Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by rubenwardy » Post

Casimir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:49
No clear focus - Yes there are road maps and discussions and many plans on how to go forward. The problem isn't the lack of them, it's that there are to many. I don't suggest we should discard all but one, but change the process by how the road map is formed. The principle mentioned above does help in that regard, as it helps to sort ideas. For example there is the TODO, but aren't some points like the Voxel Area Entities a nice to have instead of concrete features people are working on? In the metaphor of a road map, it is just a list of places one mights to go someday, some closer, others further away, but no connection between them - no road.
I am currently attempting to create a medium-term roadmap based on a poll in a GitHub issue. The current goals are "Rendering/Graphics improvements", "UI improvements", "Internal code refactoring", and "Entity/object improvements". You can read it here.

Voxel Area Entities is a very long-term wish that may never happen, which means that it's not a very roadmap item. celeron55's roadmap is good as a long-term guide, but not so much for immediate development.
Casimir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 17:49
An engine without games - Since MTG is in maintenance only mode, it is official that Minetest ships with no real games. MT could really be an engine for all types of games, from jump and run (see the failed attempt "Uforun") to RPG to RTS. The common answer is that there aren't good enough games to include. I do understand that we can't add Mineclone2 (the best one, in my opinion), but now there is Exile - which is genius and quite different from the Minecraft-style game, and there are several others that are popular.
It's a chicken-egg problem. As long as games aren't included in the release of the engine, game developers will have less motivation for their work or might loose interest and drop their project entirely (e.g. pixture). When included, then those games would also have more player and therefor more people willing to help with that game. But also, as long as the engine is limited to the classic voxel-build-survive type of game, the others types can not even start to develop. Game developers already try their part to push the boundaries and create good content, it just still seems that Minetest lacks the will to be more than an engine to only MTG.
Minetest won't ship without Minetest Game until a new mainmenu is created. A new mainmenu will present new users with a list of games on their first launch, allowing them to choose a game to download.

Here's my current prototype:

Image

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

parasite wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 19:09
Let me give an example: recently I met a few people who create music and wanted to somehow enrich this or that minetest game with their songs. But nobody wants to add music to the game. These are large files and this is a problem. We thought then that it would be nice to have a CSM full of music and additional game sounds that would not be a problem for servers (because the music would be local, at the player's computer). Someone can explain me how musicians can do something like this? How those artists (musicans) could communicate with developers? How could this cooperation look like? What if these artists would like to spent more time and make more for the minetest?
I would absolutely like bgm to be a thing for Minetest, but like you said "file size is too large" and some sound files may be unoptimized by their content creator(s) who created the media files in the first place, which creates media loading to stagger when new players are trying to connect to a game server.

But in the end, it ends up to be the content creator's fault for not optimizing the media file.
Last edited by emperor_genshin on Fri Oct 23, 2020 20:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 19:52
Minetest won't ship without Minetest Game until a new mainmenu is created. A new mainmenu will present new users with a list of games on their first launch, allowing them to choose a game to download.

Here's my current prototype:

Image
Neat and makes sense.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by hoodedice » Post

An engine without games - Since MTG is in maintenance only mode, it is official that Minetest ships with no real games...
I was about to bring up ruben's main menu re-design but ruben himself brought it up so that's neat. I'm personally interested in seeing game-defined main menus in minetest (with full control of theming and layout).

For managing feature requests, how about doing something similar to this?
https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/co ... t_by=votes
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Oil_boi » Post

This is why we can't have noice things
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by RedStateRambo » Post

Core Dizzy nee' ta strizzle review Pull Requests n merge PRs n delegizzle a yearly or quarterlizzle roadmap ta tha community; where serva operatizzles, gizzame authors n modda figure out where tha engine should be dirizzle. Issues go'n foward shizzay be uze' fo` bug reports onlizzle. Not Cizzore Developa who immediately shizzay down a convizzle tha moment they don't like tha idea or be too lazy ta C-to-tha-izzome up wit an actual argument. Anotha problem be #minetizzle n #minetest-hub: tha coo' kids clubs. By segregat'n normal usa frizzle tha Core Developa, n by institu'n a depressingly joyless channizzle cuz I put gangsta rap on tha map; normal usa hizzay no want or nee' ta interizzle wit Core Developa. Should Cizzy Developa go missing or inactizzle, they Core Developa role be stripped n returned ta "Active Contributizzle" status.

Content Crizzles be constantly rhymin' they cizzle on live serva, while Core Developa rarely even log onto multiplaya servers unless it's a PR they have to test. Core Shot callaz do not pizzy Minetest as a game engine that cizzan supply a theoretically infinite numba of vizzle powizzle experiences. But brutha, uze it as a test'n ground, instead of creat'n or pimpin' a game ta experizzle with the engine. Tha devtest built-'n game uze' by core developa be evidizzle of dis. Perfect on papa n 'n test'n. Not perfect 'n actual gameplay.

Anotha problizzle wit development be tha brutha insistizzle of backwards compatibility. Nobody wizzle ta maintain a 8 yiznear old stale mod whizzen there's quite literally much more productive th'n ta be done. Relax, cus I'm bout to take my respect. Leave compatibility ta witin one or two minor patches, thizzen it deprecated or obsoleted. Nizzay kiznept around like a fetid, fester'n zombie that won't be pizzay diznown as it a beloved pizzle.

There be evizzle cazes W-H-to-tha-izzere a Cizzore Dev doesn't evizzle know what it cizzy be uze' fo`, dizzle tha exact reasons bein wrizzle 'n tha Issue. Living young n wild n free !

Ta cizzle doggystyle:

[*] Cizzay Developa step down F-R-to-tha-izzom sippin' tha engine roadmap, n be delegated ta tha community poll a fizzay tizzles a yizzy ta G-to-tha-izzauge intizzle.
[*] GitHub Issizzles becomes a bug tracka exclusively let me holla at u: featizzle requests be ta be moved to tha content creator roadmap.
[*] Cizzy Developa mizzay be active witin tha community both on Instant Messag'n/forums or become a regular contributor. wat it do ?? Activity be measured by showing up a few times a wizzeek fo' sheezy.
[*] Ta previzzle stale Pull Requests, tha requirement fo` merg'n be reduced ta one one approval. Tha wizzle fizzle clos'n a Pull Request be 30 D-to-tha-izzays upside yo head. Core Devs cizzy independantly test it ta verify it W-to-tha-izzorks 'n bizzy devtest n exist'n games n serva. Ho-slappin' a M-to-tha-izzerge can be dizzle, but hizzle a wizzle before it expizzles n be merge' irregardless of problems.
[*] Cizzode weed-smokin' should be mizzle ta more autizzle test'n services. As there be many F-R-to-tha-izzee pliznans thizzay offa code covizzle test'n. S-T-to-tha-izzop wast'n developa eyeball time on reading text when thizzle cizzy be mackin' fo` issues.

Anizzle questions? (If it fizneels like a call'n out on bullshizzle, it probably be)

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by ElCeejo » Post

RedStateRambo wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 08:08
Core Dizzy nee' ta strizzle review Pull Requests n merge PRs n delegizzle a yearly or quarterlizzle roadmap ta tha community; where serva operatizzles, gizzame authors n modda figure out where tha engine should be dirizzle. Issues go'n foward shizzay be uze' fo` bug reports onlizzle. Not Cizzore Developa who immediately shizzay down a convizzle tha moment they don't like tha idea or be too lazy ta C-to-tha-izzome up wit an actual argument. Anotha problem be #minetizzle n #minetest-hub: tha coo' kids clubs. By segregat'n normal usa frizzle tha Core Developa, n by institu'n a depressingly joyless channizzle cuz I put gangsta rap on tha map; normal usa hizzay no want or nee' ta interizzle wit Core Developa. Should Cizzy Developa go missing or inactizzle, they Core Developa role be stripped n returned ta "Active Contributizzle" status.

Content Crizzles be constantly rhymin' they cizzle on live serva, while Core Developa rarely even log onto multiplaya servers unless it's a PR they have to test. Core Shot callaz do not pizzy Minetest as a game engine that cizzan supply a theoretically infinite numba of vizzle powizzle experiences. But brutha, uze it as a test'n ground, instead of creat'n or pimpin' a game ta experizzle with the engine. Tha devtest built-'n game uze' by core developa be evidizzle of dis. Perfect on papa n 'n test'n. Not perfect 'n actual gameplay.

Anotha problizzle wit development be tha brutha insistizzle of backwards compatibility. Nobody wizzle ta maintain a 8 yiznear old stale mod whizzen there's quite literally much more productive th'n ta be done. Relax, cus I'm bout to take my respect. Leave compatibility ta witin one or two minor patches, thizzen it deprecated or obsoleted. Nizzay kiznept around like a fetid, fester'n zombie that won't be pizzay diznown as it a beloved pizzle.

There be evizzle cazes W-H-to-tha-izzere a Cizzore Dev doesn't evizzle know what it cizzy be uze' fo`, dizzle tha exact reasons bein wrizzle 'n tha Issue. Living young n wild n free !

Ta cizzle doggystyle:

[*] Cizzay Developa step down F-R-to-tha-izzom sippin' tha engine roadmap, n be delegated ta tha community poll a fizzay tizzles a yizzy ta G-to-tha-izzauge intizzle.
[*] GitHub Issizzles becomes a bug tracka exclusively let me holla at u: featizzle requests be ta be moved to tha content creator roadmap.
[*] Cizzy Developa mizzay be active witin tha community both on Instant Messag'n/forums or become a regular contributor. wat it do ?? Activity be measured by showing up a few times a wizzeek fo' sheezy.
[*] Ta previzzle stale Pull Requests, tha requirement fo` merg'n be reduced ta one one approval. Tha wizzle fizzle clos'n a Pull Request be 30 D-to-tha-izzays upside yo head. Core Devs cizzy independantly test it ta verify it W-to-tha-izzorks 'n bizzy devtest n exist'n games n serva. Ho-slappin' a M-to-tha-izzerge can be dizzle, but hizzle a wizzle before it expizzles n be merge' irregardless of problems.
[*] Cizzode weed-smokin' should be mizzle ta more autizzle test'n services. As there be many F-R-to-tha-izzee pliznans thizzay offa code covizzle test'n. S-T-to-tha-izzop wast'n developa eyeball time on reading text when thizzle cizzy be mackin' fo` issues.

Anizzle questions? (If it fizneels like a call'n out on bullshizzle, it probably be)
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Jordach » Post

Oh look:
Image
Image
paramat needs to step down as a "leading" core dev or get yeeted from the project by force.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19056 Solar Plains Dev Server

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by rubenwardy » Post

I was the one who banned kilbith over two years ago, it was after repeated abuse despite warnings. This was with discussion with other moderators. kilbith was unbanned last year after he PMed to request it, under the understanding that he would be on good behaviour

There's really no need to bring this shit up again, flaming like this is completely unproductive

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by sfan5 » Post

I get the impression that the part of the community that predominantly active on Discord really loves drama and jumps at every opportunity to have it, no matter if it's justified, relevant or truthful.

From the screenshots I've seen at various occasions discussion there can get quite toxic too.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by GreenXenith » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 22:52
I get the impression that the part of the community that predominantly active on Discord really loves drama and jumps at every opportunity to have it, no matter if it's justified, relevant or truthful.

From the screenshots I've seen at various occasions discussion there can get quite toxic too.
Nope, just these guys. Can we please stop generalizing communities? I'm not sure what Discord has to do with any of this, anyway. Jordach, Genshin, and others, are established members of the Minetest community as a whole. I'm under enough fire as it is, please leave Discord out of this thread.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by runs » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 22:52
I get the impression that the part of the community that predominantly active on Discord really loves drama and jumps at every opportunity to have it, no matter if it's justified, relevant or truthful.

From the screenshots I've seen at various occasions discussion there can get quite toxic too.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

GreenXenith wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 23:46
sfan5 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 22:52
I get the impression that the part of the community that predominantly active on Discord really loves drama and jumps at every opportunity to have it, no matter if it's justified, relevant or truthful.

From the screenshots I've seen at various occasions discussion there can get quite toxic too.
Nope, just these guys. Can we please stop generalizing communities? I'm not sure what Discord has to do with any of this, anyway. Jordach, Genshin, and others, are established members of the Minetest community as a whole. I'm under enough fire as it is, please leave Discord out of this thread.
To be honest, I agree with Green. UMTD Discord has nothing to do with this. It's just a group of upset members of the minetest community who seem to be fed up with certain stuff related to development and actions from certain people.

Though respectfully I will admit for being upset and fed up with certain things that causes some nice PRs from constantly getting shut down.

And I agree with you rubenwardy, there shouldn't be continuous arguments related to bashing a certain member in the community.

I just hope that some of you are aware of the situation and hopefully reach a fair conclusion.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by CalebJ » Post

The Unofficial Minetest Discord is not irrelevant here in any respect, in fact, it seems to breed hatred against core devs for one reason or another. Furthermore, this whole topic was started by a discussion on the UMTD. So no - it is not irrelevant at all. What sfan said is absolutely true, and I know from experience.
sfan5 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 22:52
I get the impression that the part of the community that predominantly active on Discord really loves drama and jumps at every opportunity to have it, no matter if it's justified, relevant or truthful.

From the screenshots I've seen at various occasions discussion there can get quite toxic too.
Jordach started this topic ranting against paramat. Everyone does, because paramat actually takes action, whereas the rest of the core devs leave the 'dirty work' for him. This is not to slander the other core devs, they are all a valuable part of the team. But because paramat is so often beat up by users, usually coming out of the UMTD, I emphasize him in this comment.
Zughy wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 21:25
I must say, though, in his defense, he's the only one who's at least try doing something about it. Like, every "supported by core dev" label is his. He's been judged by his own actions, which is fine, but let's also remember others core devs usually ignore what's going on, meaning they can't be really blamed because they don't take a stand. Imho that's worse
Zughy is correct. Paramat is probably one of our most active core devs, if not the most active.
duane wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 02:09
More hyperbolic ranting?
This is the 'three-word' explanation of this whole thread.

Our dev team has made considerable progress in the last few weeks. Perhaps better progress than it did in the last three months before that! There has been a gigantic increase in contributions, a huge reduction of old PRs, including many merged, and a new dev member - v-rob (thank you!!). If you do not call this progress, you should stop complaining and have some fun doing nothing about these so-called problems.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Hume2 » Post

I have a suggestion.

Let's make a Minetest fork and let's merge all PRs there. Regardless of if it makes sense, regardless of how much buggy it is, regardless of any side effects it will have. And let's see how far we can go.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by runs » Post

Zughy is correct. Paramat is probably one of our most active core devs, if not the most active.
paramat from what I have seen, heard, know, is quite uncompromising and dictatorial in his views. He's "I think this, I mean, it's the right thing to do". And he's a stickler for everything, he's just too much of a stickler.

paramat, if you're reading me, it's not a personal attack, just an opinion about your personality in Minetest here. You should be a little more flexible.

But, well, everyone has defects, I have the most. :-D

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by pgimeno » Post

CalebJ wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 05:12
There has been a gigantic increase in contributions, a huge reduction of old PRs, including many merged, and a new dev member - v-rob (thank you!!).
*Two* new devs in fact. Pyrollo is the other one.

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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Lone_Wolf » Post

I dare say Discord is the most active platform Minetest has right now, especially counting the servers other than UMTD.
It's also chat based so words flow more easily.

Blaming this on the UMTD is wrong though. Hardly any 'bad activity' is happening in the UMTD. It's being vented somewhere else that isn't accessible to the public.

paramat isn't a bad dev. They seem to do less programming than the other devs but their reviews are usually pretty sensible.
They are definitely the most critical dev, and I think that causes a lot of frustration with them

@CalebJ I don't see you in the UMTD, I don't recall you being there for about a year now either. When did you see this discussion? Or did someone else tell you about it? Would be nice if you could DM me a link
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by CalebJ » Post

Lone_Wolf wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 15:52
paramat isn't a bad dev. They seem to do less programming than the other devs but their reviews are usually pretty sensible.
They are definitely the most critical dev, and I think that causes a lot of frustration with them

@CalebJ I don't see you in the UMTD, I don't recall you being there for about a year now either. When did you see this discussion? Or did someone else tell you about it? Would be nice if you could DM me a link
Absolutely agreed about paramat. He is extremely active regarding PRs and issues, and that means closing/being critical of many. Without his efforts, we would be backed up a lot and apparently complaining against some other dev...

What specific discussion? It's all over the UMTD - complaining against core devs & overall toxicity. You don't need to look hard for that kind of material. Sorry if I wasn't clear - My reference for 'started by a discord discussion', was basing off Jordach in his original message, which referenced several discord messages and said:
The Unofficial Discord practically lit up like a Christmas Tree with activity proves that something is clearly wrong. To quote a few users off of UD:

Image
Image
I have an alt at the UMTD which I hardly ever check on (I checked on it back when runsy started the thread against UMTD, to see if what he said was accurate), if that information is somehow useful to you.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by v-rob » Post

I can understand the complaints against paramat; he is more prone to disapproving things than most and is uncompromising. But, to be honest, this is kind of a strength for the team because we get a very different opinion. He frequently uses "No core dev support long term" and "Possible close", but these definitely have the effect of getting the other core devs' notices, whether that's an agreement or a disagreement with that decision. And, he definitely seems to be one of the most active when it comes to managing PRs and issues. So, he may do things we dislike or find annoying, but I think he is a helpful part of the team and doesn't deserve as much flack as he gets.
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Lone_Wolf » Post

CalebJ wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 20:38
It's all over the UMTD - complaining against core devs & overall toxicity.
The complaints are justified. Although the devs have been quite good about improving under it.
The toxicity (which I hardly see at all in UMTD off the top of my head) isn't local to the UMTD, it's actually quite tame there compared to the other places I've seen
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by emperor_genshin » Post

CalebJ wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 20:38
The Unofficial Discord practically lit up like a Christmas Tree with activity proves that something is clearly wrong. To quote a few users off of UD:

Image
Image
I have an alt at the UMTD which I hardly ever check on (I checked on it back when runsy started the thread against UMTD, to see if what he said was accurate), if that information is somehow useful to you.
This was the most ignorant reply I have ever seen.

Just because 2 posts were made in UMTD regarding to shenanigans has nothing to do with the entirety of the UMTD group being toxic. just shows that a few users who also uses IRC are just throwing anger out of fustration.

Quit throwing shade at a community that wasn't involved in this thread. point fingers at those individuals who initiated said thread (IE: Me, Jordach, Zughy, etc).

See what i did by stating "Individuals", it's a small list of members here.

Also "Experience" is a strong word for you to use, you're up against people who been here since 2011 - 2015
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philipbenr
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by philipbenr » Post

I would be curious to see the demographic of people who complain about the core devs and engine progress and if they've actually seriously developed or contributed to an open source project... I do not mean to gatekeep anyone having concerns about the project or trying to contribute, but I do think people are missing an important perspective if they have not been in that place but continue to throw flak...

Full disclaimer before I begin this post, I've seen very little of Minetest as of the past 3 years, but have recently taken an interest in it from a hobbyist point of view. But I thought I'd give my perspective on my limited understanding of how things are in the Minetest community and my more recent knowledge as a software engineer.

I see relatively little issue with the way that current Minetest pull requests operate. I think that if you are a one-time contributor or active contributor, you will have to work harder to get your code into the engine. You should have to prove to the developers that you are willing to contribute code that is robust enough to withstand changes or are dedicated enough to make sure that it works across time. If I was given a slightly miswritten code solution and implemented it, there would be repercussions in the future. Whether that be in terms of crashes, future incompatibilities, performance hits, it still will add up in the long run. And while one or two may be fine, Minetest is a project that does have to worry about scale. So erring on the side of caution should not be seen as a bad thing.

As another note, I think that the "good developers" that will put effort into good code continually should be promoted (as desired) to core developers, and from what small anecdotal evidence I've seen, this does happen. And those who put more effort in going from "bad code" to "good code" should have their attempts to open a pull request respected.

This is not to say that core-devs are infallible and write good code and make good decisions all of the time. I would put money on the contrary--that they will write bad code at some points and ignore things that are actually good. I'm sure that not all, or even majority of them are software engineers with industry background in C++ and 3D graphics. But they are the ones that are going to put a majority of the work into fixing problems in the future. And they will make mistakes some times based on how their day is going, what is happening in the rest of their lives, as this is a side project. This is what you get in open source communities.

To address the original post and, I think developer roadmaps would be helpful. Not a laid out waterfall project guideline, but more of an agile development "goalposts" for individual developers. So hopefully Rubenwardy's works are fruitful. I can see that he cares about where all this is going and wants things to get better, so props to him.

Also, Jordach's original comment about code testing really hits home after going through projects that require manual review on huge rewrites. Its a giant headache, and automated unit/acceptance testing is a Godsend in some situations. But I also know it is very hard to retroactively implement those tests, and being the dev that has to write those retroactively implemented tests is something I don't wish on anyone save masochists...

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CalebJ
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by CalebJ » Post

this is kind of a strength for the team because we get a very different opinion.
Yes, this is exactly what any good team needs - many opinions! If you have a team of 'yes-men' you have no team at all.
I have a suggestion.

Let's make a Minetest fork and let's merge all PRs there. Regardless of if it makes sense, regardless of how much buggy it is, regardless of any side effects it will have. And let's see how far we can go.
For the love of everything working, hell no. I get that this is an experiment that sounds intriguing if you've never done it or seen it before, but as someone who has seen projects take this turn, even on a small scale, it never ends well.
I believe Hume was joking, perhaps mocking the hatred displayed here against core devs. Without core devs, you are right, it would never end well!
The complaints are justified. Although the devs have been quite good about improving under it.
Constructive criticism is welcome and justified on any platform, of course including Discord. In fact, it should be encouraged. This thread has not been very constructive yet though, and we've already had several threads on this topic.

The haters always scream the loudest - no possibility for winning there. But none-the-less I really appreciate the amazing work the devs have done in the past few weeks - it's like nothing I've seen in minetest development since I found out about this project.
If you want realism, you're in the wrong place. Get off your mobile.

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Mantar
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Re: Failures of Core Dev and the Needs of Content Creators

by Mantar » Post

I have a suggestion.

Let's make a Minetest fork and let's merge all PRs there. Regardless of if it makes sense, regardless of how much buggy it is, regardless of any side effects it will have. And let's see how far we can go.
That would would be one seriously entertaining trainwreck! I'll bring the popcorn.

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