Strip the default status from MTG

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Linuxdirk
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Linuxdirk » Mon Sep 30, 2019 05:36

v-rob wrote:MTG isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

It is a catastrophe! It is bland, it's boring, it lacks any kind of challenge or depth. There are no goals, no achievements, nothing to aim for. There are swords bot nothing to fight, there are hoes but no need to run a farm, there are 64000 meter height but the highest mountain is just a few hundreds meters high. Underground is boring and without challenge, and it repeats itself below 1024 meters deep.

Minetest Game lacks everything a good game has. But at the same time it is pretty much mandatory because it provides some much-needed APIs through it's mods. APIs that should be part of the engine, and not of a game.

v-rob wrote:I believe that removing MTG as the default game at this current time would be the stupidest thing we could do gamewise..

It may be very late to get rid of MTG as standard game but keeping it as modding base - but the longer we wait the more it will become too late.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Wuzzy » Mon Sep 30, 2019 06:30

I ask for your honest opinion: Was it a mistake to not include Repixture for 5.1.0?

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8935
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by duane » Mon Sep 30, 2019 06:42

Linuxdirk wrote:It is a catastrophe!


OMG! Declare a national emergency!

Linuxdirk wrote:It is bland, it's boring, it lacks any kind of challenge or depth.


You keep saying that, can't prove it, and obviously not everyone agrees.

Linuxdirk wrote:There are no goals, no achievements, nothing to aim for.


You can build things, grow things, explore. Oh, wait, you don't have a point counter telling you that you did it right? Meh.

Linuxdirk wrote:There are swords bot nothing to fight


... except other players. Of course no one ever plays that sort of game.

Linuxdirk wrote:there are hoes but no need to run a farm


I still did it, just for fun.

Linuxdirk wrote:there are 64000 meter height but the highest mountain is just a few hundreds meters high


That's up to the mapgen. It doesn't even have anything to do with the game. Come on, you're not even trying now.

People keep making indefensible statements, but it basically boils down to, "I don't like it." That's your opinion, but not (necessarily) a majority.

We should probably also consider what sort of players we want to attract. Are the sort of people that get bored easily or can't be bothered to download a game what we're after? I'm not saying yes or no, just asking. "Dumbing down" has destroyed games before. (Please don't be offended, I'm using a common phrase, not belittling anyone's intelligence.)
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Sep 30, 2019 07:49

Perhaps, Wuzzy, you've asked the wrong question?

Are there any games that are "complete", "feature-rich", or otherwise worthy of promotion by the MT core devs?

Again, the core devs MUST preserve their legal protections when promoting ANY subgame. This is the most important consideration.

After, then the topics of maintenance, future development, and general effort involved in supporting any promoted games, and who will step forward to do the work. Wuzzy, are you willing to commit to maintaining any other potentially promoted game?

Linuxdirk, are you willing to commit to maintaining projects? Even if they are hosted on Github? I don't want vitriol or further opinions regarding Github, I want to simply know if you will commit to something to make your goals achievable?

Is ANYONE else willing to COMMIT to maintaining a game, or better yet, collaborating within a team so that projects can be made to outlive ones desire to continue or life expectancy?


These are actual questions that should be answered. If there is no willingness to commit, then your opinions and comments regarding others choice to commit, and the actions they take due to those commitments, are just hot air.

Are you full of hot air, or is there substance to your existence?

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by duane » Mon Sep 30, 2019 09:15

ShadMOrdre wrote:Is ANYONE else willing to COMMIT to maintaining a game, or better yet, collaborating within a team so that projects can be made to outlive ones desire to continue or life expectancy?


I am embarrassed to say that I've already been part of this problem. For those who weren't around (or just didn't care), I was the guy who decided to convert the lua version of Valleys Mapgen into the C version that eventually became the valleys choice in the current game. I liked Valleys and had just enough C knowledge to be dangerous, so I put something fairly ugly together, and the developers were so happy to be getting any assistance on that front that they welcomed it (and me) with open arms.

Of course the assumption was that I'd be sticking around and putting a lot of effort into maintaining the mapgen, rather than dumping it on them and running off. In my defense, I'd never really considered any obligation -- I just wanted to see Valleys run faster, and knew no one else was likely to do it. I didn't (and still don't) understand how it works; I just knew how to translate lua into C, and did so. However, Paramat got stuck with whipping it into shape, after it was officially added to the game, and has had to keep it up to speed with the other mapgens, despite knowing even less about it than I did (initially).

Making the software is easy. Being there to maintain it, ten years later, is not. People have already committed to maintaining MTG. Is that true of other projects?
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Linuxdirk » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:28

duane wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:It is bland, it's boring, it lacks any kind of challenge or depth.


You keep saying that, can't prove it,

Just start MTG without any other mods.

duane wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:There are swords bot nothing to fight


... except other players. Of course no one ever plays that sort of game.

Except the melee system is utterly stupid and broken by design.

duane wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:there are 64000 meter height but the highest mountain is just a few hundreds meters high


That's up to the mapgen. It doesn't even have anything to do with the game. Come on, you're not even trying now.

No. A good game would take one of the existing mapgens and tweaks it to make it actually fun and challenging and using some variation to make it interesting.

duane wrote:We should probably also consider what sort of players we want to attract.

It can't be creative players because MTG lacks a lot of cool node to be really creative with the builds. It can't be PvP players because the melee system is stupidly broken. It can't be PvE players, because there are no enemies. It can't be hikers/nomads, because a surface of 64000x64000 nodes is not large enough(a) and the height of 64000 nodes is not efficiently used. It can't be survival players because there are no survival elements. It can't be farmers because there is not much to farm and no reason to do so. It can't be explorers, because there is pretty much nothing to explore. It can't be spelunkers because the caves are awesomely large but boringly empty.

MTG wants to address all of the above but none of them gets what is needed to have super fun. Yu absolutely need a metric shit-ton of mods to make MTG fun. This it where its strengths are. Its a good base for modding. It is far from being a game.

duane wrote:"Dumbing down" has destroyed games before. (Please don't be offended, I'm using a common phrase, not belittling anyone's intelligence.)

MTG can't be dumbed down any further. It just can be made more fun and entertaining and modern by adding fun, entertaining, and modern functionality.

(a) I once tried a nomad play just for fun - never settle longer than 2 days at the same location, always move roughly in the same direction. After an interrupted play time of roughly a week the world border was reached. I did the same ages ago with Minecraft (before Notch sold out to MICROS~1) and never reached any kind of border for months of interrupted gameplay.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Wuzzy » Mon Sep 30, 2019 14:33

This is not a generic MTG rant thread. Please stay on topic.

This thread is about the default status of MTG.

Is ANYONE else willing to COMMIT to maintaining a game, or better yet, collaborating within a team so that projects can be made to outlive ones desire to continue or life expectancy?


Well, it depends. I think Repixture is finished now, and bugs are fixed. The maintenence load of this should be very low. A few compability fixes every Minetest update and that's it. And Minetest devs seem to be extremely careful with breakage anyway. If a game is truly finished, maintaining it shouldn't be hard. And a major release (X.0.0) is very rare. Even 5.0.0 was quite careful to keep breakage at a minimum.
I think for Repixure I really just need to check, like every 6 months or so. Unless some undiscovered bugs appear.

Different story for a game that's unfinished or very buggy or uses experimental API in Minetest that is very much in flux. But the more mature Minetest becomes, the more stable the APIs will become as well. I predict formspecs will still be in flux for some time. Simply because there's so many odds and ends. But they will introduce formspec versions which is good.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by benrob0329 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 15:23

MTG IS BAD, EXTERMINATE!

Arguing about how bad or good MTG is is not going to get you anywhere.

The only reason a new player would be disapointed to find a storefront rather than Free Minecraft is because we still treat Minetest like a game. Heck, just yesterday someone joined the Unnoficial Discord asking about how to change the website and version strings because they wanted to make thier own game based on MT, not for MT.

Does Steam need to come with content? Of cource not, it's a content distribution platform, so is Minetest. Stop treating Minetest like a game, and maybe we'll make some progress.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Xudo » Mon Sep 30, 2019 20:34

I don't agree that MT should be content distribution platform. To distribute content you can just use browser. And that would be more success than having to download and install application, which is used to download and install games. I have Steam, bit torrent and web browser and it is enough. I don't need just another downloader application. Why would anyone need it?
If I download and install application, then I should be able to play it.
Content distribution platform makes any sense only if there is a lot to distribute. From my point of view, all what MT is offering is a sandbox to play in game development and some servers featuring their own gameplay.
Minetest is not only client of ContentDB. It is also a game (in common meaning of the word). Rubenwardy is trying to promote it as a game engine and it sounds reasonable. But it also means that "making game based on MT, not for MT" actually make sense.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by benrob0329 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 23:25

Ruben made the ContentDB because games are made for MT, not forked from it. The CDB by nature makes Minetest a content distribution platform, there is nothing to agree or disagree about.

I've suggested making MT a more library-like game engine, but the amount of structural changed needed makes it impractical.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by duane » Tue Oct 01, 2019 01:42

Xudo wrote:I don't agree that MT should be content distribution platform. To distribute content you can just use browser.


Hear, hear. I never cared for the contentdb, even when it was just an idea. At best, it will distract from the more flexible distribution methods (i.e. the forums) and encourage ignorant players.

Also, spare a thought for the new player who selects a game from the new game selection menu, that sounds cool, then finds that its developer has just dropped it and moved on. What kind of taste will that leave in his mouth?
Last edited by duane on Tue Oct 01, 2019 02:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by duane » Tue Oct 01, 2019 02:41

Wuzzy wrote:This is not a generic MTG rant thread. Please stay on topic.

This thread is about the default status of MTG.


Six of your ten points qualify as MTG rants. That's why the thread is moving in that direction. Maybe you should reexamine your first post?

Honestly, if you wanted to get anything productive out of this thread, your first sentence should have been, "I have this code (mock-up, pseudo-code) allowing the new player to instantly choose a default game from among the options stored on this platform (describe the platform); how can I make it good enough to get it into the game?"

I wouldn't play a game that started that way, but it seems to be more what you're after.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by ShadMOrdre » Tue Oct 01, 2019 03:40

Wuzzy,

duane,

I can earnestly state that you both have shown your willingness to commit. You both are still here, and still contributing something, usually big things. That speaks volumes!

And a big thanksto you both for those contributions.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Xudo » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:45

benrob0329 wrote:Ruben made the ContentDB because games are made for MT, not forked from it. The CDB by nature makes Minetest a content distribution platform, there is nothing to agree or disagree about.

Ability to download something from the remote server does not make program "content distribution platform". This definition puts MT on a par to web-browser.
Compare MT with Steam and Google PlayMarket.
User can't "play" Steam. MT can be played. User has the ability to play MTG despite lack of gameplay.
CDPs are used only for one purpose: distribution of content. They are typically feature ratings, recommendations, commentaries and update distributions.
I think that focusing on features of CDP will distract developers from making features for game engine.
Think how users are coming to play MT. I think that the only way is to use web-browser.
So there are two possible options to provide player with specific game for MT:
1. Package this game to MT distribution and put download link to https://www.minetest.net/downloads/
2. Implement ContentDB, implement main screen with options to download mods-games
To play game in first case, player should:
a. Find MT on the internet. He also can find specific game on the internet too.
b. Go to download page
c. Choose game to play
d. Choose package for his system
e. Wait for download to complete
f. Install application
g. Run it
h. Press "play"

To play some game in second case, player should do:
a. Find MT on the internet
b. Go to download page
c. Choose package for his system
d. Wait for download to complete
e. Install application
f. Run it
g. Choose game to play (how?)
h. Wait for download
I. Play the game

The question "how player will choose game to play?" is very important one. CDP solve it by recommendations, ratings and so on. None of those features exist in MT. They all require huge amount of work.

So if direction of MT is "game" one, then we should provide player with good game out of the box.
If it is "engine" one, then we should be able to make standalone packages with games out of the box.
If it is "content distribution platform" one, then we should answer the questions "how player will choose game to play?" and "what content are you going to distribute?".

At this current state of affairs direction is unknown.
From https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/8768 I see that Rubenwardy thinks about "engine," direction and opinions of other core developers are not clear.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by GayJesus » Fri Oct 04, 2019 07:17

parasite wrote:I wanted to say that the most important thing is clear information for new users.


The first menu should be language selection.
The second should simplistically list choices. ie single player, run your own server, select game. ect.
This should be done in single words if possible or sentences, not paragrahs.

Last thing I want to add is that I prefer installing only what I want. MTG is already going the wrong direction with tnt stick, binoculars, mapper ect.
I prefer options to download content I choose.
This would keep the engine and base unbloated and easier to fix.
This would let average users without technical skills customize and run a server or play how they want to play. No bloatware please. No devs fighting over who's game or mods get stuffed into a bloated buggy, you fix your mod! no you fix your engine!
Simple intro, easy choices and options, then fun playing.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by rubenwardy » Fri Oct 04, 2019 08:06

GayJesus wrote:The first menu should be language selection.


I disagree with this, Minetest detecting the system language is the correct behaviour, as it does currently. The first screen should have an icon/button for changing language, but nothing more
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Xudo » Fri Oct 04, 2019 09:02

Look to the battle for wesnoth as good example of merging mods to mainline.
They had only a single game in base package at the beginning. Mods which were stable enough eventually became "mainline". Now there a dozen of mainline campaigns.
They release their game approx every year. With even-stable and odd-unstable numeration.
In addition, they have add-on server which allows users to play other mods. In contrast to MT, each mod there is standalone and playable from the beginning.
Each campaign has extensive description to help new player to choose what to play.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by GayJesus » Fri Oct 04, 2019 14:02

Ignore my post, I stand corrected. I was not aware MT had the language detection feature. A language mod was popular a couple of years ago which made me believe MT was English only until the user or server mod selected or allowed otherwise.

rubenwardy wrote:
GayJesus wrote:The first menu should be language selection.


I disagree with this, Minetest detecting the system language is the correct behaviour, as it does currently. The first screen should have an icon/button for changing language, but nothing more
 

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