Strip the default status from MTG

Chiantos
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Chiantos » Thu Sep 26, 2019 21:01

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Linuxdirk » Fri Sep 27, 2019 08:52

Chiantos wrote:The real question is: Why do creators prefer to abandon their games on minetest and use another engine?

Because they're stuck with what's possible and the stuff that is possible is not enough to implement the features they want.

Chiantos wrote:_ The engine is itself a problem ...

The engine is a voxel game engine which is absolutely fine.

The problem is that the modding capabilities of the engine are very narrow and focused on creating games that are somewhat similar to MTG. This comes from the strong binding between Minetest and Minetest Game and is just one more reason to de-couple those two things.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Chiantos » Fri Sep 27, 2019 09:14

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by texmex » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:00

Can we erase all posts and start over? This topic is too important to grant space for the usual derailment. :(
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Chiantos » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:14

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by ShadMOrdre » Fri Sep 27, 2019 17:17

People abandon projects for a variety of reasons. Boredom, life, search for new things, life, ....

ON TOPIC:
Specific reasons for removing MTG. None. It is, in fact, a very usable environment. For both simple game play and as an intro to modding. It should be advertised as such.

In fact, MT is capable of far more tasks than game making. So maybe we should separate the terms. Game versus environment. MT is an engine for making environments. Games are but one type of use cases for MT engine. That is what I would STRONGLY advertise.

Specific reasons to encourage devs to quit hard coding dependencies on default. Read on...

1. Depending on default mod for LIGHT_MAX, LIQUID_VISC, or any other hard coded constants. Just enter the value and remove the dependency. Processing IS better, since no round trips to get the constant value need to be made. The value is included right there, and no unnecessary dependencies.

2. Depending on default for craft recipes. This is unnecessary. Craft recipes should be in separate mod, with dependencies on the necessary mods. This ensures that mods can be used with other games.

3. Depending on default for sounds. I get this, BUT.... this is just bad. I don't want to include all those sound files in my mod. So learn how to inherit the sound of the parent material, include your own custom sounds, or do ANYTHING else but hard depend on default for node_sound_defaults.

4. Depending on default for leaf_decay, lava_cool, or any other ABM using code. MTG is NOT as v5.0 aware as some would think. Plants still use ABMs for growth, leaves for decay, instead of node timers. In my lib_ecology mod, ALL leaf_decay and sapling growth uses node timers. And the performance increase is noticeable.

5. Depending on default for textures. Again, just inherit a texture from the parent material.

6. Default mod simply tries to do too much. APIs and content should be as separate as possible. Also, should be focused on a single topic. Player_API was moved out of default, and while this didn't break mods, due to Player_API properly creating aliases, there are a number of mods that just haven't been, and may never be, updated. There are other examples as well.

End of list


So I've been running without the default mod for about a month now, having cherry picked the desired mods from MTG. Most of what I used has either been folded into new mods, to better organize things. Tools as a mod. Chests, and derivatives and other storage type objects as a singular mod. Breaking everything apart, to learn how it can be put back together in meaningful, coherent, easy to use ways. And working diligently to remove hard coded, and even soft coded dependencies.

Also, pull requests are but one way to address this issue. Fully developed, functional alternatives are also a way. When I said to post solutions, I meant this. I am MORE than aware of Wuzzy's SUBSTANTIAL contributions to this community. Some of those contributions actually, in some way or another, contribute to the very issue of which he is addressing here.

So again, complaining that the milk got spilled, talking about the spilled milk endlessly, discussing how the milk got spilled, trying to figure out how to keep the milk from spilling,...well....those conversations can be had. They are not going to solve the issue. The milk is spilled. Get a towel, and start mopping it up.

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by ShadMOrdre » Fri Sep 27, 2019 17:34

The engine is a voxel game engine which is absolutely fine.


100% correct.

The problem is that the modding capabilities of the engine are very narrow and focused on creating games that are somewhat similar to MTG. This comes from the strong binding between Minetest and Minetest Game and is just one more reason to de-couple those two things.


100% false. The narrow, focused, uninventive mindset of the game developers is the only roadblock here. MT engine is FAR more than a game engine.

Separately, if you want top of the line graphics, top of the line options, go pay for Unity. If the game you desire to create is not possible on MT, it is not the fault of MT, it is the failure of the developer to choose the appropriate tool. Quit complaining that you can't do what you want. I don't complain that my screwdriver won't open my fridge and bring me a beer. That's not what it was made for, and ANY expectation that the screwdriver should do ANYTHING else but turn a screw is the fault of the person with the expectation. Nothing more or less here.

How does MT as a voxel engine fail? Sorry, but if you are asking this question, you lack knowledge, understanding, creativity, and perhaps, most importantly, you lack critical skills. Go back to origin, and start again.


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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by paramat » Sat Sep 28, 2019 00:03

rubenwardy wrote:I support removing special status from minetest game to encourage more parity of games. However, despite all its criticisms, Minetest Game is still the best game to recommend to new users as it is reasonably stable. It is actually quite fun when you add a few mods on top of it. Promoting the ability to install other games when first opening the client would hopefully encourage the creation and continued maintenance of other games

I totally agree.
MTG is a good sandbox environment within which newbies can familiarise themselves with MT. Such a game is necessary, having no game bundled would be worse and disappointing for a newbie, even with CDB.
I would like to have at least one more game bundled with MT so that MTG doesn't get focussed on.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by paramat » Sat Sep 28, 2019 00:20

Chiantos wrote:https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2730
When you see ... No add a good feature, only because Paramat have not a good mouse ... You understand all ...

You have misrepresented what happened in that issue.
I disapproved of the feature request but 1 dissapproval cannot block a feature, i explained this here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2730#issuecomment-352367533 which you missed or ignored.
The feature has not happened yet, but not because of my disapproval, because no-one has submitted a PR yet, see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2730#issuecomment-379794634
A PR would probably be supported by other core devs and i couldn't stop it alone even if i disapproved.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by paramat » Sat Sep 28, 2019 00:27

Chiantos wrote:Because there is a big ego problem in this community where everyone stays on their positions.

The most unpleasant ego in this thread is yourself.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by benrob0329 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 02:31

A few notes:
    1. Minetest is a volunteer project, core devs have about as much free time as you and me so they must choose what to work on carefully.

    2. Bringing other drama against the core devs here is unwarranted and bad. Don't do this.

    3. MTG is a bad game, but a great base for modded servers and worlds. This isn't bad to include, but I feel that it could be installed locally rather than as a system-wide default.

    4. It's far less disappointing to new users to be presented with the ability to choose from several games and mods rather than the base experience of one or two. Some of these can even be featured, or installed automatically but I think that they still need to be treated as "from the ContentDB, where you can find many other things to play!"

    5. Why are we advertising Minetest, and not all the games and mods for it? Minetest is a game engine and content distribution platform. Each game should be advertising itself, otherwise all we have is watered-down technical info that only game-devs care about or MTG stuff. This hurts MTG, Minetest, and all the games written for it. Minetest is treated like MTG, but with some extra DLC or like a game engine with nothing to offer to players. MTG has enough to be advertisable in it's own right, being the extendible base that it is. Repixture has enough, considering the more well-rounded MC-like game that it is. Nodecore has enough, considering it's an experimental puzzle-based crafting game based around organic exploration of the world and how to concur it.

    Yet, we focus more on how to advertise Minetest better, rather than how to let the games and the mods speak for themselves.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Xudo » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:11

So, instead of pushing Repixture as new game bundled with MT 5.1.0 by default, Wuzzy decided to stay outlaw and keep ranting MTG. I don't think that forum threads could change anything.
I also think that there should be some default game bundled with MT as long as main menu does not offer simple choices for downloading new games. If noone is persistent enough to propose replacement of MTG, then MTG should be default game. I think it is fair enough.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by parasite » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:33

Once again, I would like to return to what I said in my post in this thread. I thought maybe I was not clear and the picture is sometimes better than words. Namely, I wanted to say that the most important thing is clear information for new users. If providing a minetest without any game is too controversial, it might be enough to provide the information itself. Here is an example:
Image

It may be a good idea to include the checkbox "[x] show / hide additional information" for this info, but I just post an example, not a complete design of new interfce.

I agree with the idea to remove the "Minimal development test" from the default distribution. If this is a test environment for engine developers and/or mods & games developers, let them download and install something like this separately. If they will need this, they will do this in the way I suggested it here. Development tools in a minetest distribution for small children are not a smart solution.

Chiantos wrote:
parasite wrote:In addition, many games are later abandoned by their creators and become _outdated_.


The real question is: Why do creators prefer to abandon their games on minetest and use another engine?

I would like to answer this topic. I think the question made by Chiantos is a bad question in our case. I am not sure if many developers have abandoned their projects in the minetest engine and went to co-create another game, e.g. AssaultCube. The creators simply abandon their works, regardless of whether they do something later or not. There are many reasons why amateur programmers are abandoning their hobby projects. It is not important here to recognize such reasons and list them all. We do not deal here with the psychological and sociological aspect of the hobby of programming of the open source games and their add-ons. Why is this not important? Because it just happens, amateur programmers simply abandon their projects sooner or later! This is a fact and the question should be not why this world is working like that (this is an interesting question by the way) but how we can do better in a world that works like that. It is worth noting that not all abandoned projects are lost in the depths of history, some are still managed by other mods & games devs, such as technic, mesecons, unified_inventory... so sometimes abandoned projects can get some community support after they were abandoned, or after a key programmer died, went to another game, or just got bored, or abandoned programming at all to drive an ambulance and work in a rescue team. But again, not all projects and not always can get such second life. So, instead of thinking about the causes of the phenomenon that happen regardless of anything (which is perhaps important, but not necessarily here in this thread), let's manage the minetest despite the fact that such an event occurs.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by rubenwardy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:45

My plan is to make a screen like this the first screen you see when starting up Minetest (although I plan to make it a scrolling list with game descriptions, and fix the contrast):

Image

Help from designers would be desirable for making this page explain the project well
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Wuzzy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 13:31

So, instead of pushing Repixture as new game bundled with MT 5.1.0 by default, Wuzzy decided to stay outlaw and keep ranting MTG.

Oh, so it's now all my fault, sure! *rolleyes*

The core devs demanded that I basically give away control over Repixture. They wanted to force Repixutre to be restrained to the same 6-month release cycle as Minetest. And that Repixture be part of Linux package managers. Basically Repixture would have just become the next MTG. This approach would have completely bypassed the whole Content DB, just like MTG currently bypasses the Content DB. I thought this was a stupid idea, and I called it out. Repixture would therefore reign “king” over other games simply by being default, which is kinda stupid. The goal of this thread is to make Minetest more neutral. The separation of engine and games is kind of important.
Another reason was that I didn't want to have a last-minute inclusion as that would have likely gone very wrong.
But ultimately, this wasn't my decision, but the core dev's decision. They have the final say of what is and what is not included in Minetest. I mean, the Tutorial was also not accepted, so I think I should consider the Tutorial to be a huge failure as well. (before you ask “But didn't you say that no games should be included?” Yes, I did say that. But the Tutorial is not a game, so I'm not hypocritical here. But anyway, tutorial inclusion is off-topic. Sorry)

Also, this is not actually an anti-MTG thread or MTG rant thread (not this time). It's really only about removing MTG from default. I didn't propose to kill MTG. Please read more carefully.

Sadly, my suggestion to remove MTG from default was apparently not accepted. So, for 5.1.0, this thread is a complete failure. Looks like it's going to be another MT+MTG release this time. :-( Nothing will ever change. I almost believe the only way forwards is a hard fork.

Main menu suggestions are off-topic (sorry). Feel free to open a new thread.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by solars » Sun Sep 29, 2019 13:40

I like the last screenshot from rubenwardy. :)

But I think, MTG should NOT loose the default status.

My idea is, to use some fundamental MODS as default too. This mods should be official and so stable like the game self. This mods should not called mods anymore, but features of the MinetestGame.
Mods should use the features like the main game and depend on them.

When you start a new MinetestGame, you should choose, what features the game should use.

I think, this should be the features:

Mobs
Technik
Transport (Trains, Ships and Cars)
Role Play Game - Elements (Leveling)

Here a screenshot:

Image
minetest.png
(33.92 KiB) Not downloaded yet


The name of the game is choosen bevor, like in the screenshot from rubenwardy.



EDIT:

I think, this features should be for MinetestGame only. But other Games can define own features. Every Game should be more unique this way.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by parasite » Sun Sep 29, 2019 13:47

Wuzzy wrote:Main menu suggestions are off-topic (sorry). Feel free to open a new thread.

I do not think so. Placing additional information is a solution to problems arising from what you write about: that new users, mainly kids downloading a minetest from the play store, quit very quickly without finding what they are looking for in the Minetest game. So, since removing MTG is problematic, including other games also, then maybe just providing simple information on what to do with a minetest will be some solution.

What are we talking about here? About solving a serious problem that I just mentioned above (that is, a problem that Wuzzy pointed out that new users do not understand how to use the minetest), or is it only about lamentation "oh my god, MTG sucks and evrything sucks too, and do not even try to answer becouse it will also sucks"? Crying because devs don't want to remove MTG, which not only you thought was a good idea, would not solve the mentioned problem. Let's look for something that could be accepted.

Wuzzy wrote:They wanted to force Repixutre to be restrained to the same 6-month release cycle as Minetest. And that Repixture be part of Linux package managers. Basically Repixture would have just become the next MTG.
I guess those are fair enough demandings for any game to be included in the "official" mass release of the minetest.

BTW The sentence "<any game here> would have just become the next MTG" has double meaning, one which states it become a game officially distributed with minetest and immediately available to each new user with the first launch, and a second, that it will suck like MTG sucks. I am not sure which meaning you wanted to use here Wuzzy.

solars wrote:My idea is, to use some fundamental MODS as default too. This mods should be official and so stable like the game self. This mods should not called mods anymore, but features of the MinetestGame.
Mods should use the features like the main game and depend on them.

I do not think this will fit what minetest is. How to treat games like Hades, the Box, capture the flag in your solution? This approach completely closes creativity of minetest. Technic, mobs, and other mods you mention are not features, they are MTG mods. And what about other "features" like farming, magic, weapons, space... those are mods only for MTG. Some of them can work well with MTG but not with other games. Someone maight like other technical mods, but not technic. And so on. In the minetest it is cool that you can have small mods and build your world from them. Why replace it with huge packages made of mods-packs? Suppose a user wants minecraft. As soon as he or she will understands the idea of ​​adding mods to MTG, he or she will build a better game than minecraft. But when he or she will be able to add only heavy mods-packs, the user can get some unpleasent errors at first lunch and get stuck on dependencies, which will be worse for minetest promotion then it is right now. Or user will make a game that does not meet his or her expectations or will be too heavy for his or her computer or mobile device. I guess your idea is nice, but we need something more general I guess.

And if you want the interface topic actually be off topic here, let me make a little joke. I'm afraid, however, that this funny proposal will not fit well on Android he he

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by parasite » Sun Sep 29, 2019 14:21

rubenwardy wrote:Image

I know CDB isn't perfect, but that's a bit rude


I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. I just want to show an example of how to add more information to the minetest interface to help new user understand how to use this software, not to make anybody feel awkwardly or embarrassingly. I don't know what you exactly mean, but I guess you understand what I wanted to say. The typo was not intended. Fixed now.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by solars » Sun Sep 29, 2019 14:22

parasite wrote:I do not think this will fit what minetest is. How to treat games like Hades, the Box, capture the flag in your solution? This approach completely closes creativity of minetest. Technic, mobs, and other mods you mention are not features, they are MTG mods. Only for MTG. Some of them can work well with MTG but not with other games. Someone may like other technical mods, but not technic. And so on. I guess your idea is nice, but we need something more general I guess.


I don't mean, the other games can't use them. Technically, they should be mods. But so stable and reliable as the MinetestGame. So, other modders can rely on them as basis.

And other games should define there own features. The player of the MinetestGame has so a minimal Mod-set, that is maintained and guarantied for the future versions. And the player of other games can have features to, where the game-maker guaranties, they work with the game perfectly and should, but not must, used.

In CTF, the features can be:
firearms
explosives

What is a feature for one Game can be a Mod for an other.

So there is:

Mods in the Game: There in there, no option
Features: Optional preselected Mods, the correct funktion with the game is maintained by the Gamemaker, there will be there, so longe the game is there.
Mods: Optional, use at own risk. Can break or alter the game. Can be abandoned.
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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by rubenwardy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 16:08

parasite wrote:I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. I just want to show an example of how to add more information to the minetest interface to help new user understand how to use this software, not to make anybody feel awkwardly or embarrassingly. I don't know what you exactly mean, but I guess you understand what I wanted to say. The typo was not intended. Fixed now.


I was joking, I knew it was a typo. Just a funny one
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by Xudo » Sun Sep 29, 2019 17:21

Regarding "providing simple information on what to do with a minetest will be some solution.".
I don't think it is good to just showcase names and pictures of the games.
It is better to ask player: what do you like to do?
with options (I'd like to...):
- Relax by gathering things
- Create beautiful structures
- Fight for my life
- Create sophisticated contraptions

And provide game recommendations for each answer.
List of answers can be expanded by mods featuring more types of gameplay.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by v-rob » Mon Sep 30, 2019 01:29

If I was a new user after taking the time to download Minetest and get it working, I wouldn't want to take the time to look for a game for it. I remember when I was a new player, I just wanted to play, and I could.

Plus, if we point players to a content repo with many incomplete and/or unstable games, that will make a worse impression than a default mediocre game.

Wuzzy wrote:
Another thing: Mods aren't neutral; many of them only work with MTG, so removing MTG as default will make nearly no mods work. Picture a new user: They download MineClone 2 only to find that NONE of the mods in the Content Database work. That would turn out as an even bigger detriment to many players. Sure, they have a good first impression (maybe, depending on the game they choose), but then they find that Minetest doesn't work beyond the vanilla game they downloaded.

I think this is just a terrible argument to keep things as they are. Part of the reason why the overwhelming majority of mods are for MTG is exactly because of its default status.

Then we should remove MTG from the default status and make those mods not work. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to fix it, but to invalidate years of work and confuse new users by making the mods in the CDB not work for whatever game they downloaded is just dumb. As I said before, it will make an even worse impression.

Minetest Game is too ingrained to remove, and it's pretty much too late to change. Is it really that bad? Not really.

Ooff, I really dislike this negativity. And I think this is also completely false. Removing the default status of MTG would not break anything at all. In fact, development can happily continue without any issues. It's basically just a (non-)promotion thing.

It's not negativity. MTG isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It's bland, but I, and many other people, actually do like it. What other game can you mod in the same way? Let's face it: MTG is the only modding base that works with the vast majority of mods perfectly and seamlessly.

I believe that removing MTG as the default game at this current time would be the stupidest thing we could do gamewise. If we have better games or a better default game, then maybe. But not now.
 

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Re: Strip the default status from MTG

by ShadMOrdre » Mon Sep 30, 2019 03:51

The simple truth of this entire discussion, is that Minetest absolutely needs to ship with content. Not a link to content, but actual content. Why? Simply look at all the unused, content-less API mods. ;)

As such, the core developers of Minetest need to have, at their disposal, and under their control, (ie git accounts, release schedules, development related issues, and so forth....) a "game" of some content, with some playability.

Am I a fan of the fact that the majority of mods seem to be made "for" MTG? No, because it makes creating larger types of ideas next to impossibly frustrating. A mod that does a single simple thing is great. Games, however, require a multitude of these "simple" mods simply to create content. In the larger context, most game programming efforts are simply to ensure compatibility between all those mods. The "game" gets lost in the shear volume of coding work to ensure functionality and compatibility, while the game design continues to (d)evolve to accommodate the ever arising issues from this update here, or that update there, breaking something, anywhere.

I think MTG can be better designed, to help the above tasks. Content, can be better organized, separated from APIs. APIs can be made more practical. I've said it before, and while not popular, APIs for beds and doors are bad. They encourage modders to only think about creating a "new" bed. Why not create a new functionality instead? The "sleep" mechanism of the beds mod should be the API, while the code for creating the actual bed should be left to the mod creating the bed. Why? Because, we already have beds. They serve their purpose. Let's move beyond thinking that a cool mod is a mod that provides a blue bed instead of a red bed. The cool mod is the mod that adds new functionality, or substantially new or different content. Not a version of an existing thing. If modders only created these "themed" items, we'd really get no new content. I know, rant, off topic, and not popular.


My point is this. The core devs need something to distribute. They need to ensure that what is advertised with, and thus promoted by them, is worthy of said promotion. They also need to have control simply for legal reasons. Any content promoted by the core devs must be completely free of legal issues. Otherwise, they jeopardize themselves. Think Napster.


Shad
MY MODS: lib_ecology lib_materials lib_clouds lib_node_shapes ---- Inspired By: Open Source Virtual World Simulator Opensimulator.
 

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