Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

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Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Sat Oct 26, 2019 20:17

So, you have a decent gaming PC, yet your framerate in Minetest is low (especially when moving around while the minimap is on.) This, obviously, really sets your hair on fire (makes you angry:)
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After looking around on the internet, you manage to come across GZDoom, which is a modern source port of the Doom and Doom II engine. To your amazement, you find that it has Vulcan support, even though it is based on software from the 1990s. Seeing that, you then begin to realize that if it can have Vulcan support, then there is absolutely no reason that Minetest can't. Heck, GZDoom has even been ported to mobile devices too, you know. Looking around on the internet some more, you eventually come across a few attempts to give the Irrlicht engine support for the Vulcan api:
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=51197
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51869
It is at this moment that your face becomes like the popular meme below:
Image
So, funny story and images aside, who else in this community thinks that adding the Vulcan rendering api to Minetest as an option would be a good idea (mainly after viewing those attempts above?)
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by rubenwardy » Sat Oct 26, 2019 21:37

Minetest doesn't use graphic cards particularly well, adding Vulcan won't fix it
 

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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Sat Oct 26, 2019 22:26

rubenwardy wrote:Minetest doesn't use graphic cards particularly well, adding Vulcan won't fix it

That's not good...
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That's a big problem right there. Considering how jp is adding water reflections to Minetest, you'd think that making better use of graphics cards would be top priority, but I guess that's not the case. I'm pretty certain that even Doom Eternal doesn't render as many polygons per second as Minetest does, and that game is as graphically impressive as you can get. You see, this very serious issue gives new people the right to think your game is trash. I know that's a very ugly truth to take in, but it's indeed true.
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Linuxdirk » Sat Oct 26, 2019 23:47

Inocudom wrote:So, funny story and images aside, who else in this community thinks that adding the Vulcan rendering api to Minetest as an option would be a good idea (mainly after viewing those attempts above?)

Last of my games that updated to Vulkan was unplayable on Linux for several weeks (No Man’s Sky on Steam running with Proton).
 

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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Sun Oct 27, 2019 03:16

Linuxdirk wrote:
Inocudom wrote:So, funny story and images aside, who else in this community thinks that adding the Vulcan rendering api to Minetest as an option would be a good idea (mainly after viewing those attempts above?)

Last of my games that updated to Vulkan was unplayable on Linux for several weeks (No Man’s Sky on Steam running with Proton).

But it did become playable again eventually, didn't it?
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by benrob0329 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 06:29

No, that's not how that works. Vulkan is a new graphics API and is good because of that, and is probably more efficient for some tasks than OpenGL. This does not mean that every game to tack on support for it will instantly have insane performance. Minetest doesn't use OpenGL properly, does not have a consistent and efficient graphics pipeline, and splits the development time between two different graphics pipelines (both of which suck atm).

Vulkan does not fix any of these things, and spending development time trying to adopt it will only make things worse.
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:27

Sounds like Minetest needs to be able to use OpenGL properly first before it can use Vulcan. No wonder you haven't been making any YouTube videos lately. It's hard to get good footage with OBS Studio when the game you are recording is so badly optimized that the resulting fps ends up being like a slideshow (first-hand experience there by the way.) If a game has severe performance issues, it doesn't matter how much user content it has, since it's bad optimization will kill any joy that would have been experienced otherwise.

Thanks to DuckDuckGo I recently found out that there were older topics in these forums that talked about Minetest's severe graphics issues before I did. They don't exist here anymore, so don't bother trying to access them. However, VanessaE herself did talk about it in IRC:
http://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2019-06-10

I really hope that this will not be an eternal problem, but I can easily see it becoming one:
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Linuxdirk » Sun Oct 27, 2019 13:38

Inocudom wrote:No wonder you haven't been making any YouTube videos lately. It's hard to get good footage with OBS Studio when the game you are recording is so badly optimized that the resulting fps ends up being like a slideshow

Runs perfectly fine here. 1080p60 videos are no problem at all. Game runs perfectly fine with 60 FPS if vsync is enabled.
 

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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Mon Oct 28, 2019 04:41

It looks like OBS Studio was at fault for that problem, since I don't seem to have that issue anymore. How did I come to that conclusion? Look below:
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6gCmTknA6E
I just made another Minetest video. I hope it shows why this game needs better GPU support before it can even hope to ever use Vulcan. Any thoughts?
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by Inocudom » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:42

Lately in the screenshots topic:
voxelproof wrote:
Inocudom wrote:Better start taking Vulcan support seriously if you intend to make that official.


I have very mixed feelings about adding highly realistic gfx to games like Minecraft or Minetest. Surely, if implemented properly, it would make gaming experience much more engaging and impressive, however this kind of somewhat abstract geometric environment don't necessarily need going in that direction - after all the worlds rendered by these games aren't meant to be photorealistic, and that's the point. And any improvement of this kind would probably mean that players would need to upgrade their hardware, which isn't in line with keeping this project available for all users whether they have top gfx card or not. Btw I play MT 5.0 an a laptop whithout gfx card and it runs very smoothly.

It's a problem a little similar to remaking old classic cartoons as 3d movies. If you are able to make perfect use of technology and have moreover a large team of highly skilled and talented specialists and artists, the results would be astounding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbYO16VsfQ4

(In my opinion Looney Tunes 3D are by far the best computer-rendered 3D cartoons ever made, surpassing even the Ice Age series). However if you don't have resources to tackle such ambitious task, it's really better to stick to the more modest aims of improving performance within well known format.

rubenwardy wrote:
Inocudom wrote:Better start taking Vulcan support seriously if you intend to make that official.


Again, vulkan support isn't needed for simple graphical effects like reflections, and isn't a silver bullet to fix all our problems

Just moving that discussion to this topic... But yeah, if Minetest doesn't even support OpenGL all that well, then I guess Vulcan won't do it much good. By the way:
Inocudom wrote:It looks like OBS Studio was at fault for that problem, since I don't seem to have that issue anymore. How did I come to that conclusion? Look below:
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6gCmTknA6E
I just made another Minetest video. I hope it shows why this game needs better GPU support before it can even hope to ever use Vulcan. Any thoughts?

Still waiting for your thoughts on what is shown in that video.
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Re: Vulcan For Minetest Would Be A Good Thing

by FreeGamers » Tue Oct 29, 2019 05:41

You see, this very serious issue gives new people the right to think your game is trash.


I run Minetest everyday with an Intel UHD620. For me it runs very well. I've seen it run well with acceptable performance on Intel HD3000, HD4000. I have players that run the game on Core 2 Duo mobile CPU's without any issues. I think graphical performance is acceptable from what I've experienced. I'm sure things can be improved but only with productive efforts and conversation.

Maybe if you're having issues with Minetest, that gives people the right to think that your computer is trash.

I'm kidding of course... But there are a lot of variables with GPU drivers and graphic library API's that if you're trying to figure out what is wrong with your system you should include some more information and a FPS counter at the very least. I did see some tearing in your video. Plus, encoding video and using OBS while playing will surely affect things as well. For Linux, I found NVIDIA performance with a 1650 GTX was worse than Intel UHD in desktop performance because there was just so much screen tearing due to the drivers for Xserver. And of course there is absolutely no Wayland support. NVIDIA is trying to development a new buffer system for Linux or Wayland last I heard.

does not have a consistent and efficient graphics pipeline, and splits the development time between two different graphics pipelines (both of which suck atm).


That is probably the best response you'll get about this for now. This project is worked on by volunteer developers. I'm sure things may improve with time. I find performance quite acceptable even on low end machines. Even so there are plenty of options to tweak performance.
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