Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

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runs
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

I am very disappointed with Minetest. Lately I have almost abandoned it. My patience has a limit. My great contribution Juanchi Game (A MTG expansion) was vilely torpedoed by a gang of heartless, they have sunk it in ContentDB, when before it was loved by (almost) everyone. I was banned from several sites by envious people and the bosses of Minetest did not defend me.

I don't want to make a pity post, like so many others from previous people. Because... I don't give a damn, I don't give a damn about people's opinions. I am strong and impetuous.

My new projects are: Juanchi Server and Juanpy. Probably the future of Minetest will be Minetest and Juanpy; in two years we will see the results. A brutal duo combination.

Also a collection of stickers and exclusive products from Samantha, the spoiled girl of Minetest. I want to do something related to Christmas. Christmas is beautiful, I love it.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

i hate minetest
it sucks
minetest sucks

i have 3 main problems with minetest.

1: learning minetest modding is impossible. There are less "good" sources than there are fingers on your hand, assuming you lost 2 fingers.

Want to learn to mod in minetest? Here, read the modding guide. It will definetely help you so much.
Yes I admit it is useful, but its so narrow and ends within 10 minutes of reading.
Anything outside the scope of that modding guide is basically secret knowledge only known to the ancient minetest modders.
Examples: Coding particles, how to use the nodebox drawtype, etc

There are literally only 2 youtubers I know of who make modding tutorials. Both of them do the same kind of stuff as in the modbook, which sucks.

2: big hacker problem. Won't discuss in-depth here, but I'm sure we all know that Minetest is built stupidly.

3: Feature implementation.
Just repeating what many have said before me, but yes minetest PRs are amazingly slow to be added.
Many "cool" features that would've been cool did not get added because it takes 3 millennia for someone to review it, say "hmm no change this and that" and now you have to wait yet another 3 millennia

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by Eris » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
i hate minetest
it sucks
minetest sucks

i have 3 main problems with minetest.

1: learning minetest modding is impossible. There are less "good" sources than there are fingers on your hand, assuming you lost 2 fingers.

Want to learn to mod in minetest? Here, read the modding guide. It will definetely help you so much.
Yes I admit it is useful, but its so narrow and ends within 10 minutes of reading.
Anything outside the scope of that modding guide is basically secret knowledge only known to the ancient minetest modders.
Examples: Coding particles, how to use the nodebox drawtype, etc

There are literally only 2 youtubers I know of who make modding tutorials. Both of them do the same kind of stuff as in the modbook, which sucks.

2: big hacker problem. Won't discuss in-depth here, but I'm sure we all know that Minetest is built stupidly.

3: Feature implementation.
Just repeating what many have said before me, but yes minetest PRs are amazingly slow to be added.
Many "cool" features that would've been cool did not get added because it takes 3 millennia for someone to review it, say "hmm no change this and that" and now you have to wait yet another 3 millennia
If you'd like to have it work your way, you can always fork it.
Otherwise, appreciate there is this engine that allows you to create what you desire.
Jump in the caac

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
i hate minetest
it sucks
minetest sucks

i have 3 main problems with minetest.

1: learning minetest modding is impossible. There are less "good" sources than there are fingers on your hand, assuming you lost 2 fingers.

Want to learn to mod in minetest? Here, read the modding guide. It will definetely help you so much.
Yes I admit it is useful, but its so narrow and ends within 10 minutes of reading.
Anything outside the scope of that modding guide is basically secret knowledge only known to the ancient minetest modders.
Examples: Coding particles, how to use the nodebox drawtype, etc

There are literally only 2 youtubers I know of who make modding tutorials. Both of them do the same kind of stuff as in the modbook, which sucks.

2: big hacker problem. Won't discuss in-depth here, but I'm sure we all know that Minetest is built stupidly.

3: Feature implementation.
Just repeating what many have said before me, but yes minetest PRs are amazingly slow to be added.
Many "cool" features that would've been cool did not get added because it takes 3 millennia for someone to review it, say "hmm no change this and that" and now you have to wait yet another 3 millennia
You could say the same thing in a more polite way, I reckon.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by rubenwardy » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
1: learning minetest modding is impossible. There are less "good" sources than there are fingers on your hand, assuming you lost 2 fingers.

Want to learn to mod in minetest? Here, read the modding guide. It will definetely help you so much.
Yes I admit it is useful, but its so narrow and ends within 10 minutes of reading.
[...]
Examples: Coding particles, how to use the nodebox drawtype, etc
You are right, Minetest's documentation isn't great

But if you're reading the modding book in less than 10 minutes, you're not taking it in. The modding book covers all the main areas of the API. It aims to explain concepts rather than exhaustively documenting everything. For that, you need to use the Lua API reference. There are problems with the Lua API reference, I would like to see work to improve it
LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
3: Feature implementation.
Just repeating what many have said before me, but yes minetest PRs are amazingly slow to be added.
Many "cool" features that would've been cool did not get added because it takes 3 millennia for someone to review it, say "hmm no change this and that" and now you have to wait yet another 3 millennia
Reviewing PRs is time consuming and hard, and there aren't enough core dev hours to properly do them all. We've introduced a roadmap to add some focus on the areas we'd like to prioritise, allowing us to close PRs that aren't as necessary right now
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by rubenwardy » Post

runs wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:17
I was banned from several sites by envious people and the bosses of Minetest did not defend me.
I'm not involved with the moderation of either of the communities, but on the Matrix one you were banned for showing mock ups for a Nazi mod. You would have had the same result if you posted it on the forums instead
runs wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:17
My great contribution Juanchi Game (A MTG expansion) was vilely torpedoed by a gang of heartless, they have sunk it in ContentDB, when before it was loved by (almost) everyone.
are you referring to the two negative reviews on ContentDB, written by users that have reviewed a large number of games? Both of those reviews are constructive, and point out obvious flaws to work on. Negative reviews are usually more helpful than positive reviews, as they identify pain points to work on
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by Linuxdirk » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
1: learning minetest modding is impossible.
I learned Lua and Minetest modding in a few weeks. Its not really hard once you understand how to write programs/scripts in Lua and once you find the modding API documentation and understand how to use it. All you then need to do is writing code that does what you want. It takes time, but it is absolutely possible. I made my first mod (one that I actually used and that was not for learning only) a few days after I started learning how to do it.
LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
Many "cool" features that would've been cool did not get added because it takes 3 millennia for someone to review it, say "hmm no change this and that" and now you have to wait yet another 3 millennia
Yes, I 100% agree with this. It's also one of the reasons I learned modding.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

runs wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:17
My great contribution Juanchi Game (A MTG expansion) was vilely torpedoed by a gang of heartless, they have sunk it in ContentDB, when before it was loved by (almost) everyone.
are you referring to the two negative reviews on ContentDB, written by users that have reviewed a large number of games? Both of those reviews are constructive, and point out obvious flaws to work on. Negative reviews are usually more helpful than positive reviews, as they identify pain points to work on
[/quote]

But they sink my ranking. And if it's lower, people won't see it and won't play and then it will go lower and lower, all the way to the ground. I would like another method.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 03:08
runs wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:17
My great contribution Juanchi Game (A MTG expansion) was vilely torpedoed by a gang of heartless, they have sunk it in ContentDB, when before it was loved by (almost) everyone.
are you referring to the two negative reviews on ContentDB, written by users that have reviewed a large number of games? Both of those reviews are constructive, and point out obvious flaws to work on. Negative reviews are usually more helpful than positive reviews, as they identify pain points to work on
But they sink my ranking. And if it's lower, people won't see it and won't play and then it will go lower and lower, all the way to the ground. I would like another method.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by MisterE » Post

yeah it would be better if bugs were reported on the bugtracker :(

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by ShadMOrdre » Post

But they sink my ranking. And if it's lower, people won't see it and won't play and then it will go lower and lower, all the way to the ground. I would like another method.
This is how markets work. "Good / popular" products gain many users and are considered a success, "bad / unpopular" products don't gain attention, aren't used by the general public, and thus "fail". Do you not believe yourself, your abilities to make it better, or in the very "game" you are here advocating?

Would you prefer a method of evaluation that simply rates you higher for no reason? Would you prefer this community bow to you? What exactly is it that you want, runs?

I hear lots of complaining that others won't do the work, but no one rising up and contributing. PRs for "features" that aren't really engine features but game features does tend to overload a system.

I want my peanut butter and jelly sandwich to be made with steak and potatoes, but I still want everyone to call it a "pb n j".

We can all complain the world isn't revolving around us, but really, doesn't that just point out the obvious...

If half the time whining and complaining, were actually spent on reading the lua_api.txt file found in the ./minetest/docs folder and looking at mod code in general, modding would be possible in 5...4...3...2...1.

Why become involved is the question. Please stick to the topic by answering the question, and leave all the other whining behind.

Shad

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by Mantar » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 09:45
But they sink my ranking. And if it's lower, people won't see it and won't play and then it will go lower and lower, all the way to the ground. I would like another method.
I get that, it's not fun to have your rating lowered. But I don't think the rating will go down any further unless more thumbs-down reviews are posted.
The one guy does have a fair point about unified_inventory and the hundreds of recipes, it is a lot to wade through. I still had fun with juanchi_game, though. As "mod soup" goes, it's a nice selection, and the aesthetics are well polished.
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

To be clear when I repeated "minetest sucks" I was being somewhat sarcastic, It doesn't *actually* suck lol.
I just stated my problems with it, but I'm not like avidly hating on anything.
rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 03:00
But if you're reading the modding book in less than 10 minutes, you're not taking it in. The modding book covers all the main areas of the API. It aims to explain concepts rather than exhaustively documenting everything. For that, you need to use the Lua API reference. There are problems with the Lua API reference, I would like to see work to improve it
You have a point. I was reading it in ten minutes because most of the stuff there has already been taught before. Newer concepts are much harder to find information on, and the Lua API reference lacks examples like the modding book does.
For example, the modding book has sample init.luas that have multiple lines of code working together. The API does not. (also I have no prior knowledge of coding lua so im a bit stupid)
Linuxdirk wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 08:06
LordPhyre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:20
1: learning minetest modding is impossible.
I learned Lua and Minetest modding in a few weeks. Its not really hard once you understand how to write programs/scripts in Lua and once you find the modding API documentation and understand how to use it. All you then need to do is writing code that does what you want. It takes time, but it is absolutely possible. I made my first mod (one that I actually used and that was not for learning only) a few days after I started learning how to do it.
Yea, Minetest's lua is my second language I'm learning. First one was TI-Basic (not too proud of that one) so I do apologize if I'm basically asking for the answers to be hand-fed for me, but that's basically what I'm looking for lol.
To contrast, Roblox's lua has a bunch of "hand-fed" information on coding stuff.

I guess its a popularity problem.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by ThorfinnS » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 19:33
To be clear when I repeated "minetest sucks" I was being somewhat sarcastic, It doesn't *actually* suck lol.
I just stated my problems with it, but I'm not like avidly hating on anything.
rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 03:00
But if you're reading the modding book in less than 10 minutes, you're not taking it in. The modding book covers all the main areas of the API. It aims to explain concepts rather than exhaustively documenting everything. For that, you need to use the Lua API reference. There are problems with the Lua API reference, I would like to see work to improve it
You have a point. I was reading it in ten minutes because most of the stuff there has already been taught before. Newer concepts are much harder to find information on, and the Lua API reference lacks examples like the modding book does.
For example, the modding book has sample init.luas that have multiple lines of code working together. The API does not. (also I have no prior knowledge of coding lua so im a bit stupid)
Minetest is one of the more accessible to modders. Much of the code for mods to Dwarf Fortress is in Lua, but unlike Minetest, the first step is to reverse engineer the game data structures. There is no API documentation at all. And for a while tools like CheatEngine didn't work because of the anti-cheating code Toady thought important to write into a single player game still in pre-alpha.

Terraria, Harvest Moon and My Time at Portia are pretty similar, though the modding is generally in C++. Again, you have to wait for 3rd parties to reverse engineer the structures and prepare an API, though with the exception of Terraria, they were not continually updated, so the API had to be built only once.

-----

OK, enough digression. Here's the important part.

I find the docs for Minetest, um, somewhat less than useful, but there's always someone who figured it out. Just grab all the mods that do the kinds of things you want, and look at how they coded it. Don't know how to use a given method? Just search your entire mod directory. Someone got that to work.

Lots of people recommend a variety of Lua programming environments, which are fine, I guess, but more than you need for most uses. I find a program called Notepad++ works fine for my needs, and includes a "Find in Files" so in seconds you can get a plethora of working examples.

Another bonus of Notepad++ is it easily allows you to build a collection of snippets of code that you regularly use that you can insert just by double-clicking on a list, then make some small tweaks, rather than trying to remember the syntax.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

ThorfinnS wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 20:19
I find the docs for Minetest, um, somewhat less than useful, but there's always someone who figured it out. Just grab all the mods that do the kinds of things you want, and look at how they coded it. Don't know how to use a given method? Just search your entire mod directory. Someone got that to work.
yea, I do that. Basically, anything I don't know about, I try looking for a mod that already is made for me, and then I borrow some snippet of code to use with my own. But it would be better if we had better documentation and tutorials.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

ThorfinnS wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 20:19
Another bonus of Notepad++ is it easily allows you to build a collection of snippets of code that you regularly use that you can insert just by double-clicking on a list, then make some small tweaks, rather than trying to remember the syntax.
Wow!! I never knew that! I guess the last time I used Notepad++ was 2-3 years ago, so this must be a new update. Very excited to try it out, thanks for the tip!

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

ShadMOrdre wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 17:01
I hear lots of complaining that others won't do the work, but no one rising up and contributing. PRs for "features" that aren't really engine features but game features does tend to overload a system.
I'm in no position to do so, I barely know lua, I created this forums account 2 days ago, and my history with Minetest is only a few years old, but I would absolutely love to be a "quality control" PR reviewer, if such a position exists.
Its fun, low effort, and hopefully reduces the overall amount of non-viable, "bad" PR requests.

As far as I see, most of the issues here cannot be fixed by normal humans, and only by core devs. So asking for someone to "rise up" only applies for making mods/games. (PR requests don't count cuz they don't go anywhere, remember?)

Even so, I would still love to review and sort out the PRs. Even if only a fraction of the PRs can be declined, the overall workload of the core devs will probably halve.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by rubenwardy » Post

LordPhyre wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 21:13
As far as I see, most of the issues here cannot be fixed by normal humans, and only by core devs. So asking for someone to "rise up" only applies for making mods/games. (PR requests don't count cuz they don't go anywhere, remember?)
I started out as a modder. I became a core dev after submitting PRs and helping review other PRs. Just because you're not a core dev doesn't mean that you can't review and test PRs
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by LordPhyre » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 21:37
. Just because you're not a core dev doesn't mean that you can't review and test PRs
Oh really? So I can just go right in the github, test some PRs, just like that?
Damn then how come nobody else is doing that lol.
I'm definitely gonna try, but i'm not sure where to start!

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by errant » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 00:05
The forums aren't representative, as they're an outdated medium and also had terrible performance issues last year. It's better to look at the Discord, the Matrix, Reddit, and online servers
I'm going to pitch in. I spent somewhere around 700 hours playing Minetest. I absolutely love screwing around with technic+digilines. Despite that, I have a tiny posting history.

How can you compare Discord, Reddit, and Mastodon to forums without joking? I'm beyond tired of this. The four don't even serve the same purpose.

The main advantage of a forum is how it retains and indexes discussion. Reddit is the option I would only consider if my project is so small and insignificant that I wouldn't bother acquiring a whole domain and VPS for. But Reddit is also just an awful place with a terrible community.

Aside from the first two being proprietary, if there are any bugs or workarounds exclusively discussed on Discord, I as a general user literally will not come across it as chatrooms are not indexed. They are perfectly fine for private communications with your friends, gaming clan, etc. You have to be joking to compare discord or ANY chatroom (IRC, Ventrilo, Mumble, Skype, Zoom) to a forum. Yes, you might be able to play tech support and interact with someone live to diagnose a problem. But each individual line for any other kind of discussion wouldn't be as well drafted or as long lived as a forum thread.

Mastodon is a hilariously fragmented social media site to the point searching for anything is a total joke. Imagine looking for mods across 50+ different instances with completely different timelines. No one really uses tags there either because the feature is poorly supported. Half of the instances on the fediverse are blocking each other because of personal drama-politics between admins and communities. There is literally some kind of eternal free-for-all flame war between libertarians, anarchists, feminists, and anime fans. Everyone else might not exist because they're not relevant enough for their posts to appear across different instances. Mastodon serves no real purpose than to copy mass marketing platforms like Twitter/Facebook without any of the VC-funded support that got those platforms popular in the first place.

Well played good sir. Your post was quality bait.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by rubenwardy » Post

errant wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 14:44
....
I wasn't baiting, nor was I saying that the other platforms are equivalent to the forums

I responding to a comment that the forums are dying/dead. My point is that users usually prefer to discuss on other platforms, such as Discord. The Discord server has more modding questions in a day than the forums has in a month.

I agree that it sucks that all these questions are in a walled garden and are unsearchable. The forums used to require all modding questions be asked in a single mega thread, I campaigned to replace this with individual threads so you could search for them. But the Discord hasn't been broken for years on end, unlike the forums were until recently.

TL;DR: the use of walled gardens sucks, but PhpBB and poor hosting sucks as well. The reason that the forums in particular is seeing less use is because they were broken and barely usable until recently
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 15:28
errant wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 14:44
....
I wasn't baiting, nor was I saying that the other platforms are equivalent to the forums

I responding to a comment that the forums are dying/dead. My point is that users usually prefer to discuss on other platforms, such as Discord. The Discord server has more modding questions in a day than the forums has in a month.

I agree that it sucks that all these questions are in a walled garden and are unsearchable. The forums used to require all modding questions be asked in a single mega thread, I campaigned to replace this with individual threads so you could search for them. But the Discord hasn't been broken for years on end, unlike the forums were until recently.

TL;DR: the use of walled gardens sucks, but PhpBB and poor hosting sucks as well. The reason that the forums in particular is seeing less use is because they were broken and barely usable until recently
Discord is NOT official. The unique official channel is the forums.

I would like more official social tools.

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by runs » Post

errant wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 14:44
rubenwardy wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 00:05
The forums aren't representative, as they're an outdated medium and also had terrible performance issues last year. It's better to look at the Discord, the Matrix, Reddit, and online servers
I'm going to pitch in. I spent somewhere around 700 hours playing Minetest. I absolutely love screwing around with technic+digilines. Despite that, I have a tiny posting history.

How can you compare Discord, Reddit, and Mastodon to forums without joking? I'm beyond tired of this. The four don't even serve the same purpose.

The main advantage of a forum is how it retains and indexes discussion. Reddit is the option I would only consider if my project is so small and insignificant that I wouldn't bother acquiring a whole domain and VPS for. But Reddit is also just an awful place with a terrible community.

Aside from the first two being proprietary, if there are any bugs or workarounds exclusively discussed on Discord, I as a general user literally will not come across it as chatrooms are not indexed. They are perfectly fine for private communications with your friends, gaming clan, etc. You have to be joking to compare discord or ANY chatroom (IRC, Ventrilo, Mumble, Skype, Zoom) to a forum. Yes, you might be able to play tech support and interact with someone live to diagnose a problem. But each individual line for any other kind of discussion wouldn't be as well drafted or as long lived as a forum thread.

Mastodon is a hilariously fragmented social media site to the point searching for anything is a total joke. Imagine looking for mods across 50+ different instances with completely different timelines. No one really uses tags there either because the feature is poorly supported. Half of the instances on the fediverse are blocking each other because of personal drama-politics between admins and communities. There is literally some kind of eternal free-for-all flame war between libertarians, anarchists, feminists, and anime fans. Everyone else might not exist because they're not relevant enough for their posts to appear across different instances. Mastodon serves no real purpose than to copy mass marketing platforms like Twitter/Facebook without any of the VC-funded support that got those platforms popular in the first place.

Well played good sir. Your post was quality bait.
Yes, Mastodon is a fiasco and is very broken. The communities are poor and fragmented,

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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by rubenwardy » Post

runs wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 16:12
Discord is NOT official. The unique official channel is the forums.

I would like more official social tools.
Discord is official now https://www.minetest.net/get-involved/
It was made official earlier this year after it reached 1000 users organically
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Linuxdirk
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Re: Why should anyone become involved in minetest?

by Linuxdirk » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 16:20
Discord is official now https://www.minetest.net/get-involved/
… and another proprietary service is now an essential part of the development of this free and open source software.

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