Qubits or Bits ? Humans or Bots ? Realism or Utopia ? 42.

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TumeniNodes
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Re: The future of Minetest

by TumeniNodes » Post

Chiantos wrote: It is not possible to modify code like wikipedia in a quality way? And why not ... You know in the eyes of people, it can already have a quality problem that arises when the devellopeurs themselves make decisions,
Well, someone needs to make decisions... and who better than the people who know the code better than most, and have the skills set to ensure the code works correctly with each new change?

Every PR and issue are open for discussion and ideas on github, (as long as one follows the rules of expectations in behavior)
There is also IRC where devs are frequently present.

Over the history of this community, there have been a handful, same as you, who do not seem to understand how this community works.

This line
I do not think I was insulting, except if I invited to be more human ...
sort of irks me.

You claim you are not trying to be insulting... while throwing out an insult. And it bugs me when people do that.

Bottom line, at least in my feelings... the way things work are fine, and have been so for a while.
The way this community works has been established, and the structure is required in order to ensure the quality of the code.
People have been welcome to throw around ideas, whether through opening an issue, or a PR... which are both open to discussion between devs and all others involved (including end users)

Many times, when server owners get involved with those discussions, they are bringing the voice of their users into the mix.

I have told others before... if you are not happy with the way the community works, or it's rules... you are free to find another which works more to your own expectations... or start your own.
But to come into a community, and early on start saying "I don't like the way things are done, they should be changed" or similar statements, are going to go nowhere.

I honestly do not see what is so difficult to understand about how this community works, and the reasons it works.

You have been working on Block Color and I have seen that you have gotten many nice comments on it (some from developers) So I do not understand where all this came from but, I do know it is not the first time such a gripe has been put out, and I am certain it will not be the last.

In closing here I will say this... as a form of advice
When you are involved with a project, whether a developer, a contributor, or even an end user who wishes to be heard, and you become involved in discussions... leave your ego, personal beliefs, and emotions at the door.
They will be there when you get back.
One needs to be open minded and logical during such discussions, else things get out of hand and misunderstood.
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parasite
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Re: The future of Minetest

by parasite » Post

I decided to speak here to suggest that we might be nervous unnecessarily. Perhaps the text which Chiantos placed here, lost its original meaning as a result of bad translation, and is simply an artifact. English is not my native language, but I have noticed while I have no problem with reading posts written by forum users who speaks that language well, it is extremely difficult for me to read what Chiantos wrote here. I have no doubt that trying to say something which is difficult to say at all, but saying it in an unknown language using Google translator is an extremely difficult challenge. That's why I admire Chiantos for his big courage that he decided to do something like that.

So I think I should believe in what Chiantos explains:
Chiantos wrote:Sorry. Else Community people or Devs, think have insult them ... I think this is bad translate and use bads Words.
I think that he may have no intention to insult the developers.

As what I understand what Chiantos is trying to say here, he means that people should speak politely and be nice to each other. I think that each of us will agree that such a concept is very desirable:
Chiantos wrote:It is important to avoid a framework that is too confrontational and toxic
I do not think it was about reprimanding our community because we are aggressive, vulgar and the developers are deaf and doing something completely different than the people want. He simply gave a lecture on the general principles of an ideal community. Perhaps when he said that "we should be better," he did not mean that we were terrible, but he wanted to point to the general and abstract standards of growth and improvement.

An example with wikipedia seems wrong to me, because wikipedia has 100 or 1000 active users and numerous religious and social conflicts, as well as problems resulting from different attitudes and prejudices. There people really hate each other and secretly modify already existing pages to be consistent with their point of view. They must have rigid, formal rules for reporting problems and solving them because a Catholic religious fanatic having a radical view of sexuality wants a different description of homosexuality than a lesbian sociologist who is a member of various left-wing pro-social organizations. (I know that some may consider this example as biased and inappropriate, but I think it's a obvious example of what wikipedia problems are that do not exist here).

Meanwhile, our community has just 10, maybe 30 active users, that is people who actively write and edit the minetest engine and game code (and a few other complicated mods/games). And core devs team is very small. (I do not see a crowd of volunteers applying for this job.) If a group of programmers is so small, it does not need any strict rules of cooperation, those people just talk on IRC to each other and fill out and click these issues and pull request things on github. Even if a lot of people complain that github PR for a minetest or minetest game need a long time to be checked by someone from core devs, this still is not an issue to be solved by CoC.

Some also point out that developers in a project like minetest deal only with what they enjoy and what they can code and not necessarily what need to be done. It is only a group of several volunteers! Therefore, it is hard for me to imagine an attempt to force them to obey such complex rules, votes, obligatory consultations and meetings as wikipedia has. Checking if developers follow such complex rules would require several more volunteers I guess....

Maybe someone will complain of skipping forum users here, but most of them are children around 12 years old or more, who ask questions about basic problems, publish screenshots, simple mods or complain about other players in server threads. Many of them do not know what irc and github are. Those minor players, who can`t program, can`t be considered as active users of this community. They are just active users of this forums. And players do not need any CoC (except forums rules) to do what they do in this forum so far.

Nevertheless, it is good that someone thinks that our community can be improved somehow. It is always good thing I guess. We can have different opinions but we should have fun to discuss this topic ;-) I'm guessing that Chiantos presented a model of community functioning, which he considers cool, but which probably will not work here... Maybe this model needs to be modified for us, or maybe we have some other model of the community that is worth talking about? Well, I think that if we want to talk about how to improve the minetest community, we should rather talk about how to get new programmers or how to get a larger group of non-programmers to work with wiki updates, new pages, other manuals etc.
Last edited by parasite on Thu Oct 18, 2018 19:55, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by twoelk » Post

Chiantos, I really find it difficult to see your exact issues.
Or rather I think you might have difficulties in understanding how a project such as Minetest can work.

For one you can not force harmony and don't believe you can always convince absolutely everybody to move in the same direction.
Reality is sometimes people do disagree and there might not be a working compromise - and that should be acceptable as OK! If some want to make the sun yellow and others want it red, should we force everybody to accept an orange one as solution? Orange may be technically between red and yellow but that is not how people work and technically such inbetween sollutions may sometimes not be possible at all. Both parties may be quite convinced that their idea is the only valid sollution and that any other color than the one they propose is plainly stupid. Just as both parties might agree a blue sun is simply wrong.

Of course such color issues may be easily resolved with texture packs but sadly many problems are not that easily solved.

People have a right to disagree, although more focus on harmony may always be helpfull for any community, yet nobody should ever be forced into harmony. Indeed that is what democracy is about. Even if somebody wins an election and is provided with the power of his office, he has to accept that people are allowed to disagree with him and critizise his actions at all times and without fear of being muted by force.

As such our community should be strong enough to accept that some arguments are not resolved and that different opinions may coexist within the same community. We might need some better way to intigrate such conflicting opinions within the community though.

We all think that some aspects of Minetest need more work or a better sollution, sadly some of these seem to be beyond our current possabilities.

Sure the official android version needs a lot of work but even if we all vote for that to be the issue that should be solved immediately the problem still exits, that we currently do not have a developer/coder that can solve all those issues. You may have missed the sometimes quite desperate calls by the devs for help regarding the android version. The Minetest Android App needs more android coders and of that we have somewhere between a few and none. We can decide as much as we want for a change, if we don't have somebody fit for the job, nothing can change.

Surely the GUI could be made better but nobody has yet presented a really working solution that is way better. You might have missed some of the tweaks that have improved the original formspecs. Many have suggested other GUI systems but nobody has actually made as much as a proof of concept example. Simple mockups not counted. On a similar thought we can decide, vote and scream for better graphics as much as we want - nothing will happen until we find the dedicated artist that donates us his hard work for us to use, change, manipulate and edit beyond recognition.

With some things such as Minetest for Android, the GUI/formspecs, shaders, unique/original artwork, corporate design and some others the problem is not that the community, devs included, do not want things to be done but rather that in certain areas we simply are in desperate need of a benevolent, altruistic expert.

(I wonder how much of this gets all wrong when computer translated into french)

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Re: The future of Minetest

by HONEYBOOBOOCHILD » Post

tldr

Chiantos
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Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Post

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parasite
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Re: The future of Minetest

by parasite » Post

Chiantos wrote:Hello
Hello!

Do not worry. I am sure that no one has any objections to you, as well as you have nothing to be ashamed of. Especially now, when it seems obvious that possible misunderstandings about alleged insults arose from translation problems. I have already seen other threads in this forum when emotional tension show up due to incorrect translation. For example "I don't care" instead of "I don't mind" case in sofar`s Public Remote Media Server Project thread (the story begins with this post, where a list of many mods show up and sofar refuse to find those links himslef).

Well, as long as you want to write in this forum, you have the opportunity to improve your English ;-) It may seem difficult and time-consuming, but it can really be a good way to learn something more in a foreign language! In my case, the need to talk in this forum or in a chat during the game helped me to improve my English. I can even reveal the "secret" ;-) In fact, I often use the google translator myself and I think that it is very useful, but only if I can improve the most of a nonsense that google translator generates. In addition, I use in the same time several other websites, such as dictionaries showing words with similar meaning, or searching for the use of a given phrase in existing texts. (Try for example http://context.reverso.net/translation/english-french/). In this way, I can check if the phrase I want to use, and which I have built, is used in English at all ;-) But I still make many mistakes.

You have done a lot for this community. Your game shows how creatively we can modify the default minetest game. Block Color and Inside The Box Server are here something like css zen garden examples are for web coders community. ;-) I hope that you will not give up and next time you will try to writte your ideas and concpets in simpler and shorter sentences ;-) to avoid the risk of mistakes in translation.

Good Day.
:-)

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Re: The future of Minetest

by Gael de Sailly » Post

Hello,

I was, at first, not willing to involve myself in such a polemical thread. But I have chatted a lot with Chiantos about this, and found out, as parasite pointed out, that he has been totally misunderstood. He is very annoyed to see such virulent comments without being able to clarify his thoughts because of language barrier. That's why I decided to summarize what he said to me, as best as I can.

First of all, he is not trying to impose a code of conduct. Most of what he writes should be taken as ideas, or suggestions. I think that the titled paragraph format, looking a bit like law texts, was at the root of the confusion.

He has been disappointed by the general atmosphere on the forum and on Github, doesn't necessarily want to trigger a revolution, but to make us realize that there is a problem. He would like to see more respect and open-mindedness between community members, which is understandable, given some recent discussions like this one.
Chiantos wrote:Stop behaving like machines
This was about open-mindedness. He has been frustrated by some decisions that haven't taken enough the member's opinions into account, and by the fact that any idea that gets off the beaten track is rejected without discussion. This attitude, as he told me, reminds him non-free software development.

He is afraid to see the dev team collapse because of this kind of behaviors, like what happened to Wormux/Warmux (according to him), and also worried by the way we welcome new members, like when they get involved in a verbal fight between two community members that started from trivial things.

He is proposing some various, random proposals to improve Minetest's policy, that were more like side notes and were in no way intended to be taken as orders.

I hope it is clear and reflects well your mind, Chiantos. I take responsibility for anything I could have said that doesn't exactly fit with your thoughts.

--------------------
Now for my personal opinion, I consider that there is nothing wrong with the policy itself but only with the behaviour of some community members (not only developers). I disagree with most of your suggestions for changing the policy, but still think that the issues you pointed out are relevant and worth saying.

The most important thing, I think, is respect. Many people here seems to believe that, from the moment they disagree with someone, they can go without respect. At the contrary, I think that the disagreement is the situation when you have to pay the most attention to respecting others.
When everyone agrees, you're not likely to do anything disrespectful and thus the notion of respect itself doesn't apply at all.
When you disagree, there is a good and a bad way to say it. Respecting the other is not an admission of weakness. It does not mean that you will give in to opposite arguments. It's just a way to explain your position without spreading a scornful atmosphere that will make everyone want to leave.
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by sofar » Post

So ends another episode of ... The Twilight Zone.

Civility is admirable. Until the truth gets hurt, or feelings. Then torches come out. We all roast some marshmellows, tell people on the internet they are wrong, and collectively decide that the world is going to end slightly premature and maybe we should stop that.
(the story begins with this post, where a list of many mods show up and sofar refuse to find those links himslef).
It's interesting how you pick that thread. If you re-read it carefully, you'll see that it wasn't a developer that yelled that people need to be more polite on the forums. And my reaction may be honest, but it's not in any way a personal attack, I just posted that I don't have the time to do all that was requested - and even explain why I don't.

And then, the thread goes within 3 replies from bad to collaboration with people stepping up and filling in the gap. And afterwards, most of the requests have been much easier to handle :). If that isn't a positive outcome, I don't know what is. It is literally a demonstration of increased understanding between parties.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by parasite » Post

sofar wrote:It's interesting how you pick that thread.
And I think it's interesting what issues you've chosen to post a reply in this thread... after all, it is absolutely irrelevant who was talking to whom and if any developer spoken at all in the thread I quote above as an example. What is important: there was a misunderstanding resulting from the fact that someone does not speak English well. And that's all.

But you are right to pay attention to the fact that it was quickly found that what seemed to be an insolent comment was simply the use of an incorrect phrase not matched to a context. And that explained and solved the problem. That's right, language misunderstanding had a happy ending there! I expect that it will be similar in this thread.

Therefore, I am grateful that you point out that cited thread is also a good example of the fact that users of this forum have open minds and are able to repair misunderstandings where they appear. People are not perfect, so it does not always have to be that way, but I hope that when the problem will occurs, together we will be able to recognize what the problem is and thus we will be able to survive (as we will not kill each other in a fever of accusations, insults and paranoia) and even maybe we will continue to keep interesting talking and perhaps our conclusions from the discussion will help us make something better in the future.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by Linxx » Post

Chiantos wrote:Hi,

A radical change of times can save a project of death, I have a very specific example: OpenOffice.

OpenOffice had several pretty big problems, having had a fork and starting on a more solid base, with more community management did not kill the project, it allowed with LibreOffice to solve important problems, and to be detached from a more closed vision, than really free. This has allowed this tool to be more easily updated, correct, secure and other, thanks to a larger participation of people.

Interest is therefore important, in my view and according to maybe my ideology to allow a real community project and would allow precisely to break its divisions between main developers and members of the community. Even if a framework was needed, the community could more easily participate and decide on its representatives or even change them. Or maybe just not having one at all ... Like some companies that work very well, where employees are both laborers and bosses of their businesses.

It would not kill Minetest, since the Original project could simply refuse this lens and a collaborative alternative vision would be available, collaborating if necessary with the original like. Look Ubuntu and Debian (And not problem, i think.)

It is also possible to explain your point of view in a positive, honest and respectful way.

If a person thinks that the best way to show that they are right in trying to crush the other is not honesty, it is simply in a logic of domination of the group or by gratuitous wickedness. In my opinion, we can respect individuals, even if the choices are different from ours, we do not build anything by the contempt of others. Because only respect other is good for no kill a project, i think.

It is important to avoid a framework that is too confrontational and toxic, to be rather constructive and really free.

Good day.
Completely disagree and do not support this.I rather be told what I'm doing is complete trash than keep doing it wrong.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by jas » Post

I agree with this:
Spoiler

Code: Select all

"It is also possible to explain your point of view in a positive, honest and respectful way."
It's just, it takes a bit more effort.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by TumeniNodes » Post

But try to give some exact examples of the sort of behavior which caused his frustration.

Is it possible that some people tend to feel insulted or disrespected, the moment someone else disagrees with them?
This is a very common situation, especially these days.

And then the one who feels insulted and/or disrespected, their solution to this is often to just have no one disagree with them, because it makes them feel better.

If someone gets annoyed, and feels they are being wronged by people who do not have an 'open mind', it turns out that they feel there is no open mindedness simply due to the fact that someone disagreed with them...
So they feel that 'open minded' means to just agree with everyone and the best way to show respect is to just agree, and/or communicate with them as one would do with a child, with the ultimate goal of, to make them feel better, again.

They feel someone giving their honest opinion, is rude when in fact, honesty is the best form of respect.
But some people do not like honesty... when it does not fully agree with their ideas. So they then feel insulted or disrespected.

I have never, and I mean never seen anyone in this community, on either side say something like "No, I don;t like your idea, it's stupid."
Now that would be something to consider as disrespectful.
Though I have to correct that, I have seen 'one' individual behave that way but, I know it is a characteristic of most people who are from the specific country that individual is from, as I have dealt with others from there who are exactly the same. Because in their country, that is just how most people are... they criticize with sharp insults and personal attacks.But that individual has been gone for a while now, because their behavior was often unacceptable.

But other than that one individual, I have never seen this sort of disrespect or closed minded behavior.

More often than not, there are reasons behind ideas being 'shot down'.
As I said, it is very hard to determine whether the situations which have caused this frustration are actually something to get frustrated over, or if the one who feels frustrated is simply a bit overly sensitive, and easily insulted.

There is always two sides to a story/situation and, without some sort of scene to review, it is often very difficult, if not impossible to figure it out.
And the example which was used, involving sofar was/is completely off key, and nowhere does it show any form of disrespect or close mindedness, so I don't even know why that was used.

One cannot expect to be coddled like a child at every step in some environments.
And if you are over sensitive, and become upset every time someone does not agree with your ideas, it's gonna be a long and tough road ahead of you.
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Re: The future of Minetest

by Linuxdirk » Post

TumeniNodes wrote:honesty is the best form of respect.
Always be as blunt and honest as possible without personally attacking people. Attack their ideas if you think they're shit, attack their code if you think you can do it better, attack what and how they say it if you disagree with what they say. But never personally attack them.
TumeniNodes wrote:on either side say something like "No, I don;t like your idea, it's stupid."
If you know that something is stupid because it is measurable stupid (i.e. the code is horrible relating to the coding standard, or basic knowledge, or logic) then say it so and provide a better solution or information on how to fix the issue. If one thinks an idea is stupid one should be allowed to express their qualified opinion on that ("I think your Idea is stupid because this-and-that").
TumeniNodes wrote:More often than not, there are reasons behind ideas being 'shot down'.
If it is justified and properly explained I don't see any issues with that (a paraphrased "I disagree. Period." isn't a justification nor is it a proper explanation).
TumeniNodes wrote:As I said, it is very hard to determine whether the situations which have caused this frustration are actually something to get frustrated over, or if the one who feels frustrated is simply a bit overly sensitive, and easily insulted.
People who are frustrated over someone's decisions love whatever the decision was about. If they wouldn't love it they simply could say "Oh, you changed this-and-that, well, I actually don't really care". People complaining are worried about the project getting worse (even if "worse" is an individual feeling here).
TumeniNodes wrote:One cannot expect to be coddled like a child at every step in some environments.
Especially in free projects they join voluntarily. Everyone is free to leave if they do not like how a project is maintained. If you don't like how it's maintained, fork the code and start your own project.

Rule of thumb: Leave personal feelings out of code-related things. (And, of course, "Don't be an asshole.")

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Re: The future of Minetest

by paramat » Post

> It should be limited that it is more logical Dev Core and others, remove this barrier, where all would have their opinion to say and or the majority could determine or will the project,

Having core developers is actually necessary. Development by democracy would be a disaster.

> Here the problem is that there are developers who are despised by their community and a community that does not necessarily feel listened to by the main developers.

It's not quite that bad, there are inevitable and understandable differences of opinion, arguments etc. but these are natural and inevitable.
Anyone can comment on anything, and the core devs always read these comments and consider them, the community is 'listened to'.

> I am simply proposing to remove the Dev Core esr status from a true free system where the whole community has a say.

It would be a disaster in practice, it's naive idealism. I don't mean that personally towards you Chiantos, i'm criticising the idea, not you.

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Re: The future of Minetest

by Chiantos » Post

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