Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

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Linuxdirk
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 15:49

MoNTE48 wrote:When I see something wrong in my fork, I take it and fix it. I am responsible for every decision and change.

Exactly. I did not volunteer being a Minetest dev so I don't spend my dev time on Minetest but on whatever I like. As said: I tried to sort out on what to spend my dev time when it comes to Minetest. The conclusion/result of this is that there is nothing in Minetest I like to spend dev time for that is considered as being worthy to be added (general dislikes or by discussion in my or other peoples issues). Instead I spend the time for developing my (unreleased) "redefinition" mod that changes the aspects I don't like in a way that I like them.

MoNTE48 wrote:Minetest should release minor updates with new versions of subgame or minor changes to the engine at least monthly. All minor versions must be compatible.

This is not how Minetest development works. Before 5.0.0 version numbers were completely arbitrary and now they take aspects from SemVer but without using SemVer. There is also no fixed release schedule. It takes months to release a new minor version and larger updates are usually years apart. Having a monthly releases simply won't work. Especially not now where multiple devs work on that CERN game. Just accept the super slow dev pace.

MoNTE48 wrote:The game is not an 3D engine or an operating system in which stability is valued, and not new features.

Minetest is pretty stable. It chokes on minor mod code issues, but in general it runs very well. It's lust like Debian stable: slow dev pace and constantly outdated because the old stuff is modified to fit the needs and is more stable and tested within the ecosystem.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by rubenwardy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 16:50

Linuxdirk wrote:I did not volunteer being a Minetest dev so I don't spend my dev time on Minetest but on whatever I like


So you're saying that we shouldn't spend our time on what we like, but just Minetest? Wow, entitlement

Linuxdirk wrote:now they take aspects from SemVer but without using SemVer.


We do use SemVer for releases, but apparently our dev versions aren't compliant.

I'm pretty sure we do comply with SemVer though. 5.0.0-dev refers to a branch of development, not a single version. Single development versions are referred to with tags like this:

Image

Linuxdirk wrote:There is also no fixed release schedule.


We release twice a year. Fixing it to specific days would not be practical

Linuxdirk wrote:Especially not now where multiple devs work on that CERN game. Just accept the super slow dev pace.


The CERN game doesn't take from my dev time any more than my other projects. In fact, it may even add to my dev time by me spending more time using Minetest and finding issues - this happened when I worked on CTF. I also hope that relations with CERN will help with obtaining contributors and good press, which is one of the reasons I was eager to help arrange it
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 17:43

rubenwardy wrote:So you're saying that we shouldn't spend our time on what we like, but just Minetest? Wow, entitlement

Please carefully read what I wrote. You can do whatever you want. With no word I said something about how you should use your dev time.

rubenwardy wrote:I'm pretty sure we do comply with SemVer though

Check the part about versions and API changes.

rubenwardy wrote:I also hope that relations with CERN will help with obtaining contributors and good press, which is one of the reasons I was eager to help arrange it

This would be super cool, yes. I too hope that this works out very well for everyone.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by GayJesus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 20:14

Minetest is fine
it is the massive number of servers that suck
that is the problem of keeping players coming back
Minetest has turned into a adult only game with nerds who believe all players want to code or figure out complex machine, tech and mesecon mods.
MineCraft & MuliCraft have better servers and more players.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Chiantos » Fri Jul 19, 2019 20:39

GayJesus wrote:Minetest is fine
it is the massive number of servers that suck
that is the problem of keeping players coming back
Minetest has turned into a adult only game with nerds who believe all players want to code or figure out complex machine, tech and mesecon mods.
MineCraft & MuliCraft have better servers and more players.


After that, if you put everyone in the same bag and so silly and disrespectful ...

Some people are geeks (not nerds), humans with feelings and empathy who do not just think about doing something complex or just for adults and try to treat others with respect. You will always find rotten fruit on a tree, it does not mean that there are no good fruits on it.

So, in reality, I see users taking the lead on how minetest should be programmed, and they do not necessarily go the right way, and it's even rather disabling for minetest. But about you, I see you coming out of nowhere to say that minetest is shit and that minecraft is much better ... Maybe, but it's even worse than the fact that some creators, members of the community or developers arguing about how to program minetest. Because besides being insulting, it does not help ... it does not matter, do you have suggestions to suggest?

Because if it's only to shit on all over this community, you can go see elsewhere.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by v-rob » Sat Jul 20, 2019 17:08

Linuxdirk wrote:The development pace is extremely slow and now will be even slower with some of the devs are involved in that cool CERN project.


Actually, in my experience, people often are more productive when they are happy or having fun. They're doing the CERN project because they want to and are probably having fun doing it. Plus, the engine isn't the only aspect of Minetest that is important. Minetest means next to nothing without games.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by ShadMOrdre » Sun Jul 21, 2019 07:07

Hmmmmmmmmmm......


How, in any dimension, reality, universe or other paradigm shift you choose to use, can CERN involvement in a free open source game, that we all LOVE, equate to anything other than FREE ADVERTISING FROM ONE OF THE GREATEST SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATIONS ON THE PLANET, which brings attention, which attracts developers, content creators, and oh yeah, THE MOST BRILLIANT FREAKIN MINDS ON THE PLANET!!!! Not to mention the whole link to the entirety of the WORLD WIDE WEB, and the connotations and all the other wholesome goodness that comes with the attention of such an esteemed organization.......


LD, If you ain't a core dev, cause you choose to spend your time as you wish, why you complain so much about what the core devs do. They don't whine about your mods. Why you whine about their efforts to let you mod? Really, who cares if MT is semver compliant. That IS a NERD thing, not a 5yo player thing. Most players and users don't know what semver is, much less give a rats @r$e about MT compliance. If MT plays a game for them, they're happy campers, and semver is .................... :) Mehbe try to say, great job devs, instead of complaining that MT isn't designed or coded to your desire. If you want it, start coding it, or don't. But the negs and the whines,.........

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by GayJesus » Sun Jul 21, 2019 19:12

Chiantos wrote: Because besides being insulting, it does not help ... it does not matter, do you have suggestions to suggest?

Because if it's only to shit on all over this community, you can go see elsewhere.


I said "most servers suck" not development. I like the clean slate with mods to be added by choice.

"suggestions" Yes, Server owners should play thier server to test for problems. Here's some very common ones that make your servers suck ass.

1. You didn't give privs like home, spawn, fast, zoom, far. Fast can be adjusted for use as sprint. There's a thread suggesting sprint should be added to MG when it's already there, dumbass server owners just didn't apply it.

2. You gave your friends a bunch of items or extra privs on a SURVIVAL server. that's not survival and ruined your server for those who wanted to play SURVIVAL!

3.No access to any food source when you have something like hunger mod installed. I die before finding food, I quit.

4.You added mods thats break other mods. For example, adding 3d Armor untweaked can sometimes make users invincible to PVP or mobs. TEST your server and use common logic.

5. IRC can be useful for a admin but some of us users don't care to have our ip across another network with alah knows who is watching. It's less safe.

I can think of much more but these are fairly common screw ups that make about 70-90% of MT servers suck a fat one.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by LMD » Sun Jul 21, 2019 21:49

> 1. You didn't give privs like home, spawn, fast, zoom, far. Fast can be adjusted for use as sprint. There's a thread suggesting sprint should be added to MG when it's already there, dumbass server owners just didn't apply it.

Some servers give you fast, others don't. In fact, many of these privs can ruin server gameplay. home ? Allows teleporting with sethome. Zoom ? Also big advantage. No need to craft anything anymore to zoom. Fast ? Also overpowered, you become way to fast, mobs have no chance to chase you.

> 2. You gave your friends a bunch of items or extra privs on a SURVIVAL server. that's not survival and ruined your server for those who wanted to play SURVIVAL!

Agreed, can be a mistake. But in 1., it looks like you don't want to play on a survival server ?

> 3.No access to any food source when you have something like hunger mod installed. I die before finding food, I quit.

Agreed, server admins should fix such issues.

> 4.You added mods thats break other mods. For example, adding 3d Armor untweaked can sometimes make users invincible to PVP or mobs. TEST your server and use common logic.

I haven't heard of such a bug. Many servers also want players to be invincible. Check the server description.

> 5. IRC can be useful for a admin but some of us users don't care to have our ip across another network with alah knows who is watching. It's less safe.

I'm sorry, but this is not true at all. At least using my adv_chat mod, the IRC chat bridge does not leak your IP. It also uses a safe SSL connection. As long as the server is not hacked, your data should be safe. And if the server is hacked, you can't assume any data to be safe, except for encrypted data with passwords not stored there.

Summary : 1 - don't agree; 2 - agreed; 3 - agreed; 4 - don't agree; 5 - don't agree

By the way, please watch your language ("suck a fat one", "suck ass", "dumbass server owners"), and don't make assumptions about things you didn't fully understand ("5. IRC")
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Jul 22, 2019 00:37

You will always get further, better response, solutions to issues, or whatever else you need by practicing a whole lot of:

Hey, I experienced this problem, when doing this action. This breaks gameplay.

OR

Hey, I noticed that this feature seems only available to some users, and I was wondering why?

OR

Hey, you might want to fix ..... mod, it seems either broken, or unused.

OR

Hey, if you were to tweak this mod in this way, game play would be enhanced.


It's been a real experience in life to see the opposite, and its consequences:

Hey, yer server sux!

Then don't play.

OR

Hey, this is @#*&*(&^!

Then don't play.

OR

HEY I JUST WANT TO BE RUDE AND COMPLAIN WITHOUT OFFERING CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE OR JUST TO BE A TROLL OR TO ....

Banned!


If you don't like a particular server, try a different one, or host your own, or play singleplayer. There are far better options than to offer nothing but rudeness and offense.

Are you an MCer, here to try to bring down the better option???

Trolls tend to get slayed in the gaming community, and some of us relish troll smashing. Please, don't be a troll, cause I will feed you poison, just to watch you die.

Other than that, welcome aboard, and give a look around and spend time, earn cred, and then your opinions might carry a bit of weight.

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by GayJesus » Mon Jul 22, 2019 03:51

LMD wrote:> 1. You didn't give privs like home, spawn, fast, zoom, far. Fast can be adjusted for use as sprint. There's a thread suggesting sprint should be added to MG when it's already there, dumbass server owners just didn't apply it.

Some servers give you fast, others don't. In fact, many of these privs can ruin server gameplay. home ? Allows teleporting with sethome. Zoom ? Also big advantage. No need to craft anything anymore to zoom. Fast ? Also overpowered, you become way to fast, mobs have no chance to chase you.

> 2. You gave your friends a bunch of items or extra privs on a SURVIVAL server. that's not survival and ruined your server for those who wanted to play SURVIVAL!

Agreed, can be a mistake. But in 1., it looks like you don't want to play on a survival server ?

> 3.No access to any food source when you have something like hunger mod installed. I die before finding food, I quit.

Agreed, server admins should fix such issues.

> 4.You added mods thats break other mods. For example, adding 3d Armor untweaked can sometimes make users invincible to PVP or mobs. TEST your server and use common logic.

I haven't heard of such a bug. Many servers also want players to be invincible. Check the server description.

> 5. IRC can be useful for a admin but some of us users don't care to have our ip across another network with alah knows who is watching. It's less safe.

I'm sorry, but this is not true at all. At least using my adv_chat mod, the IRC chat bridge does not leak your IP. It also uses a safe SSL connection. As long as the server is not hacked, your data should be safe. And if the server is hacked, you can't assume any data to be safe, except for encrypted data with passwords not stored there.

Summary : 1 - don't agree; 2 - agreed; 3 - agreed; 4 - don't agree; 5 - don't agree

By the way, please watch your language ("suck a fat one", "suck ass", "dumbass server owners"), and don't make assumptions about things you didn't fully understand ("5. IRC")


1. I simply mean some hosts didn't consider available privs. No you don't want zoom if you use binoculars, logic. Fast can be adjusted to a jog speed which is good when traveling great distance while walking at 4 puts you to sleep from boredom. No you don't want fast if you're using stamina mod or hunger which should take care of this,. /sethome or a teleport mod like travelnet is logical when you have to mine far to obtain certain ores, are you really gonna dig over 1K nodes every time you log on?

4. I've tested many many mods. 1 version of 3d armor made PVP impossible. I couldn't hit other player and Mob monsters could not damage me. Survival? only if you fall of a cliff. And there's several weapon mods that overkill anything 1 shot or hit. Yes there's bad mods, the server host needs to figure this out before throwing a bunch of junk together and thinking their laggy, bloated "I got everything so it must be great" server doesn't suck, it does. Sorry if that makes some of you cry.


5.What is your IRC mod called? I'll look it up. My past experince with irc and MT told me niether are encrypted by default. IRC shows ip & hostname upon joining. A few years ago someone told me they can see everyones ip on a MT server by running wireshark in that servers irc channel, so I started to avoid servers with irc mod.


I'm not trolling. Trying to help with what I believe is good advice that will bring more players that want to stay.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by sofar » Mon Jul 22, 2019 05:42

Linuxdirk wrote:Some devs claim that the official Android Minetest client is the best of the best of the best, but a couple of thousand downloads compared to multiple million downloads of the forks are not entirely the users fault, or that there is not enough marketing.


Citation needed. Specifically, please quote developers who used: "the best of the best of the best".

... I'm pretty sure everyone agrees there are massive areas for improvement....

I'm also convinced that the fact that the word `test` is part of the name, is cause for millions of android users to skip it and download pretty much anything else instead. I mean, c'mon, if you didn't know either, would you download multicraft, or minetest, just based on the name?
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Linuxdirk » Mon Jul 22, 2019 07:05

sofar wrote:Citation needed. Specifically, please quote developers who used: "the best of the best of the best".

I'm not going to search all Github issues and forum posts where devs state that the official MT client is the best client available. This was stated several times in various issues and forum posts. And for the downloads: Just go to the Play Store and count them by yourself.

sofar wrote:I'm also convinced that the fact that the word `test` is part of the name, is cause for millions of android users to skip it and download pretty much anything else instead.

All efforts in changing the name to something better were ignored or talked to dead by the devs.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by LMD » Mon Jul 22, 2019 09:28

> 5.What is your IRC mod called? I'll look it up. My past experince with irc and MT told me niether are encrypted by default. IRC shows ip & hostname upon joining.

As said, my IRC mod is called adv_chat. It works over a bot which uses SSL if configured properly. All IRC clients should use SSL if possible.

> A few years ago someone told me they can see everyones ip on a MT server by running wireshark in that servers irc channel, so I started to avoid servers with irc mod.

Have they demonstrated it ? Also, that's no real problem IMO. Almost everyone can see your IP, you give it to websites for free. However, I don't see how that should be possible using adv_chat. The chat bridge bot should not leak such information.

If you still have concerns, use a VPN.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Festus1965 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:02

Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

I am waiting for more posts for this started thread ... This thread had been hijacked and also mods don't realize it ?
But that might be a reason that Minetest is so less known and used. Loosing the point.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by benrob0329 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 16:28

Fast ? Also overpowered, you become way to fast, mobs have no chance to chase you.

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/bl ... mple#L1365

Why does everyone think fast is some admin-only hard-coded speed boost? It's really quite flexible.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by parasite » Mon Jul 22, 2019 16:31

Festus1965 wrote:Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

I am waiting for more posts for this started thread ...


Let me help you back to this topic. My answer is: yes, we should.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by sofar » Mon Jul 22, 2019 17:18

Linuxdirk wrote:All efforts in changing the name to something better were ignored or talked to dead by the devs.


ahhh right. citation totally not needed, cuz, what you say is totally representative of the facts, history, and context again. And it is in no way attempting to make a certain part of the minetest community look bad. mk then.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by TumeniNodes » Mon Jul 22, 2019 18:32

We could call it "Poo" and be done with any further naming discussions.
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by runs » Mon Jul 22, 2019 20:44

fucking :-/

With all due respect that rude word was superfluous, in my humble opinion. It sounds very aggressive to me.

Better to use reasoned dialectics. Sofar was already committing a fallacy with his argument. 'The Straw man' one, I believe.

I think it's good to argue even if the thread isn't of this concern. Discussing is good, but always with respect and good manners.

P.S: I take this post to announce that soon I will upload to Youtube a series of videos of Minetest. Stay tuned and subscribe, even if you don't like them, but subscribe. <--That is a "advertise" :-D
Last edited by runs on Mon Jul 22, 2019 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Chiantos » Mon Jul 22, 2019 21:08

The best way to make minetest better is probably by forking it. (Joke)
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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Jul 22, 2019 22:15

@Sofar,

I would like to offer this position, in regards to why Minetest needs a name change.

Project history and established name notwithstanding.....

The optical illusion.

When I see the name Minetest, in its blocky letter form, honestly, I do not see test. I, and most others see, craft. This is both part of an optical illusion, as well as, a human psychology issue. It is why companies can sue you when you use anything that even vaguely resembles their IP.

Most players aren't looking for MT. They ARE looking for MC. For free. Or MC, with the freedom to mod or otherwise have better control over the server. Both of these types do not see Minetest. The above psychological aspect, as well as the optical illusion at play renders the name Minetest as Minecraft. It is only upon active viewing by the individual person, that the name Minetest is actually even seen. All arguments regarding downloads on the play store should be seen in light of the above two factors.

Please, for the love of this wonderful voxel engine, please, please, please, let it move beyond the name of MT and all its associations with a dying kids game. No one will ever see Minetest as anything other than a MC derivative because of this name. MT will never be able to go beyond the pale comparisons to MC. MC is a lame kid game, without much objective, and really lame gameplay. As long as MT is named thus, it will suffer the same comparisons in most peoples minds. When folks go looking for a voxel engine, MT most likely never even enters the discussion, because of the overwhelming Google pages regarding MC, when searching for the words voxel or mine.

It is time to have this discussion. It is time to consider the status quo as a last resort, not as the best option or simply to maintain continuity with old code. MT can come out of the MC fad fade, but only if it truly disassociates with all things even remotely considered related to MC. The alternative, as with so many projects that have come before, is to fade with the fad.

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by sofar » Tue Jul 23, 2019 01:09

I'm actually for changing the name, so, any sort of paraphrasing that all the devs are shutting this down is not represantative of my opinion nor of others that I've talked with about this topic. If you said "dev X and Y" are shutting it down, I'd have no issue with it, I can see you perceive it that way. The linked threads confirm this, even though linuxdirk's claims otherwise, I see nuanced answers, e.g. "let's not rename during a minor release version" etc..

As for "straw man" argument, that's just shutting down my willingness even more to argue in favor of changing the name. But hey, not my loss really. I've almost entirely given up on MTG aside the occasional nasty bug fix anyway. I'll gladly do engine work though, if time permits.

Look, if you want devs to help and stay positive, stop making them out as people you can't talk to that shut down threads, because the more you keep repeating this sort of paraphrasing, the more likely devs are going to IGNORE YOU WHEN YOU NEED TO SAY SOMETHING VALID. Several people in this list are doing this with their pars-pro-toto/toto-pro-pars statements. Really, would it hurt to insert the word "SOME" in these sentences?

On top of that, this sort of arguing about technicalities while one side is allowed to blanket paraphrase others but people can't put footnotes on how historical discussions happened is just an utter garbage waste of energy.

stop talking, start coding. I'm going to cook dinner now, seeya.
 

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Re: Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

by Festus1965 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 01:25

parasite wrote:
Festus1965 wrote:Should we "advertise" Minetest better ?

I am waiting for more posts for this started thread ...


Let me help you back to this topic. My answer is: yes, we should.


Thanks man, - so the Question Opening is wrong already !!! = never get a solution.

There need to be a new Thread called "How can we advertise minetest better ?" ?
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