About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

Which platform do you prefer for donating to projects or people?

Poll ended at Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:47

PayPal
8
31%
Patreon
10
38%
Liberapay
7
27%
Ko-fi
0
No votes
Something else, please comment
1
4%
 
Total votes: 26

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celeron55
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About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by celeron55 » Post

I was reading this viewtopic.php?p=392751#p392751 and I could barely believe this part. Is this what people commonly think?
Zughy wrote:4. Open code, close money
The only way to donate is through the website, and it's a PayPal donation link. I find it quite contradictory that a FOSS project has hidden donations. Donations that are not automatically split between every core dev, but that go directly in celeron55 pockets, the same guy who's not making a commit since 2017. Maybe he then splits those money with the rest of core devs (who are doing the 95% of the job), but the only truth here is that I can't tell. Looking at other projects like Veloren, Godot, Krita and Blender I honestly find it absurd. Also, talking about money, considering the 19k Godot makes every month, it comes without saying which engine is (or will be, in the long run) better to develop a voxel game. Money talks, ching ching bling bling, ya know.
Some of this was already corrected in the thread even while Zughy literally requested to not be corrected by core devs, however here's my take:

It's a PayPal link due to historical reasons - back when I started the project Patreon wasn't still going to exist in 3 years, and even then it probably was available only in the US.

At one point I used to publish donations on the website, but nobody seemed to be interested in them.

Then, publishing donations when they barely cover the hosting costs doesn't feel like an important thing to do. I used to write them down in a text file and compare to the actual hosting costs, but after doing that for years and them basically matching anyway, I couldn't bother anymore. If there's any extra, it doesn't come close to covering the system administration work required, not even mentioning all the other things I'm doing in the background to keep this ball rolling. From my perspective, making commits doesn't keep MT afloat. All the other stuff is a priority.

Anyway, I can't avoid asking the question now: Would people find it more approachable and respectable if I changed to using Patreon or something similar for the purpose of covering hosting costs and getting something for the hours I put into MT?

Collecting money from a singular source and spreading it to core developers (or anyone else) is out of the question because MT does not have a company or non-profit that could legally handle money in such a way.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Mineminer » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 17:01
I was reading this viewtopic.php?p=392751#p392751 and I could barely believe this part. Is this what people commonly think?
Zughy wrote:4. Open code, close money
The only way to donate is through the website, and it's a PayPal donation link. I find it quite contradictory that a FOSS project has hidden donations. Donations that are not automatically split between every core dev, but that go directly in celeron55 pockets, the same guy who's not making a commit since 2017. Maybe he then splits those money with the rest of core devs (who are doing the 95% of the job), but the only truth here is that I can't tell. Looking at other projects like Veloren, Godot, Krita and Blender I honestly find it absurd. Also, talking about money, considering the 19k Godot makes every month, it comes without saying which engine is (or will be, in the long run) better to develop a voxel game. Money talks, ching ching bling bling, ya know.
Some of this was already corrected in the thread even while Zughy literally requested to not be corrected by core devs, however here's my take:

It's a PayPal link due to historical reasons - back when I started the project Patreon wasn't still going to exist in 3 years, and even then it probably was available only in the US.

At one point I used to publish donations on the website, but nobody seemed to be interested in them.

Then, publishing donations when they barely cover the hosting costs doesn't feel like an important thing to do. I used to write them down in a text file and compare to the actual hosting costs, but after doing that for years and them basically matching anyway, I couldn't bother anymore. If there's any extra, it doesn't come close to covering the system administration work required, not even mentioning all the other things I'm doing in the background to keep this ball rolling. From my perspective, making commits doesn't keep MT afloat. All the other stuff is a priority.

Anyway, I can't avoid asking the question now: Would people find it more approachable and respectable if I changed to using Patreon or something similar for the purpose of covering hosting costs and getting something for the hours I put into MT?
There is probably two things at play here...

1. People not understanding where's their contributions going
2. As such people are wondering why the money is not divvied up.

My suggestion? Just one shot it and run it through LibreCollective or whatever heck it called.
Collecting money from a singular source and spreading it to core developers (or anyone else) is out of the question because MT does not have a company or non-profit that could legally handle money in such a way.
That is no longer a valid roadblock if you run it though there since you can have essentially a entity to do this on your behalf. LibreCollective even have one for FOSS projects in fact for THAT very reasoning.

In such manners money is out of your hands aside from the expenses you report on there. Such as the mentioned hosting costs, sysadmin time, etc.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by rubenwardy » Post

Whilst a librecollective would be ideal, that also requires a legal entity or fiscal host of some kind. Using patreon would already be a big step up, and would allow people to make regular payments and see how much of the hosting costs are being covered
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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Mineminer » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 17:42
Whilst a librecollective would be ideal, that also requires a legal entity or fiscal host of some kind. Using patreon would already be a big step up, and would allow people to make regular payments and see how much of the hosting costs are being covered
Which LibreCollective can provides on the spot for a very nominal fee. Which is why I think it's a promising "all in one" solution for Minetest.

Since Minetest would just just rely on a Fiscal Host to do the "money stuffs" while everyone just focuses on Minetest as usual. :)

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by rubenwardy » Post

Mineminer wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 17:45
Which LibreCollective can provides on the spot for a very nominal fee. Which is why I think it's a promising "all in one" solution for Minetest.

Since Minetest would just just rely on a Fiscal Host to do the "money stuffs" while everyone just focuses on Minetest as usual. :)
Freenode relied on Freenode LTD just for the money stuffs, until Freenode LTD decided to exert control and takeover Freenode

My point is you need to trust the fiscal host, and it's also not a zero amount of effort
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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Klaranth » Post

I am more curious which version of this all is the least expensive for you.

How much does it cost to keep using Paypal? Patreon receives a small percentage (between 5 and 12 percent) once you start earning on Patreon, plus an industry-standard rate for processing payments from your patrons.

What are the (hidden) costs for alternatives?

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by celeron55 » Post

PayPal is reasonably priced compared to more fleshed out alternatives, but it seems a service that provides some openness and the option for recurring payments could be more along the lines of what people expect these days. For example if using Patreon, I can imagine there would be a few people who'd like to chime in $1 or $2 for hosting costs per month, as long as they're seeing it actually counts. Nobody's going to do that with PayPal.

For the rest of the core team, I guess we could offer a spot for everyone on the donation section. It might get into a bit of a popularity contest, but that could still be better than the current situation. It could possibly give a bit more incentive for core dev work.

But, again, I'm not in the target audience. Opinions please.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Mineminer » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 17:56
Mineminer wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 17:45
Which LibreCollective can provides on the spot for a very nominal fee. Which is why I think it's a promising "all in one" solution for Minetest.

Since Minetest would just just rely on a Fiscal Host to do the "money stuffs" while everyone just focuses on Minetest as usual. :)
Freenode relied on Freenode LTD just for the money stuffs, until Freenode LTD decided to exert control and takeover Freenode

My point is you need to trust the fiscal host, and it's also not a zero amount of effort
Understood, thanks for bringing that my attention in a mean that I am able to process this and understands this. :)

As it been already discussed through Paypal is the cheapest of the bunch as Patreon is a bunch of beefs when it comes to cuts. it's a mind BOILING 10 or so precent I believe? Which I find is very much even compared to montenized hosted platforms for running your own storefronts and such.

I suspect they charge that much because of the clear advantages they have so they just hype up the fees just because they can.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by runs » Post

Don't listen to Zuggy, he's not a bad guy, but that's where he went off the deep end.

Nobody believes that you can get rich with donations, at least not me. For a simple reason: they are a disaster, nobody knows how to make them.

Anyway, if you don't want money, do it for the developers. The effort to collect money for them. It's one more motivation. The developers are very burned out. They keep the work and nobody thanks them, only complaints and bad faces. A Christmas bonus at the end of the year would be nice , i.e.

Patreon is outdated. Paypal is a safe bet. I use KOFI and it works fine too.

I have other ideas, but I don't think you're going to listen to me, nobody here does, so I'll shut up now.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by v-rob » Post

I always understood donations to be for hosting costs. I didn't think anyone actually assumed that anyone was actually making a profit, but apparently there are.
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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Mineminer » Post

v-rob wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 00:36
I always understood donations to be for hosting costs. I didn't think anyone actually assumed that anyone was actually making a profit, but apparently there are.
Well you have to remember that there's little in the ways of reassuring them that is the case.

Without the reassurement people are just going to be fearing these thoughts. It's human nature to do so.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by AmyMoriyama » Post

My two cents, do what is doable and be transparent about it and those who worry will see exactly what's going on. Hosting isn't cheap for any decent-sized website. Someone has to pay it. It is best that it be covered as much as possible by those who enjoy minetest. I actually wasn't even aware there was the ability to donate.

My personal view, if I saw the amount hosting costs and the donations that come in, I would be more likely to donate more if the hosting was coming up short, for example. I might even be inclined to spread the work to drum up some more donations. However, if the donation seems to go into a black hole, it makes people less likely to want to donate regularly. I like recurring donations like on Patreon because I can set how much I want to contribute and forget about it yet know the projects I enjoy will keep getting some help from me.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by celeron55 » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 23:38
Patreon is outdated. Paypal is a safe bet. I use KOFI and it works fine too.
Wait what, Ko-fi says they take 0% fees. Where do they get the money to run their business? To me it seems they're just growing their userbase and afterwards will add fees.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by runs » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 09:58
runs wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 23:38
Patreon is outdated. Paypal is a safe bet. I use KOFI and it works fine too.
Wait what, Ko-fi says they take 0% fees. Where do they get the money to run their business? To me it seems they're just growing their userbase and afterwards will add fees.
Gold Service
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In any case, if they start charging, nothing happens. In my case I would close the account and screw them.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by runs » Post

Mineminer wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 01:59
v-rob wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 00:36
I always understood donations to be for hosting costs. I didn't think anyone actually assumed that anyone was actually making a profit, but apparently there are.
Well you have to remember that there's little in the ways of reassuring them that is the case.

Without the reassurement people are just going to be fearing these thoughts. It's human nature to do so.
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Open Source is not against earning money

I am really tired of this confusion.

The Social Contract for Open Source:

"My code is free — my time is not."

If they give money to the developers it's fine with me. If they then spend it on wh*r*s I'm fine with that too. Because Free Software don't talk about money.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by rubenwardy » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 09:58
runs wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 23:38
Patreon is outdated. Paypal is a safe bet. I use KOFI and it works fine too.
Wait what, Ko-fi says they take 0% fees. Where do they get the money to run their business? To me it seems they're just growing their userbase and afterwards will add fees.
Liberapay is like patreon but takes no fees and is run by a non profit. They rely on donations to their page on their site
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Re: About my donation link on the website

by runs » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:07
celeron55 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 09:58
runs wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 23:38
Patreon is outdated. Paypal is a safe bet. I use KOFI and it works fine too.
Wait what, Ko-fi says they take 0% fees. Where do they get the money to run their business? To me it seems they're just growing their userbase and afterwards will add fees.
Liberapay is like patreon but takes no fees and is run by a non profit. They rely on donations to their page on their site
Cool, but very spartan website. Ko-fi is kawaii-like, I adore it.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by celeron55 » Post

I added a poll to the first post.

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Re: About my donation link on the website

by Mineminer » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:48
I added a poll to the first post.
Awesome I casted my vote in. :)

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by Corax » Post

For my own convenience's and simplicity's sake, I'd go with Paypal, since that's what I'd have to use to use any of Patreon, Kofi or Liberapay anyway, as far as I can tell.
Even if they didn't or don't take a cut themselves, Paypal would still get its share regardless, plus I'd have to register yet another account, which is a significant hurdle in my opinion.

I'm no fan of Paypal by any means, but unless there's some really direct, anonymous way like Paysafe that doesn't require yet another account, that's the one I'd prefer, and only because for me it's the path of least resistance :/

PS.: Doesn't Paypal offer recurring payments, too?

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by Wuzzy » Post

I voted for Liberapay because 1) it does not contain proprietary JavaScript on their website and 2) it's not run by an authotaritan corporation and 3) does not have a history of randomly freezing money accounts.

We should always side with our fellow FOSS friends where possible. Proprietary software needs to die, including shitty proprietary JavaScript in websites, a problem which is often ignored.

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by Mineminer » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 20:09
I voted for Liberapay because 1) it does not contain proprietary JavaScript on their website and 2) it's not run by an authotaritan corporation.

We should always side with our fellow FOSS friends where possible. Proprietary software needs to die, including shitty proprietary JavaScript in websites, a problem which is often ignored.
The only reason I don't like this is because they throttle your donations to $100/week or something. In the name of "so nobody overpowers a project" which is strange to me.

I SORTA get it that they don't want Microsoft, Amazon, etc to make loads of donations to "over run" projects. But there are legitimate grounds to donating in large lumps. For example for people who need to "vent off excess cash" to stay within a certain taxation bracket at the end of the year.

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by runs » Post

My vote was for Liberapay. It fits more with Minetets philosophy and raison d'être.

But my heart goes out to kofi because it is super cute.

Image

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by runs » Post

Mineminer wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 20:13
Wuzzy wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 20:09
I voted for Liberapay because 1) it does not contain proprietary JavaScript on their website and 2) it's not run by an authotaritan corporation.

We should always side with our fellow FOSS friends where possible. Proprietary software needs to die, including shitty proprietary JavaScript in websites, a problem which is often ignored.
The only reason I don't like this is because they throttle your donations to $100/week or something. In the name of "so nobody overpowers a project" which is strange to me.

I SORTA get it that they don't want Microsoft, Amazon, etc to make loads of donations to "over run" projects. But there are legitimate grounds to donating in large lumps. For example for people who need to "vent off excess cash" to stay within a certain taxation bracket at the end of the year.
what?!

they may be very liberal and all, but who are they to decide the amount of money to donate. I repeat, free software doesn't say anything that you can't become a multimillionaire if you feel like it, for ****'s sake.

Having these prerogatives of moral superiority disgusts me.

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Re: About my donation link on the website (and a poll)

by runs » Post

I changed my vote for paypal!!!

Nobody has to tell me how much money I donate. If I want to donate 1 million euros, who are they to say no?

Even here we could get to ....

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