Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

Termos
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Termos » Post

Lone_Wolf wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 15:39
This seems to be mainly fueled by your anger over the collision PRs. If it makes you feel any better: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/is ... -714572073
You must be reading stuff into this, that's just the way I see things and I've got a bad habit of speaking my mind now and then.
Lone_Wolf wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 15:39
MT just needs to tie its shoes properly so that it doesn't trip up when it has a lot of walking to do.
That's difficult to do without the head though, no way to coordinate the hands.
For now it's shaking its foot. Unlikely to get the job done but not impossible.
Lone_Wolf wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 15:39
It's not hostile if pretty much everyone agrees development is dead. But most of the community don't agree on that, so creating a new fork is a hostile act to them.
Most of them? I doubt that, but well, some are weird like that, what can we do.

Among the many demanding qualities required to be able to pull off a fork,
the ability to shrug off some internet hate is probably the easiest to meet.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by runs » Post

Making a fork is very difficult, a lot of the old equipment should go into the fork. The problem is that there are very few developers! Who would make a fork then?

There have been examples in Minetest in the past of one or two who tried, and of course failed.

The LibreOffice/OpenOffice example is different, it had a very strong base and the best ones got away. OpenOffice died, well, it's dead and not buried.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

a dying project, (not to say Minetest is dying, but it's seen better days)
Image
Among the many demanding qualities required to be able to pull off a fork,
the ability to shrug off some internet hate is probably the easiest to meet.
Fork this, Fork that...

Look...

If "Forking" is the best thing you forkers can think of, then forking go for it. Enjoy wasting your forking time forking through every single line of code in this project. Which many have forking failed to do so.
You'll only inevitably pile up the forking Minetest's fork graveyard.

I don't forking care anymore regarding to these forking cahoots, I'm tired of reading about this pile of fork crap. If that's what you choose to forking do, fork it, if it makes you happy.

Good luck on finding a forking group that can forking help you with that.
Making a fork is very difficult, a lot of the old equipment should go into the fork. The problem is that there are very few developers! Who would make a fork then?
Forks have been tried many times over the years for minetest, and runs is correct. We don't have alot of devs here + you need to look for people who shares your vision if you want to succeed. Which i humbly doubt that will ever happen based on current statistics.


My suggestion, make a game engine yourself from scratch instead. and see if you can win the hearts of members in this community.
which many have not done yet.

Image
Last edited by emperor_genshin on Fri Oct 23, 2020 01:26, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by LibraSubtilis » Post

I am not as involved as many of you, but I like Minetest and think it is already a good piece of software.
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 22:01
Let's be the community. Complaints are welcome, when accompanied by solutions. Ideas are great, but are only useful with prototypes. Words are cheap. Action, not words, gets things done!
I personally think that would be efficient, but it isn't always possible. In those cases it is a good idea to think about a more general solution. The small amount of time the core devs are able or willing to dedicate to minetest seems to be the biggest source of dissatisfaction. The question I am asking myself is: Is it possible to move more programming out of the core to the Lua side, so that core devs don't have too many tasks and content creators are able to creator more content without being dependent on the core devs?
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Big_Caballito » Post

LibraSubtilis wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 19:48
Is it possible to move more programming out of the core to the Lua side
Lua is a lot slower than compiled machine code, in theory, there are a lot of features that could be done in Lua, but it would be a lot slower.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Jordach » Post

Mantar wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 17:47
emperor_genshin wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 18:06
That's all i'm hearing right now.
I don't know who you're listening to then, because that's not what I said, nor anyone else that I noticed here. A good fork can revitalize a dying project, (not to say Minetest is dying, but it's seen better days) it's not by definition either harmful or hostile.
Forks only work when the project has been long dead and abandoned by the original or main developers. Minetest has not, and will continually outlive radical "forks".

Freeminer was the closest to such an event (like ever, but only managed about a year's life) but eventually the changes from Freeminer got absorbed into the main Minetest branch.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by hoodedice » Post

If anyone wants to "fork" minetest, my personal opinion is to just rewrite it from scratch in a more modern toolkit like godot.
Forking the minetest that is based on irrlicht is useless IMO because you're just going to inherit the same weaknesses and design decisions of irrlicht-minetest, in which case, why bother?
If you also decide to fork, you need to be prepared that no minetest user would follow you, and that you might have to work on it alone for a long time before it picks up any steam.
Anyone sane or with a life to live knows that forking is going to be pretty useless, so fix what you already have.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by parasite » Post

Instead of thinking about a fork, you could think about a paid audit. Hire someone who will review each line of the code, analyzing the code according to the guidelines made for that purpose. I think the patreon service could be helpful here, if preparation of the code to replace the irrlight with something better would be one of the key audit results. That is just an example...

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Mantar » Post

hoodedice wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:43
just rewrite it from scratch
Is kind of a newbie coder trap. It sounds good. It seems like an enticing idea, because nobody likes dealing with bugs or untangling spaghetti code. Yet it's almost always better to refactor a working codebase than to build a whole new thing, ESPECIALLY if you're short on manpower. Most projects never get to a usable state so you have to be pretty lucky and special to do it twice in a row, and the risk of burnout as you hack away at something that doesn't work yet is high, and it's hard to attract any other devs to an open source project until you've got something useful and worthwhile.

Over the years I've seen lots of projects die, and "we're going to rewrite it from scratch" has been the death knell of so many I've long since lost count.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by runs » Post

hoodedice wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:43
If anyone wants to "fork" minetest, my personal opinion is to just rewrite it from scratch in a more modern toolkit like godot.
Forking the minetest that is based on irrlicht is useless IMO because you're just going to inherit the same weaknesses and design decisions of irrlicht-minetest, in which case, why bother?
If you also decide to fork, you need to be prepared that no minetest user would follow you, and that you might have to work on it alone for a long time before it picks up any steam.
Anyone sane or with a life to live knows that forking is going to be pretty useless, so fix what you already have.
No new idea under the sun... A recent Minetest reimplementation from scratch:

https://github.com/oilboi/Crafter
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 16:42
hoodedice wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:43
If anyone wants to "fork" minetest, my personal opinion is to just rewrite it from scratch in a more modern toolkit like godot.
Forking the minetest that is based on irrlicht is useless IMO because you're just going to inherit the same weaknesses and design decisions of irrlicht-minetest, in which case, why bother?
If you also decide to fork, you need to be prepared that no minetest user would follow you, and that you might have to work on it alone for a long time before it picks up any steam.
Anyone sane or with a life to live knows that forking is going to be pretty useless, so fix what you already have.
No new idea under the sun... A recent Minetest reimplementation from scratch:

https://github.com/oilboi/Crafter
Correction:

Based on what I heard from oilboi, he's making more of a new game engine made in Java similar to Minecraft beta from scratch (not a minetest re-implementation, just another minecraft clone game engine written in "lazy" Java).
Last edited by emperor_genshin on Sat Oct 24, 2020 00:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

parasite wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 13:39
Instead of thinking about a fork, you could think about a paid audit. Hire someone who will review each line of the code, analyzing the code according to the guidelines made for that purpose...
If only c55 had HR, which he obviously does not have HR set for his core devs.
So this is out of the question.

Like Jordach and rubenwardy once stated. Automation would be the only solution for reviewing code at this point.
It saves a lot of time if this was added.
parasite wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 13:39
I think the patreon service could be helpful here, if preparation of the code to replace the irrlight with something better would be one of the key audit results. That is just an example...
Even if Minetest had a patreon, Minetest will never move away from Irrlicht, it's been discussed too many times over the years, and rejected too many times.

A patreon however would boost morale for the dev team to continue maintaining the project and to push more features.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

So if anyone else is still unhappy and not pleased about Minetest depending on Irrlicht. then write your own game engine like what oilboi is doing and form your own community. oilboi is doing this because he is not pleased with Minetest's current performance issues.

A Fork right now is currently pointless since this project isn't dead nor abandoned, the project right now is currently just staggering from shenanigans within it's development and the lack of help from the community.

So if you have this kind of attitude towards the project then i suggest you to leave this place, as your behaviour isn't helping the project to move forward, just delays it from moving further.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Casimir » Post

[Referring to the original post, not the irrlicht discussion.]This is an old discussion and the main reason I created Voxelgarden. I was to lazy to deal with the cumbersome process for things that likely will get rejected. VG therefor was MTG but with the contributions I would have made to MTG. I hoped that people would go and copy them, some chages I made in VG eventually made it into MTG, but I think that most of them have just been reinventing the same things.
As a result I mainly ignored the engine and did my own thing and this it worked for me. But the problems in the core development are still the same.

I don't belief in effort. Sometimes it reads as if some people just have to make more effort - to be nicer, to be more focused on a road map, to engage more in the community, and so on. But effort only lasts so long as someone is willing to put it in, and that resource is limited. There is no use in blaming any particular people, the real problem is always institutional.

Some of the following points have already been mentioned. I just list them out again to make clear why they are important.

The IRC bubble - Myself and others already pointed this out years ago. Because everything happens in IRC, development is happening separate from the community. In order to participate, you have to "hang out" on IRC and pay attention to what is happening there. This demands a lot of time which not everyone is willing to invest. To get input on an issue or PR, you often have to go into IRC and draw peoples attention to it. Often issues get discussed, but the result never gets out of that bubble - and it's completely impractical to search the archives to find that information.

To many feature ideas - It's the beauty of Minetest that you can imagine everything. But that also leads to infinite ideas flooding in, impossible to sort or to find any direction in them. Many of the issues open on github are just ideas of that sort.
In VG I constraint myself by the categories bugs >> improvements >> features >> nice to have. I would only add improvements if all bugs have been fixed, only add features if all improvements on the list are done, and maintain the nice to have list to get a sense of which direction I want to head. As one can see from the open issues I'm not to strict with that rule, but it would be better if I where. So far it helped me to keep this project clean and maintainable.
For Minetest this would also allow to faster sort requests. You don't have to argue about every idea, for some it's enough to say "Yeah, that's a good idea. But . . . isn't really on our road map as of now. This is nice to have yet not a feature we would add any time soon."

No clear focus - Yes there are road maps and discussions and many plans on how to go forward. The problem isn't the lack of them, it's that there are to many. I don't suggest we should discard all but one, but change the process by how the road map is formed. The principle mentioned above does help in that regard, as it helps to sort ideas. For example there is the TODO, but aren't some points like the Voxel Area Entities a nice to have instead of concrete features people are working on? In the metaphor of a road map, it is just a list of places one mights to go someday, some closer, others further away, but no connection between them - no road.

An engine without games - Since MTG is in maintenance only mode, it is official that Minetest ships with no real games. MT could really be an engine for all types of games, from jump and run (see the failed attempt "Uforun") to RPG to RTS. The common answer is that there aren't good enough games to include. I do understand that we can't add Mineclone2 (the best one, in my opinion), but now there is Exile - which is genius and quite different from the Minecraft-style game, and there are several others that are popular.
It's a chicken-egg problem. As long as games aren't included in the release of the engine, game developers will have less motivation for their work or might loose interest and drop their project entirely (e.g. pixture). When included, then those games would also have more player and therefor more people willing to help with that game. But also, as long as the engine is limited to the classic voxel-build-survive type of game, the others types can not even start to develop. Game developers already try their part to push the boundaries and create good content, it just still seems that Minetest lacks the will to be more than an engine to only MTG.

When the problem is not about people, but about structure, then this has implications about a possible fork.
When you fork and just switch out the developers, then nothing will change and it will be a waste of time. However if Minetest is unable to address those problems and change its structures, then a fork could work - if it is very selfconscious about those structures, thinks hard about them and implements better ways to handle things.

There is also something about half a fork. One argument for not including more games in MT is that it's supposed to be an engine and therefor the game developer should release the game bundled with the engine. What about we take this argument seriously? Create a website, choose a better name than "Minetest" and release a bundle that includes several games and the engine patched with pull requests that didn't went into the official engine. How close the new thing then is to the original Minetest is variable. It could be exactly the same plus some games, or on the other extreme diverge as much as Freeminer did (but without changing the license please).
So if you have this kind of attitude towards the project then i suggest you to leave this place, as your behaviour isn't helping the project to move forward, just delays it from moving further.
This discussion has been going on for years. Just shutting up won't solve the problem. Many creative people already took your advice and left Minetest for ever. Their work is now missing, and that's really what delays the game from moving further.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

Casimir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:49
An engine without games - Since MTG is in maintenance only mode, it is official that Minetest ships with no real games.
The struggle of banishing MTG is strong, but core devs refuse to stop this X)
And you're right. this is a game engine. should be treated as one rather than a full game

MTG is inevitably delaying things on back end. But a few core devs don't want to hear it, which leads to issues.

If it's a game engine. i suggest to leave a simple small preset canvas as a game so new users can understand how to use Minetest's API, and never touch it again unless necessary (patches)
Casimir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:49
So if you have this kind of attitude towards the project then i suggest you to leave this place, as your behaviour isn't helping the project to move forward, just delays it from moving further.
This discussion has been going on for years. Just shutting up won't solve the problem. Many creative people already took your advice and left Minetest for ever. Their work is now missing, and that's really what delays the game from moving further.
I agree, But It's still going on a retarded limbo for many years already and we both know this, but what can we do when people are continuously getting upset and disagree over differences and opinions?

The only way is to talk about it. but will that solve everything?
+ Spoiler
But will this type of intake minimize certain excessive disappointment?
+ Spoiler
Last edited by emperor_genshin on Fri Oct 23, 2020 19:24, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by parasite » Post

emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:20
So if anyone else is still unhappy and not pleased about Minetest depending on Irrlicht. then write your own game engine like what oilboi is doing and form your own community.
This is the most childish what can be said. That means: Mommy if you don't like my sandals and no socks while I am standing in the snow in winter, go f** yourself and have a new baby. Adult man accepts criticism doesn't bully people who show him his problems. I might as well say that if you can't make your own kernel, you don't deserve to be a coder, use open source software and make mods for minetest.
emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:20
So if you have this kind of attitude towards the project then i suggest you to leave this place, as your behaviour isn't helping the project to move forward, just delays it from moving further.
Please, repeat that words to a mirror.
emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:01
If only c55 had HR, which he obviously does not have HR set for his core devs.
So this is out of the question.
I love that kind of answers: no because no, no, no, no. If that joke about HR was funny, that reply would at least have a humorous sense. There is nothing wrong to let the job be done by someone else, when the team is in black hole. People do that.
emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:01
Even if Minetest had a patreon, Minetest will never move away from Irrlicht, it's been discussed too many times over the years, and rejected too many times.
As far as I can understand, the only argument is that it would be too much work for "lazy" devs. I do not want to offend anyone, and that controversial word has quotation marks. The point is, there aren't any serious arguments, it seems that just an amount of work needed is like some kind of horror. I do not know if replacing irrlicht with something else is just a difficult or impossible thing, neither I will not assess it nor I will do that replacement. But I would probably pay for it. There is no arguments why Minetest can't be better. Anyway, irrlicht is just an example. Any complex project of serious code modification other than some cosmetic fixes of GUI or CMS making will be a good example here. However, Irrlicht is a well recognized problem among forum users and that problem can be use as base for a promotional campaign.
emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:01
A patreon however would boost morale for the dev team to continue maintaining the project and to push more features.
Yes. Of course. But I am skeptical. I'm guessing there wouldn't be too many people willing to give theirs $ to core devs just like that. Especially when it seems that core devs don't even want to do PR reviews, because it's a lot of work and they are "only volunteers" (or they are unfamiliar with engine code which PR wants to modify). Again, I do not want to offend anyone, I'm just summarizing problems by making a caricature of these problems and repeat what users feel in simple words. That unpleasant phrase does not express what I think, but it can be close to what others might think. My point is that that people know that if someone works "not good enough" without payment, then he or she will work "not good enough" when gets paid too. Therefore, if there is a problem with how core devs work (even if it has nothing to do with core dev themselves), asking for money won't help. Donors can, however, be attracted by a specific project, a specific goal. I think if you will announce that you want money to improve the minetest in that way and in that way (pointing to a specific solutions recognized among players), people might be interested.

This post is too long. My idea was that it would be a shame to make the community smaller and separated due to fork if there are other solutions that could be done. That is all.
Last edited by parasite on Fri Oct 23, 2020 18:36, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

parasite wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 18:18
emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:01
If only c55 had HR, which he obviously does not have HR set for his core devs.
So this is out of the question.
I love that kind of answers: no because no, no, no, no. If that joke about HR was funny, that reply would at least have a humorous sense. There is nothing wrong to let the job be done by someone else, when the team is in black hole. People do that.
Which is why people are ultimately thinking about making forks, but that idea had been tried so many forking times like a used condom and keeps failing because the project isn't really dead nor abandoned for that idea to succeed.

I highly doubt that c55 would consider hiring somebody to do that with pay. Go ask him that yourself. I bet he would flat out reject that idea.

Automation is the only thing that was stated on the table at the moment which makes sense to have.
Please, repeat that words to a mirror.
This is why I hate you all.
Last edited by emperor_genshin on Fri Oct 23, 2020 18:43, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by parasite » Post

[

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by parasite » Post

emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 18:24
I highly doubt that c55 would consider hiring somebody to do that with pay.
Me too. Especially since there is no one to manage such thing, there is no patron, no cool website with idea description and so on.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

Honestly I am getting really tired of delayed progress due to poor decisions being made and constant separations that the community is plotting as a result of these decisions.

I've been sucking it up for too long to the point that I just had enough of it.

The only helpful solution right now is to point out what's staggering development so that core devs know what to do to prevent further disappointment from building up. Since this is a community, we all need to accept that opinions are always getting in the way of things. so it's impossible to please every single member of this community, but we can minimize further disappointment by stating problems and come up with possible helpful solutions to please as many people as we can.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by parasite » Post

emperor_genshin wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 18:46
Honestly I am getting really tired of delayed progress due to poor decisions and constant separation that the community is doing.

I've been sucking it up for too long to the point that i just had enough.
I understand you.

However, I am thinking about what can help. Getting angry with the entire project, core devs, or community doesn't make sense - it's just anger and frustration, but misdirected. SARS-CoV-2 puts everyone on fire. There are some issues with PR reviews and some have troubles with communication to IRC-lovers devs, but that are not all things which define whole minetest project! When you don't see an immediate solution to a problem, instead of getting frustrated at everything, you can take care of some side smaller project (within minetest of course). Once you get into it, you won't have time to read all those stupid posts and just will find a time to give a break to yourself, cool down emotions, and find some good feelings with good job with that project. When you read all these complaints you may think the minetest is dying. But that's not true. Minetest is doing quite well. For example, new mods for "default game" are coming, games other than minecraft-like-experience are developed with some individual mods just for them. I'm sure that when I am writting this, someone is working on some new texture pack and someone else wants to make some nice video for youtube. Some experienced masters in our community suggest that today there are the same problems at the highest level, as was yesterday and neither the fork will help (though in some circumstances it could help) nor anything. Well, I say do not be fooled and do not believe that we are only complaining and the problems, even when are serious, are unsolvable, insurmountable. Nobody tells you to find a solution today, right now.

Let me give an example: recently I met a few people who create music and wanted to somehow enrich this or that minetest game with their songs. But nobody wants to add music to the game. These are large files and this is a problem. We thought then that it would be nice to have a CSM full of music and additional game sounds that would not be a problem for servers (because the music would be local, at the player's computer). Someone can explain me how musicians can do something like this? How those artists (musicans) could communicate with developers? How could this cooperation look like? What if these artists would like to spent more time and make more for the minetest?
Last edited by parasite on Fri Oct 23, 2020 19:29, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Lone_Wolf » Post

What was the OP about again? Should probably move this fork talk into a new topic or something
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

Lone_Wolf wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 19:13
What was the OP about again? Should probably move this fork talk into a new topic or something
Discussing about "Failures of Core Devs and the Needs of Content Creators" not "Minetest is dead, let's make a Fork!"
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Lone_Wolf » Post

Jordach wrote: [*] Code reviewing should be moved to more automated testing services. As there are many free plans that offer code coverage testing. Stop wasting developer eyeball time on reading text when they could be testing for issues.
+1 for this
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Zughy » Post

Hey there, time to bring some joy in here. By the same guy who started all this streak of topic, apparently.

Roadmap
Yes, it's happening, for real. Have a look here. It seems it'll become official within two weeks. Go say something if you think it's relevant, like I did

IRC bubble
Matrix is getting considered too. Celeron, Rubenwardy and Benrob have been working on it as you can see in the (still unofficial) Matrix community here: https://matrix.to/#/+minetest:tchncs.de

Linting
This has been discussed too on IRC (which I saw through my Matrix client, speaking of the devil)
parasite wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 13:39
Hire someone who will review each line of the code, analyzing the code according to the guidelines made for that purpose
I've been MarieKondoing the code, if that helps (1) (2). Yes, it's a mess. No, it's not impossible to clean up

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