Why are ores so far down?

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thomz92
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Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

Hi all,

If I understand the Minetest wiki correctly, diamond ores can't be found until -1024y. That's more than 10x as deep as minecraft! Does anybody know why this is? I understand Minetest world are cubic and much deeper, and that's great - but why make some of these ores so hard to get in survival mode?

Mese ore is maybe more useful than diamond ore (if you have "Mesecons" mod), but even that can't be found until -512y.

https://wiki.minetest.net/Ores

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pampogokiraly
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by pampogokiraly » Post

I don't really know... and i actually don't really like how it is right now :/
Some of them enjoys mining but getting up and down without mods is really boring and takes too much time :P

In my opinion we should be able to get the ores quicker but, it needs to be more common the down you go!
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Chrysolite Azalea » Post

You can use v6 mapgen as an alternative. I use it, it's very good in ore generation!

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

thomz92 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:07
but why make some of these ores so hard to get in survival mode?
prehaps because its survival mode its meant to be tough ? .
I have only 1 diamond and I did not even mine it myself .a goblin dropped it after i beat its brains out . going down deep is fine its coming back up when someone has pinched the rungs of the ladder is the problem .
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Krock
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Krock » Post

Requested in https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1168
Changed in https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2107

Please feel free to comment on former issue showing your disagreement with the request.
All mapgens but v6 use these new ore distributions.
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thomz92
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

Thanks Krock. I read both sides of the issue and I think there were good points on both sides. I was asking because I installed the Bedrock2 mod, and was trying to decide where to set the y limit. I liked in Minecraft having the feeling of reaching rock bottom.

I personally have never mined past probably -300 or so, so it was a surprise to me to find out that mese and diamonds were just starting at around -1000. This probably does allow longer game play, but I think it would be nice to be able to edit it.

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Festus1965 » Post

because minetest is not mine-craft,
like I am not you
and so things are different

so the answer is : our programmers decided to make things not so baby easy ?
Minetest has no future

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Hume2 » Post

In MTG, there are no challenging mobs or anything like that in caves. So the only way to make the ores harder to reach was to move them deeper. And we are discussing the dullness of MTG again.
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 05:54
In MTG, there are no challenging mobs or anything like that in caves. So the only way to make the ores harder to reach was to move them deeper. And we are discussing the dullness of MTG again.
There are now as i modified MTG to put mobs down there in the caves . but i doubt if the hardcore mode i have created is to everyones taste .
should i release my version of MTG as a fully fledged game and put my name to it ?.
I do not think so as the community created it . they supplied a base game and a huge range of mods to tailor the game to my taste .all i did was cobble then together and change a few lines of code here and there , I should not take any credit for that .
so once agian the dullness you perceive is you failure to understand how gamers modify games you just want a ready meal handed to you on a plate .
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thomz92
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 05:54
In MTG, there are no challenging mobs or anything like that in caves. So the only way to make the ores harder to reach was to move them deeper. And we are discussing the dullness of MTG again.
Makes sense, although I'm not entirely sure it adds as much interest as it does difficulty. Everybody's perception on that is different I'm sure, but again, it would be nice to be able to modify ore spawning to taste.

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

thomz92 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 13:11
Makes sense, although I'm not entirely sure it adds as much interest as it does difficulty. Everybody's perception on that is different I'm sure, but again, it would be nice to be able to modify ore spawning to taste.
seems you can do exactly that

sorcerykid wrote:
"Assuming you are in minetest_game, you need to edit default/mapgen.lua. Look for the "Register Ores" section.
The depth of each ore can be specified as range of y_min to y_max and the probability as clust_scarcity. Add multiple registrations for every ore (three to four for better results) and overlap the depths for a more realistic distribution."
viewtopic.php?t=16865
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thomz92
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 13:40
seems you can do exactly that
Well that sounds pretty easy. It would be even easier in-game though :) I'll have to check it out, thanks!

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by paramat » Post

thomz92 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:07
diamond ores can't be found until -1024y. That's more than 10x as deep as minecraft!
Comparisons to MC are invalid =) The reason ores are so ridiculously shallow in MC is because MC has a tiny world height.
If MC world height was larger the ores would be deeper.

Ore depths in Mapgen V6 have not changed. One of the reasons that the other mapgens have deeper ores is that a few years ago they were given '3D noise' tunnels that travel downwards long distance, it is quite easy to walk to a deep depth along one with almost no mining.

Even in Mapgen V6, digging to y = -1000 is not much of a challenge, i did that only a few days into playing MT.

thomz92
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

paramat wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 00:05
Comparisons to MC are invalid =) The reason ores are so ridiculously shallow in MC is because MC has a tiny world height.
If MC world height was larger the ores would be deeper.
If you say so :) For me, it's just hard to justify it in survival mode, because in Minetest game, you don't NEED anything down there in order to survive. You don't need weapons, or better tools, or anything of the sort.

Of course, you WANT those things in order to create, but if the work to fun ratio is too high for you, you quit. All I'm advocating for is a way to change it to suit your preferences in-game :)

Fortunately, I can create my own mapgen even if nobody else likes it. Go Minetest!

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Hume2 » Post

thomz92 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 00:58
Fortunately, I can create my own mapgen even if nobody else likes it. Go Minetest!
Actually, all you need to is change the ores depth in minetest_game, you don't need to create another mapgen for that.
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thomz92
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by thomz92 » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 07:54
Actually, all you need to is change the ores depth in minetest_game, you don't need to create another mapgen for that.
Right! That's what I meant :)

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runs
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by runs » Post

I feel the same way. It's cool that Minetest has great depths (no "limit"), but I prefer something more limited like Minecraft. I mean, MTG should limit this, 256-512. Why 32,000 blocks if it's always the same thing? What is the challenge of digging and digging?
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TenPlus1
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by TenPlus1 » Post

This is why we need proper biome layering so we can add dimensions to the world at set height e.g. moon realm, nether etc. without the need for floatlands, only then can we make proper use of the 31,000 limit above and below :)

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GayJesus
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by GayJesus » Post

Force setting ore so deep sucks. Maybe the user doesn't want a map over 1000 nodes = no ore.

"proper biome layering"
so long as not forced on users. for example I used cave realms and that mod allows to easily choose the depth that it activates.
More choice and less forced.

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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Astrobe » Post

I think MTG is kind of prisoner of some Minecraft-isms - although I guess you don't want MTG to be too different from MC in order to be friendly with MC players coming to MTG.

In MTG, there's no hostile mob so the only enemy of the player is himself or herself (mobs are planned, but I suspect the PEGI3 rating goal excludes hostility) - that is the only way they can lose HP is from making mistakes like falling, drowning or being caught in a lava flood they caused themselves.

Mining is strongly tied to lighting. How difficult it is to get light determines how difficult it is to mine. I think it is worth stating something that obvious, because sometimes obvious things - like why apples do fall - are overlooked.

I love the sometimes crazy, sometimes beautiful landscapes the mapgens can generate, so I find it a waste that players are ""forced"" to vertical exploration and to live a dwarf's life. Oceans are underused too.

I think it would be interesting to break free from the "go deeper and deeper" game mechanic by making ores more scarce but present at all level (less "interesting" biomes can have larger clusters). It provides a better balance between vertical and horizontal exploration. Even oceans become more interesting, as players can dive and look for ores.

This makes the game easier so you have to compensate a little: torches have to be removed. They can easily be replaced by coal blocks that can be ignited (as per the "fire" mod present in MTG). It coasts a little something (flint-and-steel tool wear) and you can easily make it cost as little more by returning only eight coal lumps when digging a coal block.

Another thing one can do is to make red mushrooms glow a little, so they can be used as a fallback light source. As these mushrooms are poisonous by default, they are also a little dangerous because it can happen that you eat one by accident when you place and pick them often.

The Mese lamp/lampost can stay as an expensive light source which is also the only available light source to explore flooded caves and dungeons.

The removal of torches also makes underground lava lakes very interesting, because they provide free light. The game "Hades revisited" is a good example of how one can use lava with almost zero additional mod.

So, 3 easy changes to make MTG different from MC but not too different and give it a more player-friendly progression curve (easier at the start, more difficult later):
  1. more scarce ores but available at all levels, with some cluster size/density variations to make some biomes more attractive. Perhaps make coal a bit less common.
  2. remove torches and make red mushrooms glow
  3. lava lakes closer to the surface.

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Hume2
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by Hume2 » Post

Alternative solution might be adding more ores and more challenges while getting deeper. I think, each 100m should come with another challenges. One shouldn't succeed easily in the deeper layer before conquering the layer above.
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Re: Why are ores so far down?

by joe7575 » Post

Why are ores so far down?
To make mods like gravelsieve, techpack, techage, and others make sense :D
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