Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

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Zughy
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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by Zughy » Post

Fine, before I start with philosophical topics nobody wants to hear about:

can we have a Matrix official blessing, providing an alternative to the ones coming from Discord with the hope they could approach free software, and also being consistent with the message behind Minetest?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by Lone_Wolf » Post

Just peeked at Element and it looks like it's a lot nicer and easier to use than any IRC client I've ever touched.

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Re: Proposal: migrate from IRC to Element

by Quiark » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 08:02
v-rob wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 20:14
I would migrate from IRC to Element if everyone else migrated too.
Is this “Element” thing open source and can it be accessed from command line on a remote server connected to via SSH and can the client be run as service or in a tmux session? (This is no made-up example, this is how I accessed IRC using irssi running on a server.)
This way of using IRC exists to overcome IRC's shortcomings (such as not keeping messages for you). Modern chat services don't have these issues, they handle it for you. You can connect to your account any time from any place (and in the case of Matrix, using multiple different clients).

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Re: Proposal: migrate from IRC to Element

by Linuxdirk » Post

Quiark wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 01:19
You can connect to your account any time from any place (and in the case of Matrix, using multiple different clients).
I prefer connecting to my accounts from one single place using one single client.

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Re: Proposal: migrate from IRC to Element

by Yvanhoe » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 08:02
Is this “Element” thing open source and can it be accessed from command line on a remote server connected to via SSH and can the client be run as service or in a tmux session?
The Element client is web-based, so no but Matrix, the protocol it uses has CLI clients made for it:
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/weechat-matrix

As an IRC old timer I love the flexibility of a simple, published, human-readable protocol, but let's face it, IRC misses a few features. Give Matrix a try and a bit of love! Hopefully it will be one day able to displace the "feature rich" proprietary solutions.

Linuxdirk wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 05:13
I prefer connecting to my accounts from one single place using one single client.
No my dude. In 2020 you are supposed to devote a screen and 8 cores to run all the clients and tabs your social circle uses! /s

Yes I miss pidgin too...

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by twoelk » Post

".. from one single client" ?
actually I hate software that is bound to having to use one single device.
I love to use whatever device I come along and often use several different clients to connect to the same service.

so extreme portability, running from one folder, as few changes as possible to the host system and the possability to use whatever client runs on the specific hardware I happen to have at hand with some alternativ solutions to navigate around whatever problems might pop up, that's what I have learned to prefer but then again that's my personal environment, constantly having to work on different ever changing setups ... and by the way I'm on the other hand no great fan of clouds or all to slim clients because most things should always also work offline (in communications at least to some degree like browsing local archives). I actually do have versions of wikipedia on an usb stick when I travell.

as to the topic:
keep IRC !!
but open up as many bridges as the at the moment ever changing "modern" newest gadgettery needs. Only the furure will show what is here to stay and as such the minetest community should stay open for new trends and connect to them ... and the next hype ... and to the one after that ... and to whatever follows that ... etc

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by v-rob » Post

Zughy wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 21:46
Fine, before I start with philosophical topics nobody wants to hear about:

can we have a Matrix official blessing, providing an alternative to the ones coming from Discord with the hope they could approach free software, and also being consistent with the message behind Minetest?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
Missed this earlier. I've seen that the Matrix <-> IRC bridge seems to work and doesn't affect IRC negatively at all, so I would say yes unless anyone can raise any objections for why not to make it official. I don't see any reason not to.

A GitHub issue is probably the place to actually get this stuff voted on by the core devs. AFAIK, very few core devs regularly view the forums or more than skim topics like these. (Personally, I think that the forums are the most important place of communication Minetest has, which is why I regularly look through it.)
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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by Lone_Wolf » Post

I'm fine with Matrix having an official blessing.
I'm against removing the Discord bridge though and would appreciate it if the Discord could get an official blessing too

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by eyekay » Post

I don't think that the Discord bridge should be removed. Why? Either we can go with having Discord: a free software which everyone uses and is not, well, evil company backed, or we can use something which no one uses (element) only
Neither should be forced
We will lose a huge portion of the community without Discord
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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by Lone_Wolf » Post

eyekay wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 02:58
We will lose a huge portion of the community without Discord
There would just be an unofficial Discord like there is right now

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by Zughy » Post

eyekay wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 02:58
and is not, well, evil company backed
Grey area, and it profiles people. But yeah, I agree with Linuxdirk, damage is done and now can't be revoked without cutting off people from the chat; as far as it can matter, I changed title (again)
v-rob wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 00:41
A GitHub issue is probably the place to actually get this stuff voted on by the core devs
GitHub is a mess already and this is more "meta" than engine related, hence my decision. I think it's more of a forum discussion
v-rob wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 00:41
which is why I regularly look through it
and I appreciate that a lot :)

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by Fixer » Post

IRC is cool, but I see appeal of matrix(or whatever it is analog of discord)/discord(tho better not depend on it), not gonna lie, it is easy to use, has features like displaying/hosting images/files, emojis, voice, yada-yada, it is like modern IRC (bloated yeah). We can't pretend like we are in 90-2000s, it is not zoomer only, even grown ups into retro started to give discord/whatever a try. It depends on if you really need those modern features, for some general text + links to external sites are ok, IRC webchat seems to be fine as well and requires no registering.

Update; I'm not picking sides there, just saying IRC and matrix have different capabilities, depends if there is a demand for more advanced solution like matrix...

P.S. Tbh it feels like we will end up with IRC (via web/or client) and bridge to unofficial Discord/Matrix rooms, so it will be accessible to general Discord/Matrix population. Aka like it is now
Last edited by Fixer on Wed Oct 21, 2020 17:02, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Proposal: migrate from IRC to Element

by Fixer » Post

paramat wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 22:24
Celeron55 recently wrote on IRC that migrating from IRC is 'unthinkable', so the decision has been made.
Does he even participate in minetest in any way or form? I think it is just his opinion.
Last edited by Fixer on Wed Oct 21, 2020 15:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by Linuxdirk » Post

Fixer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 13:28
[…] it is easy to use, has features like displaying/hosting images/files, emojis, voice, […]
This is equally true for IRC except VoIP. It just depends on the client.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by rubenwardy » Post

celeron55 is contactable via PM and for admin tasks, but he's not active otherwise

I last tried Matrix 3 years ago, the client was called riot and the matrix.org home instance was very very laggy. I wasn't impressed by Riot or the lag. I imagine that's better now. Can anyone recommend a home instance to try out?

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by Zughy » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 15:26
Can anyone recommend a home instance to try out?
Sure do, this is privacytools.io's (open the link, it's not the link): https://www.privacytools.io/services/chat/

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by freshreplicant » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 15:21
Fixer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 13:28
[…] it is easy to use, has features like displaying/hosting images/files, emojis, voice, […]
This is equally true for IRC except VoIP. It just depends on the client.
I humbly suggest that as the discussion has evolved and the thread title has changed twice now to reflect the evolving discussion, what IRC can do with various clients is off topic. The discussion is no longer about replacing IRC, nor is it about whether IRC is better than Matrix or vice versa. From my understanding, the thread is now about recognising the Minetest Matrix an official part of the community.

The IRC is official and it has been established that there is no desire to have it go anywhere (same for the Discord bridge), so people who only want to use IRC will still be able to use it. Some users have made comparisons to IRC to underline why they use Matrix, that is their personal preference. Fact of the matter is, there's members of the Minetest community that just prefer Matrix, 'wrong' or not. Maybe a 'Matrix vs IRC' thread can be created in one of the off-topic forums for those interested in that debate.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by Linuxdirk » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:26
The discussion is no longer about replacing IRC, nor is it about whether IRC is better than Matrix or vice versa.
Then people should stop discussing those things.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by freshreplicant » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:30
freshreplicant wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:26
The discussion is no longer about replacing IRC, nor is it about whether IRC is better than Matrix or vice versa.
Then people should stop discussing those things.
Agreed!

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by Linuxdirk » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:31
Agreed!
No, you don’t get it. People are discussing those things no matter what a freshman says.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by freshreplicant » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:32
freshreplicant wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 16:31
Agreed!
No, you don’t get it. People are discussing those things no matter what a freshman says.
Just my two cents, Linuxdirk. I think it could be productive to reframe the discussion and split the topics if necessary. Never said you can't disagree.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by v-rob » Post

Mmm, actually, I just thought of something. If Matrix is official, then we're going to need some official moderators for it, and that will take some discussion. Letting it go unmoderated sounds like a dangerous proposition.
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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC

by benrob0329 » Post

I am already a moderator in #minetest-hub (for what that's worth), have managed this and several other chat rooms before on several different platforms, and am a moderator in the Unofficial Discord. I feel that I at least somewhat qualify to continue to manage it, although any help from "more official" project moderators is appreciated.
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Re: Proposal: migrate from IRC to Element

by celeron55 » Post

paramat wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 22:24
Celeron55 recently wrote on IRC that migrating from IRC is 'unthinkable', so the decision has been made.
Please stop pulling opinions branded as mine out of your ass. I've never said that referring to anything else than Discord.

As for the actual topic here: I think Matrix is definitely a better idea than Discord. However, as Matrix supports connecting to IRC and not the other way around, everyone can start using it by themselves and simply join the existing IRC channels.

If the day ever comes that IRC can be completely abandoned, we'll see what the best FOSS platform is then.

Maybe listing the Matrix community as official would be a good idea. I'm not in a hurry though. Matrix is relatively new at least in a usable form.

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Re: Proposal: make Matrix official as much as IRC and remove Discord bridge

by celeron55 » Post

Zughy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:33
But yeah, I agree with Linuxdirk, damage is done and now can't be revoked without cutting off people from the chat; as far as it can matter, I changed title again)
That's not true. The unofficial discord existed before the bridge was made and almost nobody has moved to Discord due to it. On the contrary, it shows IRC to the Discord crowd who were never reading it before.

Removing the bridge is totally doable, but keeping it makes sense in a situation where most of the real time chat already happened on Discord before the bridge was created. A split community isn't beneficial to MT.

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