Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:11

MoNTE48 wrote:In fact, there are only a few Core Devs who have worked on the MC (some under different names).

It is all voluntary when it comes to Minetest, but still ... It's funny how on one hand the devs complain about not having enough dev time but on the other hand they spend dev time on a fork of the project the're the core devs for and even use a different name so no-one notices.

MoNTE48 wrote:What about publishing a game on Steam?

viewtopic.php?t=9751&view=viewpoll
viewtopic.php?t=12241
viewtopic.php?t=17887
viewtopic.php?t=19120
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:09

Linuxdirk wrote:It is all voluntary when it comes to Minetest, but still ... It's funny how on one hand the devs complain about not having enough dev time but on the other hand they spend dev time on a fork of the project the're the core devs for and even use a different name so no-one notices.


Nothing strange. We all need money and we all have to go to work. Or work on freelancing, for example. Core devs may not have free time for a free game, but there may be time in the WORK SCHEDULE to earn money for a living.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by runs » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:14

Linuxdirk wrote:
MoNTE48 wrote:In fact, there are only a few Core Devs who have worked on the MC (some under different names).

It is all voluntary when it comes to Minetest, but still ... It's funny how on one hand the devs complain about not having enough dev time but on the other hand they spend dev time on a fork of the project the're the core devs for and even use a different name so no-one notices.

MoNTE48 wrote:What about publishing a game on Steam?

viewtopic.php?t=9751&view=viewpoll
viewtopic.php?t=12241
viewtopic.php?t=17887
viewtopic.php?t=19120


Summary: Money :-D

But no problem, they can do whatever they want.

Minetest is open source, you can make thousands of forks and work on all of them. You can even sell it and make you a millionaire. I won't be the one to criticize.

The problem is another, a certain hypocrisy. Immobilism in Minetest ("everything is susceptible to improvement, but...", but not in Multicraft. If there is money involved, all the problems are over and everything is possible. The purity was no such thing. Posturing. It's curious, hahaha.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by runs » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:37

Nothing strange. We all need money and we all have to go to work. Or work on freelancing, for example. Core devs may not have free time for a free game, but there may be time in the WORK SCHEDULE to earn money for a living.


No, you're wrong, I don't know whether consciously or unconsciously.. Minetest is not only a 'free' game, is OPEN SOURCE. 'Free' of Freedom. Minetest means much more than 'free', it has a philosophy behind it, to share with others, knowledge, solidarity, some would even say that it is communism hahaha. And it has one obligation: If you modify it, you have to share it, yes or yes. Minetest wouldn't exist if it weren't for this.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:53

runs wrote:No, you're wrong, I don't know whether consciously or unconsciously.. Minetest is not only a 'free' game, is OPEN SOURCE. 'Free' of Freedom. Minetest means much more than 'free', it has a philosophy behind it, to share with others, knowledge, solidarity, some would even say that it is communism hahaha. And it has one obligation: If you modify it, you have to share it, yes or yes. Minetest wouldn't exist if it weren't for this.

Then you are wrong. Just take a look, I share all the changes.
https://github.com/MultiCraft
I also did some backport functions in Minetest, did a redesign of the java part when it was required. Now I am preparing some interesting changes for Android port, which I am porting it for Minetest as well. This will be useful for both simple players and developers.
If I tried to push through every change to the API, or functionality in Minetest, instead of creating my own fork, the development of my subgame would be frozen or complicated. Sometimes so much lua code is just a few API changes! But I know that Minetest would never agree to this, because it is specific to the MultiCraft subgame.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by rubenwardy » Wed Jul 17, 2019 15:58

Linuxdirk wrote:It is all voluntary when it comes to Minetest, but still ... It's funny how on one hand the devs complain about not having enough dev time but on the other hand they spend dev time on a fork of the project the're the core devs for and even use a different name so no-one notices.


Being paid to implement features like that isn't dev time, it's work
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by v-rob » Wed Jul 17, 2019 16:36

Linuxdirk wrote:So you say if you'd get paid you would work more for Minetest?


That would only make sense. People need money to live, and you can't work full time on something without earning money because there's no way to subsist like that.

People have an uncanny aversion to money and proprietary things in the open source community. It's almost like "This is the religion of Open Source. If you touch anything proprietary or do anything that gets you money, you are automatically evil." I'm not criticizing any one person. This is the attitude around a lot of places.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jul 17, 2019 16:45

v-rob wrote:People have an uncanny aversion to money and proprietary things in the open source community.

Nah, it's absolutely fine, as long as the results are still open source.

Maybe this could become a concept? "Hire a dev" or so. People can send money for issues on GitHub that are considered positive by the needed amount of core devs (this would prevent "take my money and implement features I want" situations) and then core devs work on implementing the feature for the money that was sent.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 16:48

I think that if I came to each of the core devs and said - I will pay you $5,000 if you work 8 hours a day on Minetest, no one would refuse. In a month we would solve more problems than in the past few years. These developers would get the opportunity to take a vacation at the main job and do what they like. Players would get a significantly improved version of Minetest and would be happy about that. I would have been called just a major sponsor. MultiCraft would also benefit from this. Everything is very simple. It is a pity that you do not understand this.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 16:51

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/is ... -194320827
Well, I once suggested this concept. For example, I paid $200 bounty for fxix the rendering of the sun and stars on Android.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jul 17, 2019 16:59

Yeah, something like that. The money should be collected (a bit like crowdfunding) for a specific issue and then paid to the dev(s) that solve the issue or implement the feature.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by runs » Wed Jul 17, 2019 19:15

MoNTE48 wrote:
runs wrote:No, you're wrong, I don't know whether consciously or unconsciously.. Minetest is not only a 'free' game, is OPEN SOURCE. 'Free' of Freedom. Minetest means much more than 'free', it has a philosophy behind it, to share with others, knowledge, solidarity, some would even say that it is communism hahaha. And it has one obligation: If you modify it, you have to share it, yes or yes. Minetest wouldn't exist if it weren't for this.

Then you are wrong. Just take a look, I share all the changes.
https://github.com/MultiCraft
I also did some backport functions in Minetest, did a redesign of the java part when it was required. Now I am preparing some interesting changes for Android port, which I am porting it for Minetest as well. This will be useful for both simple players and developers.
If I tried to push through every change to the API, or functionality in Minetest, instead of creating my own fork, the development of my subgame would be frozen or complicated. Sometimes so much lua code is just a few API changes! But I know that Minetest would never agree to this, because it is specific to the MultiCraft subgame.


I wasn't talking about Multicraft. I always defended it. Although the truth is that I didn't think the code existed, because people here are very angry at it. They even banned it from the servers, which I always said I didn't think was right for games that shared the code.

What I wanted to say, and in reference to the developers, is that if you take the money, then don't say that everything is fine. This same thread is an example, some people saying that Minetest should be promoted more, and some developers saying no, that everything is perfect. I'd like their opinion if you didn't work at Multicraft for money. But if that's not the case, I think it's a tremendous hypocrisy.

If Multicraft has 10M downloads it's because something is doing well with money. Money calls money. If you think Minetest should remain a small Open Source project, well, OK, but don't work for the competition. Or if you do, support making Minetest more 'entrepreneurial' and aggressive. So more promotion, sell t-shirts, make a lot of money to pay developers, server site, advertisements... Microsoft has now hired PewDiePie and a bunch of Youtubers to promote Minecraft. They are very afraid of Hytale. And the truth is that they had Minecraft a bit fanned, but now they have moved their ass.

To give another example, it is as if a person works in his spare time in an NGO to save children in Africa and also works in a pharmaceutical company that makes vaccines more expensive. Rare.

With this I don't want to criticize the developers, it would be stupid on my part, because without them Minetest would already be long dead for real. It's just my opinion.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 19:35

runs,
first commit in MultiCraft repo:
Commits on Apr 26, 2015
Merge pull request #2 from MultiCraftProject/multicraft-dev
@MoNTE48
Proof: https://github.com/MultiCraft/MultiCraf ... 328555edce
(Then the repo was also called MultiCraft-dev, and that was before Github agreed to transfer the name MultiCraft to my organization)
4 years I publish the modified source code MultiCraft and comply with all licenses :)
A few clarifications:
1) All applications [b]on Google Play called MultiCraft are not related to me[/b]. MultiCraft was blocked on August 31, 2018.
2) The development of the game last year is a hobby, a bit expensive for me.
3) By blocking MultiCraft on your servers you are doing a silly job. I decided to stop supporting Minetest servers this fall. Most of them are unstable, use controversial mods or hostile to mobile players.You will lose a lot of players, I will protect my players from your hostility.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by LMD » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:02

Your clarifications are irritating me extremely, especially :
> All applications on Google Play called MultiCraft are not related to me. MultiCraft was blocked on August 31, 2018.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Chiantos » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:02

LMD wrote:Your clarifications are irritating me extremely, especially :
> All applications on Google Play called MultiCraft are not related to me. MultiCraft was blocked on August 31, 2018.


He just said some things:

1 - That it does not have a control on all the forks distributed on the store and that his is not there anymore, it is logical one can not control all forks of games in open source.

2 - That he just wanted to do his thing, without having to be fought by managers of servers, users or even devellopeurs they want to fight the forks of minetest. And that it is logical that he wishes to no longer support minetest or other servers, if it continues ... And since multicraft is mostly used, your servers may indeed be totally empty for some.

3 - The fact that you grab him to make money with commercials that usually does not pay anything, must surely also enervate ... Many are unaware of the fees that may require the management of servers, equipment to do development or other. Ignorant even if open source has been able to develop, it is not thanks to a model only sharing, but also with financial support. And the multicraft ads must pay him less than he has lost financially ... Making opensource development for most of us, often amounts to losing money and not to win. This is very unfortunate, because in general this free time is lost to try to provide work, but where people would like everyone to be always free ..


Me honestly, it's more this sectarian behavior, closed and completely stupid that begins to enervate me ... You are about to put you back, people who try to contribute to their way for this community ... Because some make forks, where put advertisements (respecting the licenses, not like the majority). Yes except, if we fork in general it's for a reason, to be able to add or modify functions for our own projects. That if he puts advertising, it is surely not to earn money, but to reduce losses ...

Except if you live with your parents ... our free time and money do not come from anywhere. In general, we lose as much as the other, but we do it by sharing, but we win neither time nor money ... quite the opposite. So instead of pissing off people who share things by respecting licenses and trying to simply deliver their work, you'd better encourage creation, instead of always hounding people as well.

If it continues, you will all lose ... You will be able to stay between you, with your official versions, your official servers and everything else ... and we will go do our things away from this community. Because damn shit ... You all start to make us totally piss that it is a part of the community, managers of servers or even some devellopeurs. Instead of always behaving like idiots, it would be nice to learn a little respect for people who try to do what they can, losing both their time and their money to be screamed at by people behaving like a sect.

If you continue, I think I will give up the support for minetest and distribute for my part my game apart, as thinking of the monte48 because it is fed up. So keep going, and you'll see the result ... I even wonder if I will not use the multicraft work for my own project and try to help it.

You will be able to stay between you with all your servers, games or other official thing. ... Shit.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by runs » Thu Jul 18, 2019 14:23

I second your words. The forks that follow the license should be treated with max respect. Even if they earn money by advertisements or other ways. Open source is free of freedom, no free of not to earn money or not have to pay.

Chiantos wrote:
LMD wrote:Your clarifications are irritating me extremely, especially :
> All applications on Google Play called MultiCraft are not related to me. MultiCraft was blocked on August 31, 2018.


He just said some things:

1 - That it does not have a control on all the forks distributed on the store and that his is not there anymore, it is logical one can not control all forks of games in open source.

2 - That he just wanted to do his thing, without having to be fought by managers of servers, users or even devellopeurs they want to fight the forks of minetest. And that it is logical that he wishes to no longer support minetest or other servers, if it continues ... And since multicraft is mostly used, your servers may indeed be totally empty for some.

3 - The fact that you grab him to make money with commercials that usually does not pay anything, must surely also enervate ... Many are unaware of the fees that may require the management of servers, equipment to do development or other. Ignorant even if open source has been able to develop, it is not thanks to a model only sharing, but also with financial support. And the multicraft ads must pay him less than he has lost financially ... Making opensource development for most of us, often amounts to losing money and not to win. This is very unfortunate, because in general this free time is lost to try to provide work, but where people would like everyone to be always free ..


Me honestly, it's more this sectarian behavior, closed and completely stupid that begins to enervate me ... You are about to put you back, people who try to contribute to their way for this community ... Because some make forks, where put advertisements (respecting the licenses, not like the majority). Yes except, if we fork in general it's for a reason, to be able to add or modify functions for our own projects. That if he puts advertising, it is surely not to earn money, but to reduce losses ...

Except if you live with your parents ... our free time and money do not come from anywhere. In general, we lose as much as the other, but we do it by sharing, but we win neither time nor money ... quite the opposite. So instead of pissing off people who share things by respecting licenses and trying to simply deliver their work, you'd better encourage creation, instead of always hounding people as well.

If it continues, you will all lose ... You will be able to stay between you, with your official versions, your official servers and everything else ... and we will go do our things away from this community. Because damn shit ... You all start to make us totally piss that it is a part of the community, managers of servers or even some devellopeurs. Instead of always behaving like idiots, it would be nice to learn a little respect for people who try to do what they can, losing both their time and their money to be screamed at by people behaving like a sect.

If you continue, I think I will give up the support for minetest and distribute for my part my game apart, as thinking of the monte48 because it is fed up. So keep going, and you'll see the result ... I even wonder if I will not use the multicraft work for my own project and try to help it.

You will be able to stay between you with all your servers, games or other official thing. ... Shit.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by LMD » Thu Jul 18, 2019 20:12

You probably got me wrong, Chiantos. I just said that I had an absolutely different impression on how things are.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 20:25

LMD wrote:You probably got me wrong, Chiantos. I just said that I had an absolutely different impression on how things are.

So share them. I do not know the rest, but my telepathy is not as strong as I would like :)
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Chiantos » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:44

LMD wrote:I thought you were responsible for MultiCraft on Google Play.


He was, it seems to me. But he can not be responsible for all the multicraft forks on the Play Store. As minetest can not be responsible for all the forks minetes on the Play Store. This is the problem of some members of this community ... Before attacking a person on what it does or not, it would be interesting to inform you about what it does or not.

And also by passing on what allows a license or not ... And understand that even if a person makes a mistake, it is not necessarily a troll or bad. This is the problem of minetest, respect and communication ... If people were looking for this, before looking to get in trouble with others ... So maybe minetest would be more popular and even use.

How to make minetest "best"? Respect the other contributors (whether official or not), do not see alternative projects like all enemies, the notion of money as forcing bad and stop necessarily looking for problems to the smallest problem.

You want a minetest better? So instead of always looking to put yourself above others or to be better than others, it would be important for this community to be closer to an open source vision and collaboration.

Get out of this damn hypocrisy of saying that everything is fine in minetest, whether the problem comes from either the main developers or the community, or external creators who fork or not. And maybe the ... you can start working together.

I'm not naughty, I say it with respect ... but it must be honest that the behavior of some in this community that it comes from some developers, creators, member or other, it does not help minetest.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 13:04

Chiantos wrote:You want a minetest better? So instead of always looking to put yourself above others or to be better than others, it would be important for this community to be closer to an open source vision and collaboration.

Yeah, this is so funny actually. Some devs claim that the official Android Minetest client is the best of the best of the best, but a couple of thousand downloads compared to multiple million downloads of the forks are not entirely the users fault, or that there is not enough marketing.

Minetest is super unpolished, has super inconsistent graphics and sounds, and the UI simply sucks. Those are all things that are fixable but instead page long discussions about changing a single simple value in the default configuration are made. The development pace is extremely slow and now will be even slower with some of the devs are involved in that cool CERN project.

Actual changes in Minetest are introduced with larger version updates only, those updates happen once every 1-2 years. None of this changes really bring Minetest forward. Those are nice additions, but the last REAL fundamental major change was the introduction of mods.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by rubenwardy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 13:44

Maybe some of those issues would be fixed quicker if you actually contributed rather than just whining all the time
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 14:23

... or if devs would not work for the forks but for Minetest.

(Oh, and actually I tried to sort out where I can contribute by creating issues for things where I had in mind to work on when supported by devs. Since none of the things were supported I have nothing I'm willing to work on.)
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by MoNTE48 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 15:19

rubenwardy, +1!!!
Linuxdirk, I agree with you, too.
When I see something wrong in my fork, I take it and fix it. I am responsible for every decision and change. I try to release regular updates. In fact, when I see a game that has not received an update for half a year, I believe that it is abandoned. Minetest should release minor updates with new versions of subgame or minor changes to the engine at least monthly. All minor versions must be compatible.
And this is one of the main mistakes of the community. The game is not an 3D engine or an operating system in which stability is valued, and not new features.
 

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