realism or Utopia ? 42.

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Qubits or Bits ? Humans or Bots ? Realism or Utopia ? 42.

by Chiantos » Tue Oct 16, 2018 19:23

Hello,

I'm a minetest player who stayed in the shadows for a long time, I participated directly or indirectly in projects, and unfortunately I saw the same mistakes happen again. Projects always start in a community spirit where all participation is taken into consideration and where newcomers are welcomed, and then over time, those who participated from the start often move away from other contributors, a born division and then the projects. then die in an agony ... And often a new version of the product is develloper during this unstable period instead of consolidating the current one and also thinking about the consideration of the whole and not just as a company where some become chief and the other slaves to this will and where communication is quickly broken or turns to conflict.

Establish a logic of Respect

I think it's essential for the Minetest community to reestablish a sense of community on both sides, be it members or main developers, through respect for others, listening and also thinking about the ideas of others, and cultivating a difference and not just his personal opinion. For example, how many times have I seen a certain contempt of one towards the others: "Our work is perfect and the users are wrong, we are right" or "The developers are wrong, and we are right", Au instead of exposing things in a more constructive way and with respect: "Thank you for your work, even we would like to be listened to on certain points ... And to argue the positive and negative sides, without hanging the other of high or l 'mugged. " Or "We understand that users want this, but we can not do it for now, but we take your opinion into account, thank you for your suggestion." Remember at the back. There are humans ...

And encourage contributors, whether their ideas seem bad or not.

Destroy the barrier and better welcome new ones.

It should be limited that it is more logical Dev Core and others, remove this barrier, where all would have their opinion to say and or the majority could determine or will the project, if it does not endanger the project in him even. Here the problem is that there are developers who are despised by their community and a community that does not necessarily feel listened to by the main developers. I am simply proposing to remove the Dev Core esr status from a true free system where the whole community has a say. This could possibly be done by creating a repo organization where could be elected different representative by the community Minetest and can be regularly change, as in a democratic framework and not dominance of a few on a project called community.

By integrating new elements and fresh blood, and by listening to their ideas or by encouraging them to integrate into this project that is minetest. Instead of indicating at the level of who is wrong, we should present things in a positive way. Instead of saying "there is little quality game, there are better", "the interface is rotten, especially for the menu", "What the community does is above all the quantity, that the quality "... You do not imagine that this is counterproductive, it will mostly scare new contributors and create a toxic atmosphere and rotten. Instead of discouraging newcomers with the negative, encouraging them to do something positive, demonstrate first what is great about this engine to encourage creation. To build something, to stop accusing others is that, on both sides, but to try to listen to you and to approach how positively you can help yourself, and to build together this minetest engine.

Stop behaving like machines

Even if I am not for the anarchy and that I am partisan of a freedom of respect of the others and also in the respect of the laws. I think that minetest is manage as by robots. Example, which makes me think more of a sectarian spirit as in 1984, it is for example to go from 0.4 to 5.0 directly without seeking the opinion of the community, but only as a sort of non-contestable protocol. To pass from Subgame to game, is to take again the person who dares to use the term "SubGame", without just taking into account his opinion and only in a frame of wanting that everybody thinks like and to impose changes like heads of company or a dictatorship. And this is a problem related to some developers and members, you have to react like humans, or you have become as closed as the non-free system that you are fighting.

This is a paradox quite common to free communities, which is closing.

Why this post?

I think it is necessary that we establish, a real spirit and vision of free, and not only free licenses. It is imperative that this project is community and not in a sectarian logic, as some project claiming free and open, but ultimately having a fairly closed approach to others and in a quite toxic atmosphere . Even if it would take that, create a new community, with a new name and a new approach. It is important that minetest aligns with a positive, respectful and open community vision for all.

Good day and Peace.
Last edited by Chiantos on Sun Oct 28, 2018 15:12, edited 5 times in total.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Re: The future of Minetest

by Dokimi » Wed Oct 17, 2018 00:41

These topics always get awkward but here we go...! ;-)

It does make sense that as a community grows from a one-man-band, to a few dozen people, to a few hundred and beyond, the needs of that community will change. Growing pains.

Too many people become involved for one-on-one relationships to solve everything.

Perhaps Minetest has gotten large enough that structures and institutions may be needed? (e.g. for dispute resolution, selecting 'leadership' positions ...whatever). I have no idea if the above ideas would work or not. But it makes sense that as Minetest grows we will require more formal structures for this community to work.

I don't know much about how things are currently being run. I am curious: what rules, structures etc do we already have?
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Wed Oct 17, 2018 13:06

NO! No, no no, oh my god, please NO!

This looks like it could be the beginning of the end. Do not force divisive politics on communities.

There is only one universal rule: Do not be an asshole.

If you want to use this CoC-esque stuff, please feel free to host an own server/forum or build a community where this applies. But do not force your lifestyle on others. Especially not on coders and FOSS aficionados.

This behavior already ruined a shit-ton of great software and communities and is currently ruining Linux beyond repair.
 

User avatar
TenPlus1
Member
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 13:38
GitHub: tenplus1

Re: The future of Minetest

by TenPlus1 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 14:01

Well said Linuxdirt, a little respect and politeness goes a long way in a community.
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Wed Oct 17, 2018 14:53

TenPlus1 wrote:a little respect and politeness goes a long way in a community.

Politeness has nothing to do with code.

Saying "the interface is rotten, especially for the menu" is absolutely fine when the interface is rotten (which it is because it uses Irrlicht's UI functionality which is rotten by design). And naming Games Subgames was a mistake from beginning an that shouldn't ever made it to the public like it did. Same with "minetest_game" being showed like that in the client and not as "Minetest Game" wich was a coding accident.

"This implementation might not be the optimal one. I am sure you had good reason to do it that way for having it in the code before the deadline" is lovely and nice, and warm, and welcoming, but it is a lie. "This implementation is shit and you know that, you only rushed it in the code before deadline" is honest and the most efficient answer. "It hurts your feelings, aww, to bad for you, then why not stop purposely coding shit one day before the deadline but instead do it properly within the time frame?"

Don't be polite, be honest and make clear what you want to say.
 

User avatar
Andrey01
Member
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 15:18
Location: Russia, Moscow
GitHub: Andrey2470T
In-game: Andrey01

Re: The future of Minetest

by Andrey01 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 15:54

Linuxdirk wrote:... And naming Games Subgames was a mistake ...

On my opinion naming Subgames as Games is tough mistake because on the logic ones games can not be contained in other game. However, subgames can.
DL9Eh7xVBw7DXwLAMX1lStE21bSD2XUQ
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Wed Oct 17, 2018 16:28

Andrey01 wrote:[...] because on the logic ones games can not be contained in other game. However, subgames can.

That is correct. But that is not how Minetest's games work since you do not create games for another game (=subgames) but games for an engine (=games).

But let's not derail this actually pretty important and relevant topic that NEEDS to be discussed in detail because it could change the project forever.
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Wed Oct 17, 2018 16:54

Hi,

A radical change of times can save a project of death, I have a very specific example: OpenOffice.

OpenOffice had several pretty big problems, having had a fork and starting on a more solid base, with more community management did not kill the project, it allowed with LibreOffice to solve important problems, and to be detached from a more closed vision, than really free. This has allowed this tool to be more easily updated, correct, secure and other, thanks to a larger participation of people.

Interest is therefore important, in my view and according to maybe my ideology to allow a real community project and would allow precisely to break its divisions between main developers and members of the community. Even if a framework was needed, the community could more easily participate and decide on its representatives or even change them. Or maybe just not having one at all ... Like some companies that work very well, where employees are both laborers and bosses of their businesses.

It would not kill Minetest, since the Original project could simply refuse this lens and a collaborative alternative vision would be available, collaborating if necessary with the original like. Look Ubuntu and Debian (And not problem, i think.)

It is also possible to explain your point of view in a positive, honest and respectful way.

If a person thinks that the best way to show that they are right in trying to crush the other is not honesty, it is simply in a logic of domination of the group or by gratuitous wickedness. In my opinion, we can respect individuals, even if the choices are different from ours, we do not build anything by the contempt of others. Because only respect other is good for no kill a project, i think.

It is important to avoid a framework that is too confrontational and toxic, to be rather constructive and really free.

Good day.
Last edited by Chiantos on Wed Oct 17, 2018 18:51, edited 3 times in total.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

sofar
Developer
 
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 07:31
GitHub: sofar
IRC: sofar
In-game: sofar

Re: The future of Minetest

by sofar » Wed Oct 17, 2018 17:35

In a drastic turn of events, I agree with Linuxdirk.
 

Skulls
Member
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 17:41
In-game: Skulls

Re: The future of Minetest

by Skulls » Wed Oct 17, 2018 20:09

Minetest is (near) dead?
Long live Minetest.

Where is this toxic, disrespectful, and confrontational environment? You can pop into the IRC room and actually get good answers whoever you are. For me that shows more respect between the devs and the users than any polite answers. Folks are literally giving up minutes or hours of their lives to help others out.
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Wed Oct 17, 2018 20:50

Chiantos wrote:A radical change of times can save a project of death,

Minetest isn’t broken. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

+ Quick off-topic history of OpenOffice because you mentioned it and I just can’t resist

Chiantos wrote:in my view and according to maybe my ideology to allow a real community project and would allow precisely to break its divisions between main developers and members of the community.

You simply can’t just slap a “Code of Conduct” on it and make all personal and personell issues magically disappear. It simply does not work like this. It didn’t work for node.js, it does not work for the Linux kernel, and it won’t work for Minetest. Any forced rules on how people have to behave simply. Do. Not. Work. At. All.

Chiantos wrote:Even if a framework was needed, the community could more easily participate and decide on its representatives or even change them.

So you basically want to install some sort of regulatory committee that has the power to kick people out of the project based on how those people behave?

Chiantos wrote:It would not kill Minetest

It will. This nonsense did this before with even larger projects.

Chiantos wrote:Look Ubuntu and Debian (And not problem, i think.)

Ubuntu is property of Canonical Ltd. They have to maintain it and sell support and advertisement to make money. They simply cannot let it die. And Debian, well, it’s Debian :) They always were like this.

Chiantos wrote:It is important to avoid a framework that is too confrontational and toxic, to be rather constructive and really free.

Please, just stop it. Any type of CoC is 100 percent the wrong approach. Implementing a CoC causes confrontations and division. Plus: everyone refuses if someone else wants to force their behavioral ideology on them.
 

User avatar
TheReaperKing
Member
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 21:36

Re: The future of Minetest

by TheReaperKing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 21:38

I think one of the great things about open source software is if you do want to try a community based approach, you can! You can fork it, create your own version and your own community and see how things go. It has already been done before too with projects like Freeminer and I'm sure many others. The possibilities are nearly endless!! Except, you do have to obey the licenses, but that's it!
Resources on happiness and life management - http://MikesHappyPlace.com
Project Lead of the Doom 3 Mod Last Man Standing - http://Doom3Coop.com
Project Lead of Platinum Arts Sandbox Free 3D Game Maker - http://SandboxGameMaker.com
Youtube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/PlatinumArtsKids
 

Shara
Moderator
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 15:18
GitHub: ezhh
IRC: Shara

Re: The future of Minetest

by Shara » Wed Oct 17, 2018 22:23

Hi Chiantos,

Just some thoughts:

Here the problem is that there are developers who are despised by their community


Every similar community I was part of had people who hated developers. An "us and them" mentality is sadly very common, and often seems inflated far beyond what has been earned. I see something similar on my server sometimes. A while back a player joined to swear at and insult me. This player really seemed to despise me. The reason? One of my moderators banned them for griefing and bad language. I wasn't online at the time and wasn't the one who banned this player, but because there are some players that despise me, should we decide I'm a problem and should no longer be a server owner?

Or maybe some parts of the community also need to show some/more respect to those who give time/resources for their enjoyment?

The issue is two ways.

... a community that does not necessarily feel listened to by the main developers.


Yet I see the active devs in the IRC channels pretty much every day, answering questions and trying to help people. Some of them actively provide help on the forums. Many of them actively review PRs on Github and respond to suggestions and questions there.

I have also seen members of the community act like and say they are not listened to, but they don't seem to listen to what the devs say to them. Could it be that some, often(but not always) younger, community members might have unrealistic expectations of what devs can do and of how much time they have? Could it be some of the community members don't listen?

To give another server related parallel, there are players who got mad at me because I can't be in game all the time to help them, and when I tried to explain I don't always have time, they started to say "Shara doesn't listen to me" and "Shara is a bad admin". Am I a bad admin for having a job and family that also need my attention? Am I a bad admin if I don't want to spend all my time helping one person?

Is it my fault if that player then joins another server and tells people there that I am bad and don't listen?

Again, the issue is two ways.

Things about "subgame" vs. "game".


A lot of non-developers were asked for and gave opinions. Go here and look at the thumbs. Lots of non-developers voted for this change. There were also discussions on IRC with many modders and community members.

You compare this change to imposing changes like a dictatorship would. It was a one word change. How much more should have been done? If more than this is needed to change a word, how much do you think is needed for the changes you suggest?


So in closing, several developers have acted in ways I don't agree with. But so have modders and players and human beings in general. No one agrees on everything all the time, but I've found most of them will look for a middle ground if you stop and have a conversation (unless they are annoyingly unreasonable children - regardless of their age).

Declaring "everything is wrong so everything must change" is just ignoring all the good here. Things can always be better, but introducing overly complicated systems based on your personal preferences, while calling those who worked hard "robots"... This seems more likely to widen any divides.
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 00:06

Hello,

In the logic of a server, I do not honestly think I have the answer, I prefer to say no, this idea was only for the engine itself. No one has to put your authority back on your server and putting his family first is just proof of common sense and respect for his family, it is normal and logical, the human relationship must be first and you are not a machine.

In the logic of the code, I honestly think that it should belong to all the world and it is already what allows the free licenses, here the idea was not mainly to fuss the members and the main devellopers in a common team, it was just a suggestion and only an idea, not a will to think you should. After considering the time invested, devellopers and community member should just respect each other for the time it provides, instead of hurting the other. When you participate in a free project, do you do it for others or for yourself?

In a collaborative vision, each time invests at the same value. It may shock the ego because not humility of some, but make necks minetest to have recognition to flatter the ego or to participate in a common project? And in this vision everything changes, we do not hold the code, we all participate together in a common project, without being able to crush the other on notions of qualities, of individual choices, but of the whole group. And Minetest have not Actually this ... This is the problem, a Big problem.

This post was not to denigrate community or devellopers, but simply to remind you that it is important for a project to listen and respect each other, even if you feel that the work of one and the other is not As you wish. And instead of automatically seeing the negative, to approach a positive, respectful and constructive approach. We already obey the license rules, we do not question the freedom, so to call into question a simple basis of respect ? I think, not understand ... Respect other is a problem ?

Already to begin, it is normal that the devellopers have a limited time and must also have free time.

And this is where the community principle should exist. If you do not have the time, just do not contribute all the members under with same model to Wikipedia for code ? This encyclopaedia works very well on this system, I do not see the problem to think about a different approach for you will release time via a massive collobartion. What is already the case, I am aware of a spirit of help, and even PR, I myself have enough recognition. But if I managed everything on my side as the main developer of blockcolor, I would not advance because it is precisely the collaborative project and I do not own it. So why not just think about an even more collaborative decision for minetest? Make the code easily free to modify, distribute and create by simply finding a collaborative system of code. It seems impossible, but why not? It will also facilitate the integration of newcomers into a freer and more open framework

I am well aware of being able to blame a part of the community or dev, inviting a more respectful and collaborative approach to this project. I do not have the precise idea of ​​how, we could do or even be a minority. But basically, free did not start that way, wanting to impose a new way of thinking and trying to have a new approach. So why, Minet is in the middle of comparing itself to another project that locks in a logic that becomes quite closed and common. Do not take the first step towards a different, even partial, approach to what free is. Simply by respecting each other to begin with and yes, if necessary to impose a regulation of good behavior. Yes if necessary, looking for a solution so that everyone can easily modify, distribute and share this code together, without having to wait for a validated evening, but simply as an easy way to edit a wikipedia page. Not possible ? Why ? Have you Test ? MineTest ?

You tell the kids that it's not realistic or that you do not have the time. Locking you in the end in a near non free. Why not simply break its limits, just like the first librarians did in going further and in a common vision. respectful and positive.

You know basically, this post is not a judgment or even a personal vision, but simply ideas, which can be debated to build a new approach or not, and simply allow to debate what you all want for minetest and not necessarily me or you, but everyone from the simple player to the original designer himself. Because for a vivid project, he has been crisers, players, modders, devellopers, hackers and all kinds of people, investing all their time to live minetest. Even I think the players count, it's simple, Minetest is nothing without them

Am I crazy? Certainly ... it's up to you to judge. In the eyes of companies and the rest of the population. the firsts people for free and open so. After, i hope that the translation tools translate my words correctly, I do not have enough English to describe all my remarks in a correct and comprehensive way, so I use a tool to be better understood. Sorry. Else difficult learn me.


Good Day All ;)
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

Shara
Moderator
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 15:18
GitHub: ezhh
IRC: Shara

Re: The future of Minetest

by Shara » Thu Oct 18, 2018 07:49

I'm not sure I understand your logic.

You start by saying: the problem is the developers are despised.

But now you want to change MT development so it is like a wiki and so everyone can contribute without needing approval? This would be a very special form of madness. On a wiki, someone adding a few sentences doesn't change the operation of the wiki as a whole. When we are talking game code, changing one line of code could completely change or break the engine or game. How would server owners (who invest huge time and money into MT) feel about the next update having zero quality control? How would they feel about it almost certainly breaking compatibility with existing game worlds? What about players who update and then have worlds full of unknown nodes because someone decided to remove things from the game?

So why, Minet is in the middle of comparing itself to another project that locks in a logic that becomes quite closed and common.


Not sure what you mean by this.

This post was not to denigrate community or devellopers


Then perhaps you should not say the developers are despised robots?

Make the code easily free to modify, distribute and create


It already is. Go and clone the Github repo. So long as you keep the license terms, do what you want with it. It is free to modify. It is free to distribute. What is the problem? You can make a fork of MT today if you want to. If your approach is better, no doubt people will come and contribute and you will be a success.

Even I think the players count


I don't know a single person involved in MT who believes otherwise. Of course players count. Many of the people involved in running MT run servers and speak to players every day. You probably don't realise this.

You seem to think there isn't much of a community spirit in MT, but maybe you're just not taking part in it?
 

Shara
Moderator
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 15:18
GitHub: ezhh
IRC: Shara

Re: The future of Minetest

by Shara » Thu Oct 18, 2018 08:03

And this gets a special post all to itself:

and yes, if necessary to impose a regulation of good behavior


The rules here already say how people should conduct themselves. These rules are not a code of conduct, but they explain expected conduct and behaviour quite well.

Maybe you think we need more rules? But the more rules you have enforcing behaviour, the more people you might need to exclude. This seems to be the exact opposite of your wish to allow absolutely everyone to directly contribute to MT.
 

User avatar
Pyrollo
Member
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 15:14
Location: Paris
GitHub: pyrollo
In-game: Naj

Re: The future of Minetest

by Pyrollo » Thu Oct 18, 2018 08:35

Chiantos wrote:When you participate in a free project, do you do it for others or for yourself?


For both yourself AND others.

And I guess you develop because you have fun doing it. And being told what to do probably removes a lot of fun. So, developping only what the comunity asks for may lead to stop developping.
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:04

Hello how are you, well? it's good.

Personally, I spoke not a logic, being more hacker and creator than developer. I'm not here to address individual or personal ideas, but to approach a mixed vision with ideas not necessarily personal, you call see it rather as hacking and not devellopement, or logic not logical. The initial post evoked ideas that are not necessarily bound together, like a rough sheet.

Is it logical or quality to code on a tablet? Surely not ... Logic and quality are simply often an excuse to prevent different ideas or means on another. You know in the eyes of people who do not share the free, the fact that people can already code in a framework of sharing is not quality or even logic.The human being is not supposed to be uniform, of quality or even logical, or he is simply a machine following creative protocols and unfortunately remaining in it. But why was it limited to this vision?

It is not possible to modify code like wikipedia in a quality way? And why not ... You know in the eyes of people, it can already have a quality problem that arises when the devellopeurs themselves make decisions, it is just that in a collaborative framework, the community and the dev iders started from a common set, it would be impossible to reject the ball and a better understanding and listening of the other would be possible.You mention the idea of ​​a fork ... if that's the only way. why not.

But basically, why divide a project in two, when we can just discuss ideas ... I do not force you to introduce a rule of conduct, or even impose ideas on others.Because this post was mostly more hacking of ideas than anything else.And if it allows to address a constructive discussion that is so far and allows me to better understand the different ideas of others, then this post is useful. Even if it does not lead to anything, it simply allows a discussion to better understand the expectations of the other on this engine.

Regarding the consideration of users or admins, I want to say that if the players use mostly android unlawful or unofficial versions, because the official crash, according to them ... and not me, there has a problem of quality. The fact of being with players who have to use their versions is also a quality problem in itself. Because the approach of quality is quite personal and individual in this case.

I knew there would necessarily be a negative approach to this topic, but did you remember at least one positive idea? Or where are you focusing on a negative vision from the beginning, preventing meditation on at least one idea or passage? Everything is not black or white, all is not necessarily to reject or accept is the machine where I was talking "Yes" or "No", "0" or "1", "quality" and "quantity" ... why not see things in gray instead of simplifying things like that? An open-minded real that should be free and even open, and so as you have with FOSS, is to go beyond a single reasoning, a single logic and break this barrier of your ideas own. This may seem illogical, but to innovate it is often necessary to break the quality and the logic. I am crazy ? Maybe ... :D Oh you have understand ? Crazy crazy ;) (joke) .

A little like children who do not necessarily seek to harm others, but who question everything, questions all, can easily integrate and change their ideas ... Let's get a little space for a moment like children and see the world like that. After that, it is probably a logic, a vision or ideas not possible with development, but more in a framework of creating mods, content or even hacking. But I strongly believe that it can be possible, and allow a better creation. Nothing is bad, nothing is good in the code, often the code is just limited by a limited approach for a limited case. You think the code is 0 and 1? But basically it can be 2, 3 or 5 ...;)

Good Day ;)
Last edited by Chiantos on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:10, edited 1 time in total.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:09

Pyrollo wrote:
Chiantos wrote:When you participate in a free project, do you do it for others or for yourself?


For both yourself AND others.

And I guess you develop because you have fun doing it. And being told what to do probably removes a lot of fun. So, developping only what the comunity asks for may lead to stop developping.


Hello,

Yes ...You devellop not only for Community, you Dev for you and for them .. else i stop Dev, in project Community and not my project, i think the project cant dead ... Because this is not your project, this the project of all.

We need others, more than we need ourselves as part of a community project.

:D Good day.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:23

Chiantos wrote:This post was not to denigrate community or devellopers, but simply to remind you that it is important for a project to listen and respect each other, even if you feel that the work of one and the other is not As you wish.

What happens if people don't obey the "CoC" you suggest? Are they removed from the project because you don't like how they behave regardless of code quality they produce like it currently happens in Linux kernel development and happened before in other project communities?

Chiantos wrote:We already obey the license rules, we do not question the freedom, so to call into question a simple basis of respect ? I think, not understand ... Respect other is a problem ?

But you DO see the difference between a license that grants freedom of code and a code of conduct that enforces some kind of ideology? You simply can't change people by forcing behavioral rules on them.

Chiantos wrote:Make the code easily free to modify, distribute and create by simply finding a collaborative system of code. It seems impossible, but why not?

Because the Wikipedia, you reference to is something completely different than a game engine code. One single line and the appliction is broken or does malicious things. It's good that we have the core developers who check and verify the code that will go into the project.

Chiantos wrote:It will also facilitate the integration of newcomers into a freer and more open framework

Newcomers have to prove their knowledge. Becoming a core developer is not done by vote or inclusion but by providing good work for the project.
 

Shara
Moderator
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 15:18
GitHub: ezhh
IRC: Shara

Re: The future of Minetest

by Shara » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28

I knew there would necessarily be a negative approach to this topic


If you find my response negative (I must assume this, since it's me you seem to be replying to), you seem to be the one locked into seeing negatives.

Everything is not black or white


No, it's not. I don't think anyone involved in running Minetest has such a simple view.

I spoke not a logic


This is becoming obvious.

If you want a "constructive discussion", then please be constructive. So far you have insulted the developers and now imply people are not open-minded. This doesn't really help constructive discussion.
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:00

Hello,

I do not think I was insulting, except if I invited to be more human ...

I took the trouble to mention no one, just for the sake of respect. If you think I insulted you, it's good that you only saw negative things in my remarks. I have fwit attention precisely to use a respectful language and take the time. If evoked the idea of ​​respect and collaboration, is insulting ... then a paradox has just occurred. After maybe coming from the fact that I translate from French to English, respectful comments probably become insulting. I especially think that you have been hurt, by words that do not have this goal.

If you think differently or suggest an alternative is insulting, then there is a problem.

Especially since my comments were fairly neutral, I mentioned both the problems of collaboration and communication, but it was aimed at both sides. And I have never talked about establishing a code of conduct, but simply a respect for others. If we distort the words, or if we misunderstand them, maybe someone else will explain them, because obviously I can not do it. After I do not stop quoting the qualities respectfully enough minetest, I even mentioned putting it forward.

But I also said that the community needed to focus on this vision of collaboration and positive.

Clearly, the initial post was meant as encouragement and ideas, not for a purpose of cririque or negative vision. Obviously, instead of taking this as a good thing, it was understood as something wrong ... Paradox surely or use bad words maybe ... I dont know.

To say that I do not contribute to minetest or that I do not have a community vision, while I am fairly grateful for help and that I thank often enough for the help I receive, could be considered insulting. Because you compare me to a contrary person just for having ideas or suggestions in a respectful way, at least I think so. I just said who should react like humans, without mentioning anyone

Good Day.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

Shara
Moderator
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 15:18
GitHub: ezhh
IRC: Shara

Re: The future of Minetest

by Shara » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:57

If you think I insulted you


Incorrect. (I said you have insulted the developers.)

I especially think that you have been hurt


Incorrect.

But I also said that the community needed to focus on this vision of collaboration and positive.


It already does.

use bad words maybe


Probably this. Trying to discuss things via translation is not easy.

To say that I do not contribute to minetest or that I do not have a community vision ... could be considered insulting.


Who said this? I didn't. (I said something very different - that you don't seem to feel there is much community spirit in Minetest... and I think this might be because you are not seeing what is here. The language barrier could be part of this.)

you compare me to a contrary person just for having ideas or suggestions in a respectful way


Incorrect.
 

User avatar
Pyrollo
Member
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 15:14
Location: Paris
GitHub: pyrollo
In-game: Naj

Re: The future of Minetest

by Pyrollo » Thu Oct 18, 2018 13:59

We should all go Esperanto, Volapuk or Kobaian :p

I don't really understand what is the starting point of your thoughts Chiantos.

Was there some sort of fact that is actually an issue?

EDIT: About language barrier, it would be very nice to have the native language in the forum user profile.
 

User avatar
Chiantos
Member
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 09:04
Location: Earth
GitHub: BlockColor
IRC: mrchiantos
In-game: mrchiantos

Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 14:17

Pyrollo wrote:We should all go Esperanto, Volapuk or Kobaian :p

I don't really understand what is the starting point of your thoughts Chiantos.

Was there some sort of fact that is actually an issue?

EDIT: About language barrier, it would be very nice to have the native language in the forum user profile.


Hello,

I do not get better explained, actually the language barrier and the translations, make it that I obviously can not express correctly the ideas that have obviously become insults, whereas I thought I was respectful enough ... c the problem when one must translate words into another language, this can be precept altogether differently than the basic purpose.

Sorry. Else Community people or Devs, think have insult them ... I think this is bad translate and use bads Words.

No only Problem, only suggest and Idea, i have not problem with Actually minetest engine.

Good Day.
Game : BlockColor - Avatar Mod with Cms : SkinKey
 

Next

Return to General Discussion



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests