Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

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Zughy
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Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Zughy » Post

Hey there,

contrary to this, I'm not writing because it feels liberating. It's more something I think I should do to respect those people relying on what I've made.

What I've done for Minetest
Joined one year ago (March 27th), I'm the one who's created the possibility to make proper minigames on Minetest, the one behind the current #1 texture pack, a guy who's not a developer and who knew nothing about C++, yet who's currently top #50 in Minetest contributions (#41), the one behind the only proper minigames server (A.E.S.), the one who made Minetest Matrix possible through insisting and who pushed in the same way for roadmaps (ask rubenwardy). I've also made several mods learning Lua and I'm the one behind the whole Italian translation of the Modding Book. I was also working on redesigning the whole Minetest menu, but I never finished it. Anyway, I'm writing this especially to stop the "do that yourself!" type of comments.

Why I'm leaving
I'll try to be as short as I can, so:

1. Most core devs don't show interest in what the community does and, in general, they don't seem to listen
Now, I'm not saying they don't care, but if they do, they're having a hard time showing. I've met a lot of modders and players in my staying here, and I've never found someone who was happy about the relationship between core devs (if we exclude rubenwardy from core devs) and other people. Content creators in general feel ignored, and the companies we tend so much to complain about (e.g. Microsoft) show more interest to their community than Minetest does. Generally speaking, as a content creator myself, I always had the impression that they live in their ivory tower on IRC, and even if you try to reach out for them, it's a one-way relationship. The only way to be considered is to stomp your feet like children do. Which is sad and, most of all, requires a lot of energy and patience people don't always have.

2. Moderation is somehow non-existing, causing Minetest to be filled with bullies and weird people
So, practical example, there is this guy, Kilbith (or jp here on the forum), who is 32 yo and acts like an elitist, insulting people for free as an edgy kid. Nobody seems to care. He body-shamed Vanessa on IRC (not even in front of her), called sfan5 an arsehole whilst talking with him, and told runs that he should have never been born (the comment was later removed by a moderator, here on the forum). He also bullies people with not-so-explicit acts, like that PR that said "fsck_paramat.png" (another core dev) and, even if I'm definitely not on the same page of Paramat nor Runs, this is ridiculous and shouldn't be tolerable. Instead, I remember once celeron55 saying something on #minetest-dev on the lines of "he's too much valuable to ban him" (EDIT: I've checked, the actual sentence is "i sure hope paramat can take it because i guess we can't afford not accepting kilbith's PRs"). And to that I say, fuck that. There are also other weirdos on the forum posting OT religious things who don't receive much of an attention even if I know they've been repeatedly reported. I can also call out hecktest as "bullying" when it comes down to having a conversation, but he's definitely not at the same level of Kilbith.

3. There's no leadership nor common vision
Old story, but still relevant: celeron55 doesn't do much and there is no shared vision between core devs. One of them disappeared after a month (Pyrollo), leaving no trace, and they in general don't seem to have a strong relationship with each other. Which it'd make sense if it was a job, but it's not. As someone who had meetings every week with his MT team and who spends a lot of time to chit chat with them (or play together, shoot out the breeze in a call or whatever), I feel it kind of cold. Which doesn't sound a great thing. Also, speaking about common vision, do you remember the roadmap I've previously mentioned? It's been approved five months ago, but it's still there as a stuck PR, even if a Minetest version has been published in the meantime (a great occasion to made it official). What it really bugs me is that core devs often complained about all the issues and PRs they face, then they asked for solutions, and now that an actual solution is on the table, for a huge huge problem they've been having since years, they're kind of ignoring it.

4. Open code, close money
The only way to donate is through the website, and it's a PayPal donation link. I find it quite contradictory that a FOSS project has hidden donations. Donations that are not automatically split between every core dev, but that go directly in celeron55 pockets, the same guy who's not making a commit since 2017. Maybe he then splits those money with the rest of core devs (who are doing the 95% of the job), but the only truth here is that I can't tell. Looking at other projects like Veloren, Godot, Krita and Blender I honestly find it absurd. Also, talking about money, considering the 19k Godot makes every month, it comes without saying which engine is (or will be, in the long run) better to develop a voxel game. Money talks, ching ching bling bling, ya know.

5. Minetest is not trying to be a solid alternative to Minecraft
When I first joined, I wanted to help this project to become something big. I really don't like the idea of Hytale becoming the new black (by Riot Games, owned by Tencent, owned by China, which is a regime) or Microsoft keeping making tons of money out of Minecraft. But there is no real intention coming from core devs (who live in their own bubble, blah blah point 1 and 3), directly hitting content creators: the only new users are FOSS enthusiasts or people who wanted to crack Minecraft. For instance, if you have a server, you can spam it how much you like, but it'll still be limited in the niche Minetest decides to live in.

6. There's no way to make money out of Minetest
About the last point, let's say you want to make money out of your server or your contents: good luck, considering MT general public (people who are probably investing in other projects or people who didn't want to pay for the original MC). In a year of producing tons of quality contents and hosting a server, I've made 30€: all by a single donor. Luckily for me, the server was gifted, so I've actually earned something, but we know it doesn't usually work like this. I have a passion, great, but I already pay with my time and my efforts. I then make an investment, but if I have nothing in return, that's not helping at all.

-----

For the core dev who'll say "wrong", cherrypicking here and there
You regularly have some new topic here on the forum by some new guy complaining about the same exact things, so please... don't.

-----

Where all my contents will end
I'll leave them on my GitLab, so if you want to continue them, feel free to fork them. I'm sorry for the Italian comments in the code but my team and I were basically the only ones working on it and it sped up our process. Use a translator like DeepL and it should be totally fine.

Where my server will end
We'll probably keep it open for another month or so. Because then we're gonna need space (next point)

Where I will end
For the ones who ever joined my Minetest server (A.E.S.), we've started working on something like Block League but in non-blocky 3D, on Godot. This is a new adventure for all of us (I'll be the 3D modeller) as we're aiming to something big (but not big as in "burnout") and we'll post more info on our current Matrix MT channel (#minetest-aes:matrix.org). I'll probably edit my signature too here.

------

In conclusion
I don't want to shit on Minetest as, again, I've met a lot of of people and learnt a lot of new things. I think rubenwardy deserves a statue for everything he does and that sfan5 is a non-stopping machine. In all honesty, to me they're more "Minetest" than celeron55 is. I also think he makes a lot of cool stuff on his YT channel about electric engines, and I definitely appreciate him more for those that for what I've "seen" in here. Anyway, I wish you all the best from this life and I hope you can all achieve your dreams. Maybe one day we'll meet again.

Love you all :)
Last edited by Zughy on Fri Apr 02, 2021 00:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by philipbenr » Post

I could definitely respond to some of your points, but I think its better to leave this where it is.

Good luck with your future endeavors in Godot (Godotte now?)

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Hugues Ross » Post

I certainly agree with many of the points in your post, only reason I'm around is because my personal goals are somewhat different. I hope some of these things can change in time, even if it's unlikely...

Goodbye, and good luck with your future endeavors!

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Krock » Post

There's not much to say for my part. Sometimes more persistent and convincing arguments could have led to different decisions. It's nice to see someone which a clear vision in mind, but then again everyone seems to want something slightly different: a Minecraft clone, a generic game engine or a simple experiment (modding) platform.

As you certainly saw, the goals conflict often; resulting in stalls and the frustration you seem to have. Minetest hasn't seen a clear lead in development for years (Content DB aside), and might always have a slogan similar to "If you want it, implement it yourself". What could I do about that? I just contribute whenever it brings me joy and when it catches my interest. Money won't change that at all.

I hope you enjoy your upcoming projects. Good luck.
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by benrob0329 » Post

1. Most core devs don't show interest in what the community does and, in general, they don't seem to listen
Remember that the core devs are just as tired and introverted as the rest of us. They're doing this as a hobby, just like the rest of us. I really dislike the notion that just because a project is Open Source, it's creators/maintainers now owe everybody more work because it becomes popular. That being said I also have to agree at least a little bit with you, the community is rather large and the project has a lot of needs nowadays. There probably needs to be more active (even paid) developers who are willing to work on MT for the community, and not just as a hobby. That being said, MT also doesn't need to be more than a hobby for anyone. We've gotten this far with it, we'll get places in the end too.
2. Moderation is somehow non-existing, causing Minetest to be filled with bullies and weird people
I'm both too involved and not qualified enough to comment on this one publicly.
3. There's no leadership nor common vision
My stances on this haven't changed much since the last time it was brought up.
4. Open code, close money
Now here, I think there's a big misconception. The donations section of the website isn't for a central donations link, since there's no legal organization that'd be problematic. Rather, it's for individual developers to put their own donation links up for people to support them directly. I believe there used to be more there, but I could be mistaken. It's up to individual core devs to share these on the website, though it'd probably be good to encourage active ones to do so. As for c55's uninvolvement, he still hosts the majority of MT's services and acts as a project head when we really need him to, so I think his paypal being linked on the site is justified.
5. Minetest is not trying to be a solid alternative to Minecraft
This is where I almost entirely disagree with your perspective. In my opinion, Minetest should not try to compete with Minecraft. People play Minecraft because they like Minecraft, and people mod Minecraft because they like Minecraft. Where MT's strength lies is in it's ability to be more than a clone. It has the ability to foster new and creative ideas that haven't been seen before (or which have a new take on an old idea). Trying to compete with MC will (largely) make us uninteresting to those willing to pay for their games, which leads into...
6. There's no way to make money out of Minetest
Now, this is somewhat of a conundrum. Many people found Minetest because they didn't want to pay for Minecraft, or rather they found MTG. Many people also don't understand that Minetest isn't a game, and routinely ask how to properly fork it to make their own thing. Projects like Mineclone2, MTG, and even Crafter to some extent also hold up the "Free Minecraft" sign and continue this perspective. If we want a supportive, creative, and flourishing community, we have to be more than "Free Minecraft". That's not to say that clones are bad, or that they can't be creative or interesting, but interest is gained by being interesting, and doing the same thing as someone else isn't really all that interesting.

deleted c0a803ab

Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by deleted c0a803ab » Post

Is that an aprils fool?

It seems that you have done a lot of cool stuff (checking your mods atm) and good attitudes (using liberapay, matrix, avoid micro$oft and so on).
Will be a loss if you leave the community...
=(
Last edited by deleted c0a803ab on Sat Apr 03, 2021 20:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by sfan5 » Post

Sad to see you go as you were pretty invested and produced high-quality content, though ultimately not surprising since Minetest development is so sluggish.

 

I'd like to add a few points (but not in a way to disagree with the entire post):
Zughy wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 17:31
Instead, I remember once celeron55 saying something on #minetest-dev on the lines of "he's too much valuable to ban him". And to that I say, fuck that.
I'm very sure celeron55 has never and wouldn't say something like this. You might be misremembering.
(Also to the other example given: You may be right, but I don't think being rude or arrogant is something we can moderate.)
Zughy wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 17:31
Donations that are not automatically split between every core dev, but that go directly in celeron55 pockets, the same guy who's not making a commit since 2017.
The website claims that donations go towards hosting costs and general project maintenance, I (or other devs) do not know about how many donations there are or their amounts either. You're correct that more transparency here is desirable.
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by TumeniNodes » Post

Oh no, the savior of Minetest is leaving...
whatever shall we do now?

And yeh, that was pure sarcasm.
And, I don't care who gets pissed at me for saying it, because I have as much right to my opinion, and to vocalize it.
The first section of your rant reads like a Bon Jovi song, "I, I, me, me, I"
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way.

I've been around since 2016 on the forums, longer before joining the forums.
I have never seen anyone boast so much about what they've done...
And many have been around since the beginning, and contributed far more.

I haven't done much at all here, mostly sloppy mods, and unfinished TPs.
But I have done a lot of shit in many corners of the Linux world, but no one knows because I don't go around boasting about it.
I'm not too fond of boastful people. In my opinion, they're just attention whores. And they always leave a bad stench behind.

I will tell you, I have been involved in the Open Source world since 2004-ish, and this is one of THE better communities in the open source world, and there are A LOT of really good people involved.
People who help one another, can laugh with one another, and who don't boast.

You were bitchin' since the 6 month mark. As well as claiming how things only improved because "YOU" stomped your feet.

Have fun wherever you go but, get over yourself a bit

I won't respond to any responses to what I've said here.
I stated my opinions, and let my thoughts be known.

You were never gonna "get" Minetest anyway, because it's not what "you" envision it should be.
The biggest key to Minetest as a whole?
... It's an addictive hobby, on a high level.
That's the secret.
I'm not sure anyone who's been around a while, ever wants it to become some huge monster anyway tbch, because then the REAL weirdos and bullies will come. And a shit ton of them.
"Weirdos and bullys"? Have you seen Minecraft?

That's all I have to say after a while of only having time to breeze through forums, IRC, etc..
I'm still completely limited but saw enough of the boastfulness to form my opinion here over the last year or less.
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by sorcerykid » Post

And, I don't care who gets pissed at me for saying it, because I have as much right to my opinion, and to vocalize it.
The first section of your rant reads like a Bon Jovi song, "I, I, me, me, I"
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way.

I've been around since 2016 on the forums, longer before joining the forums.
I have never seen anyone boast so much about what they've done...
And many have been around since the beginning, and contributed far more.
I agree, I found the prelude of this post to be rather off-putting. That's not to say the criticisms didn't have merit, but they were kind of undermined by that overly boastful introduction.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Lone_Wolf » Post

Anyway, I'm writing this especially to stop the "do that yourself!" type of comments.
Quoting this in case the last two posters missed it. If they didn't miss it then I misunderstood.
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by philipbenr » Post

Lone_Wolf wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 02:58
Anyway, I'm writing this especially to stop the "do that yourself!" type of comments.
Quoting this in case the last two posters missed it. If they didn't miss it then I misunderstood.
^

Its easy to get lost in a wall of text and focus on what you don't like.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Zughy » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 22:50
I'm very sure celeron55 has never and wouldn't say something like this. You might be misremembering.
You are right, I've looked for the actual IRC post and it's slightly different (I've edited my first post). About the moderation, the thing is, you fear to post something when some of those people are around as they create an upsetting environment. I don't have data but I'd bet on the fact some people stopped contributing because of these behaviours. And before someone comes up with things like "pussy!", I'd like to remind that "not being a dick" should be the norm. I also invite you acting like this in real life and then let me know.
I've also exaggerated when I said it's non-existing, what I meant was that it's non-existing when it comes down to these behaviours. Bots and spam are removed in no time :)
TumeniNodes wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 23:52
I have never seen anyone boast so much about what they've done...
You see, this is what really saddens me. Since I've been accused of "do that yourself" many times in the past (like I was doing nothing but complaining), I've put that list to avoid those comments - a thing clearly stated in the end of that section. Now that I've put that list to prove I'm not one of those people, I'm being labelled as an attention seeker, like if my digital identity and ego depended on Minetest (a thing you should know it's not true, as you've apparently read my post from 6 months ago too). Maybe I should have specified the reason BEFORE the list, my bad, but that doesn't really justify your critiques. I call it caring and that's how I (also) express it. I'm sorry you see it that way

---------

Anyway, I understand how this topic could have escalated in some flame and I really appreciate the tones kept, especially by core devs. Thanks guys (and I forgot to mention v-rob, he was so nice to me)

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Wuzzy » Post

I'm amazed how most just completely ignored the actual criticism of the Minetest made by Zughy and in general just dances around the actual issues. Also, attacking Zughy as a “showoff” is super hilarious to me. Why is it bad to be proud of your achievements? This negative reaction just doesn't make sense to me.

Anywhy, here is my reply to the concrete points raised by Zughy:
1. Most core devs don't show interest in what the community does and, in general, they don't seem to listen
I believe there is one very simple reason that explains all of this: All of the core devs have very limited time for Minetest. So no matter how motivated they are, their time is eaten up by other things. And I am guessing that the “other thing” is called “working for a company for money”.
So it's not really that they don't have interest, more like that their day job exhauts them mentally. Probably.

I believe so many problems in Minetest can be traced back to this:
- Sluggish PR pipeline? No time.
- No reaction to deep-throught community discussions? No time.
- No reaction to community suggestions? No time.
- No/little forum activity? No time.
- Hard time getting a roadmap approved? No time.
- Serious bugs linger in the code for years? No time.
- No dev blog or official communications? No time.

You get the idea. It is really that simple.

What is the solution to this? Well, idk. Maybe just add more core devs.
Additionally, add more official reviewers with approval rights. Minetest desperately needs this, the PR pipeline is extremely thin. Seriously: Minetest is completely BOMBARDED with PRs. The problem is NOT lack of motivated contributors, the problem is lack of reviewers with approval rights.

However, I do like the push for Matrix. Let's promote Matrix, and hopefully we'll kill proprietary Discord one day! :D
Content creators in general feel ignored, and the companies we tend so much to complain about (e.g. Microsoft) show more interest to their community than Minetest does
It is very unfair to use MS as example. MS has orders of magnitudes more workers than we have. MS also has infinite amounts of money. You're really comparing apples with oranges. Still, that doesn't mean that we should not try to make Minetest great. ;-)
2. Moderation is somehow non-existing, causing Minetest to be filled with bullies and weird people
Two things can be true at the same time:
1) Someone is socially an asshole
2) The same someone is a great coder

What do we do? Permaban? Congratulations, you just deprived Minetest of a good worker. Tempban? Idk. definitely better than permaban. Warning? Hmmmm. Sorry, I have no idea of moderation issues. But I do believe that bad people can change. Permabans should really only be the very last straw.

Also, I would suggest one simple rule: Attack ideas, not people. You can say whatever bad thing you want, ranting about ideas, as long you don't attack someone's identity/personhood. Sounds good?

I strongly disagree that Minetest is FILLED with bullies. That's clearly an exaggeration.
3. There's no leadership nor common vision
Frankly, I can't think of anything that's excusing that. Except for that no core dev has time for Minetest (see no. 1).

There are SOME vague visions that are commonly agreed, I guess:
- Minetest is an engine for making voxel games
- It's FOSS

And that's it, lol.
4. Open code, close money
I doubt we're talking about a lot of money in this case, the donation button is probably not even well-known. But still! Transparency is better.
5. Minetest is not trying to be a solid alternative to Minecraft
It never was. However, I do believe that Minetest should aim to become something truly great. It's not wrong to use Minecraft as a source of inspiraction, but it should not be the focus of everything. There are plenty of things that IMHO Minecraft does wrong. The ultimate goal should be that Minetest is something great in its own right.

[EDIT: Besides, there is already a major Minecraft clone based on Minetest: MineClone 2.]
6. There's no way to make money out of Minetest
Actually, there is someone who makes money, MonTE48, I think. Too bad their method of doing so is by plastering ads all over the place. :(
In this world, the most effective ways to make money are usually also the unethical ones. :(

Currently, free software inherently has a disadvantage: We can't monopolize our own software, while proprietary software can. Therefore, proprietary software tends to collect all of the money while free software tends to get—at best!—only breadcrumbs. Working for free software usually means you have to accept a life in poverty, unless you are lucky and already have found some unrelated source of money.
The solution is not to embrace proprietary software because of Da Money, because that just means we accept defeat. Instead, the solution is to dismantle or weaken copyright monopoly systems, fight poverty, enable people to safely contribute to community projects without forcing them into poverty, and finally, constantly shit on proprietary software at every opportunity. ;-)
Copyright and software patenting also needs to be attacked as well because these are one of the main sources of why proprietary software is so dominating. The duration time of copyright is obscenely long (often >100 years) which is especially damning considering how fast the software world moves.
Additionally, you have to realize that no matter how good your free software actually is, even if it is is superior to proprietary software (feature-wise), you will STILL have a major disadvantage because the proprietary software (collectively) still have all of the money while you don't.

So, the problem you state is not a problem exclusive to Minetest, it's a systemic problem with society as a whole. A lot of free software projects struggle with the exact same problems.
Obviously, it will be hard to overcome this, I'm not saying it'll be easy, but it is worthwhile to fight.


-------
Here's my own take on all this:
I know that Minetest has big problems, but there's still something that draws me back to it. I still somehow have hope for the future. I mean, look at how many players there are in the servers, it's surprisingly active for a FOSS game. In that sense, Minetest is already a success. But there's still so much to do IMHO.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Wuzzy » Post

Unrelated to my previous post:

Zughy, since you are shutting down your server soon, do you have plans to find a successor, i.e. someone who could pick it up? Or at least provide all the neccessary data for someone to theoretically 'revive' the server, which implies providing a world download or whatever? It would be a shame if all the levels that have been built so far would go to waste.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by ShadMOrdre » Post

I don't normally respond to these types of posts. But...

The entirety of the open source movement is base on the very idea of DIY, Do It Yourself. Unfortunately, this is both a blessing and a curse. As a full time single father, time is limited. When I get to code, I try to spend my time coding. When I post any mods and/or updates, it is when I feel I have something worth sharing, and when I have time.

This is what supports the hobby.

Do I wish I could code more, publish more, gain attention for contributions, fund my efforts, make a buck for the aforementioned son's daily upkeep, and maybe something for a college fund? Yes.

Can I ALONE accomplish the work of ten in the time allotted to one? No.

Can I work the ten 8 hour shifts (80 hours) within the 24 hours of a day? Basic math.

Do I throw my hands up in defeat in the face of overwhelming odds? No

Do I continue to enjoy my hobby, sharing my efforts? Yes


I, like many others, simply enjoy the collective fruits of so many others labor. I am tremendously appreciative

But ... I've come to learn in life, EXPECT NOTHING from others! I'm happier without all the disappointments.


Zughy, you should reconsider. The only way projects get better, is when those who care work to make it better.

Is everyone going to agree with me, acknowledge me, or like what I do contribute? No.

Does it bother me? No.

Do I quit?

deleted c0a803ab

Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by deleted c0a803ab » Post

Section was removed by author.
See here why.

--
Wuzzy wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 15:48
All of the core devs have very limited time for Minetest.

Maybe it would be a good solution to set up a proper funding infrastructure, so that they can reduce the amount of time they are spending on their jobs (except they like what they do as a job, but the most people do not), or even quit them.

--
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 17:52
Zughy, you should reconsider. The only way projects get better, is when those who care work to make it better.
And because that's true, Zughy should stay imo.
Last edited by deleted c0a803ab on Sat Apr 03, 2021 20:50, edited 2 times in total.

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jp
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by jp » Post

I have to respond to Zughy as I am mentionned in a dedicated point of the original post. I'll keep it as brief as possible, I have a lot more critical stuff on the boil than replying to one of these lenghty interpersonal concerns. Unlike you, dear Zughy, my main concern is to craft softwares of the best quality I can do, this is the most effective way to attract new contributors and to create businesses around it.

First of all, I must say that I enjoyed watching a live-stream on YouTube presenting your online game (AES). We have to thank you for proposing this service and creating such an original content.

But I have to agree with TumeniNodes that you were boasting a lot for contributions that were mostly pointless refactorings, out-of-place arts, and the like. I felt like that -- at some point -- the core-devs felt "obliged" to merge your contributions with the threat of another drama on the forums that would tint badly on them.

I also didn't like the way you got involved in the high places for decisions while you didn't have much accolades to your belt, or trying to moderate a long-time contributor like Wuzzy on the forums about the way they post while you were still a newcomer...

About sfan5, I know sfan5 since 2014. He knows that I respect him and I know he can take a wild "arsehole" (that I don't even think). I recognize that I can be a hotheaded idiot sometimes, and that is fine if some people don't like the way I am communicating because it's no longer my main concern. At the end of the day, remember that it's not critical in your life, this is just a half-assed video game project with some weirdos on the internet.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by TumeniNodes » Post

I lied, I will respond again.
Perhaps others should go through and notice just how many times you felt the need to remind everyone about how some things happened only because YOU stomped your feet... as if you were a savior to the project. Constantly mentioning what you've done or "pushed" for.
It comes off as obnoxious to some people.
And now that everyone is not jumping to your desires, or attending to them fast enough or at all... you quit.
That's "dedication" and caring?

You'll have this attitude of "MT could have been great... if only they had listened to me and done what I said to do"

Are some of the critiques accurate? I don't have an opinion because I don't get involved with that end in this community and never intended to.
And I love how stating my opinion makes me "antisocial" and/or "a troll"

Minetest is ever evolving.
It will still be around, long down the road.
Will it have advanced greatly? Who knows. Maybe, maybe not.
I can feel safe stating that understanding the projects status (even though it's been around a while now) is not enough to bring in a great abundance of $ via donations.
I know that Celeron55 has continued to host the entire project since inception, and still attends to most of the backend stuff, and has always ensured there are trusted people involved in the event of something unfortunate as backup.

Coding / media contributions from anyone who wishes or decides to, is always appreciated and welcome, but you come off as if the project has been going nowhere until YOU arrived, and YOU were gonna steer it all into the right direction.
And that started almost right off, at least from my perspective, watching from the sidelines.
A Wonderful World

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by sorcerykid » Post

Very well stated TumeniNodes. You basically took the words right out of my mouth.

I also think Kilbith makes an interesting point: it's worthwhile remembering that at the end of the day this is just a computer game. So it's probably not worth to take it too seriously, particularly if it's impacting someone's mental health or outlook on life.

deleted c0a803ab

Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by deleted c0a803ab » Post

I see that this is already a splitted community... =(
I withdraw my opinion, cause I do not want to stand between two fronts.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by Linuxdirk » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 15:48
All of the core devs have very limited time for Minetest. So no matter how motivated they are, their time is eaten up by other things. And I am guessing that the “other thing” is called “working for a company for money”.
Some years ago (waaaaay before MICROS~1 bought Minecraft) I was an active member of a Minecraft server team. When there were team meetings via Mumble I sometimes left from work early to join those meetings and did the work the next day. I sometimes rushed home on my bike to join chat sessions or activities and community events on the server and more than once I spend a Friday evening helping our users instead of partying.

I did not get any money but I volunteered and took that serious. I’m not saying all core devs should show the same dedication as I did years ago for that Minecraft server, but constantly complaining about not having enough time (or not wanting to spend this time on Minetest) is simply the wrong way. You either volunteer and find time to do what you volunteered to, or you do not volunteer.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by freshreplicant » Post

In relation to Zughy's points:

1. Most core devs don't show interest in what the community does and, in general, they don't seem to listen

I don't think this is malicious or deliberate. In many ways I think the stagnation and eventual freezing of MTG caused this community to fracture and loose some of its cohesiveness. This isn't to say that MTG shouldn't be dead or that a multi-game approach isn't the future, but if you have a single official game as the driving force behind development, you are usually working on a more narrow feature list that's required to make things happen in the game. Now contributions to the engine are driven by many different sets of priorities, from smaller passion projects by individual devs, by modders looking to implement something and by some of the larger games in the community. This approach might work out too, especially if the larger collaborative projects like Mineclone2 keep growing and accumulate more talented contributors. The efforts to work on a proper engine roadmap and define what is in our out of scope for particular versions also seems like a step in the right direction.

As Wuzzy and others have pointed out, the death of the default game shouldn't mean that the focus now should be promoting the engine first. In 99.5% of places you come across Minetest, it's in the context of a game (or games), not a flat out engine like Godot or Unreal. Games, mods, adventures, playable experiences, content you can showcase - this is the lifeblood of the community. That is what brought most people here and will likely keep bringing people in. For every person who arrives that just wants to play games or hop on a server, a certain percentage of new arrivals will also have the skills, time and interest to contribute to the engine.

2. Moderation

It's great that spaces in the FOSS world are more expressive, wacky and a bit 'Wild West' than corporate spaces, but Minetest as a community could do with a few more guidelines for moderation in official spaces, without going full 'Code of Conduct' and policing people for their opinions elsewhere. At a minium we should all be able to focus when we interact here, keep things more or less 'on-topic' (unless in a designated place for off-topic discussion) and be civil to each other.

On the forums (and Matrix) conversations do fairly frequently veer into the realm of the thoroughly off-topic, especially in ways that become flamewars. Occasionally this off-topic stuff can be truly bizarre and honestly a bit worrying. Very rarely however are these posts taken down. I don't blame the mods for this though, especially since it's not always clear if these types of things are against the rules, even if they appear to be detrimental to the quality of the overall discussion.

I was made a moderator on Matrix, but I'm often lost about what should try to moderate and what to ignore. There's also other minor issues like when 'edgy' people try to stir up some reaction with 'offensive' usernames, profile pictures or opinions. Personally, I don't find much to be actually offensive, but still these people can be annoying and often spark flamewars, off-topic debates about politics, religion, etc. Not sure what you can moderation wise without being too heavy handed though. There does also seem to be a small section of the community that decided to use this relative freedom to be grumpy, contrarian and rude, which is a pity but probably unavoidable.

There's censorship and then there's saying "This place is about this topic. If you want to talk about something else, there are a million other places dedicated to those topics. Please behave while you're here and don't be a jerk." If you let people who don't have this basic understanding run amok in the officials spaces, most well adjusted social people will not want to interact with this project – not because they’re 'triggered’, easily offended or prudes, but just exhausted trying to engage with the actual topic at hand. I have personally come across a number of people who indicated reservations about continuing their involvement in the Minetest community because of moderation issues.

Having more clear-cut guidelines about what the official Minetest spaces are for and what they are not for would make for better on-topic conversations and less need for meta discussions (like this post here). Defining this also opens up niches for all kinds of unofficial Minetest communities.

4. Donations

Pooled, transparent donations would be great, maybe on something like OpenCollective. Even if say, 70% or 80% is earmarked for hosting the forums or whatever the Minetest donations to celeron55 are currently going towards, it'd be good to be able to see how the project works and know that contributors are getting even a token amount. It also motivates people to donate if they can see their donations make a difference.

5. Minetest as a Minecraft Alternative

I think the word alternative is key here, not competitor. Of course this little community can't compete with Microsoft. Of course it will never have as many players. Minetest games should not be limited to cloning Minecraft (no offence to Mineclone 2, it's actually pretty impressive), but let's face it, the engine is pretty uniquely suited for games that fall within the survival/creative/exploration genre. There's still a billion different ways to combine these factors and make something unique and engrossing. You can work in genre conventions, take inspiration from other games and still make something distinct. There's a lot of fretting about being original or mould breaking in the community, while elsewhere people are running with specific genre conventions and making fun games like Veloren, Terarria, Valheim, Stardew Valley, 0AD, Xonotic and so on.

6. Making money with Minetest

This an issue for the FOSS world in general, though. There's a few very notable exceptions to the trend (Godot, etc.) but overall, unless you get a big corporate sponsor or are very good a building and constantly cultivating a following/community, it can be tricky to make money.

Personally, I think it's important to say that I wasn't brought to Minetest because I'm too cheap to buy Minecraft. I bought Minecraft for myself, and at least one copy for a friend, I had a Realms subscription several times. I regularly bought games on other platforms and paid for other subscriptions. I came to Minetest because it's FOSS and I can play it and contribute financially towards it without feeling like I'm contributing to a megacorp in their conquest to take over the world. If Minetest was behind a 'pay the suggested amount or don't' gate like Zorin, Elementary OS and others, I would pay for it. If there was an Open Collective type thing, I'd become a regular donor. If there was an official hosting service ala Matrix, I'd consider paying for it rather than the 3rd party VPS I am using now. I might even consider buying 'merch'. Others would surely do the same.

As for Zughy...

Zughy can come across as cocky, prideful and a bit hot headed. Zughy and I are very different people. But Zughy is also a very passionate person and I think his heart and head are in the right place. At the end of the day, if you engage with him, he is also fairly reasonable and approachable.

Just because something is a hobby doesn't mean you can't be dedicated, driven, prideful or impatient about it. If you are not a professional pianist, but you play piano as a hobby - would you not strive to hone that skill to its highest level? If you do woodworking as hobby, would you not take pride in your work and produce quality furniture? And if you play amateur team sports would you not try to encourage each other to play as good as you possibly can? You can do all of that and still have 'fun' with your hobby. For many people, that challenge is the fun.

Even if he is prideful and might overestimate his impact somewhat, Zughy is pretty objectively not just somebody who endlessly talked the talk with nothing to show for it. He is genuinely a very skilled artist and in a very short space of time (with some help from friends) has brought cool mods, minigames, engine contributions, a server and the #1 texture pack to Minetest. The A.E.S. server and its BlockLeague tournaments are pretty unique and seemed to genuinely generate some hype in the community. It was fun to tune into live-streams and listen to commentary from people like MinetestVideos.

As Zughy himself indicated in his opening post, and others have pointed out since, Zughy opened his post with his contributions to counter the claims that he's got no skin in the game or that he hasn't been proactive. Even if that rubs you the wrong way, Zughy can still have valid feedback that's worth sharing.

I am sorry to see him and his gang of Italian FOSS enthusiasts leave the Minetest community. Overall, I think their having been active here is without a doubt a net positive for Minetest.

Generally, it's probably worth looking at why people decide to leave this community. Healthy comminutes are capable of introspection without reflexively shooting the messenger.

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by v-rob » Post

It makes me sad to see people get disillusioned and leave. I often get disillusioned myself because there are too many bugs, development is so slow even for myself, issues keep piling up, etc. I guess for myself, I never leave because I always tell myself in these situations that Minetest really has one purpose: to make people happy. Certainly, less bugs, more features, and faster development would probably make Minetest better and might make people happier, but I know it's not worth my or anyone else's sanity. For myself, I have had just as much fun in 0.4.14 when I really began modding in earnest as I have in 0.2.something where I first began playing as I have in 0.5.1 starting my coding for the engine. In many ways, I wish more people shared my view that it's fun even without thing X or even if development is slow or compatibility is not as good as it could be, but I know that other people hold different views.

Anyway, I wish Zughy luck in his endeavors, and I hope he can have a better experience wherever else he's going.
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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by LMD » Post

Bye. Great job.
My stuff: Projects - Mods - Website

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Re: Saying goodbye and sharing my 1 year perspective

by runs » Post

I hate to say it, but I knew it, not 2 years, just 4 months:

https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=386905#p386905

Minetest is definitely not for the impatient. Either you love Minetest with all his faults and virtues, or you abandon it.

Good luck!

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