Discord is official now?!

Grubler
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by Grubler » Post

I disagree with what ya said about me, you know, haha. I was trying to put effort into things. I am not sure why some people may have felt otherwise, but it wasn't true so... yeah... I am not sure what to say any further, so I guess I will leave it there?

So is it okay if I make a server on discord? I am not sure how to run such a thing, but if that is okay, I guess it just lets me, so uh.. if that may be helpful to anyone, here you go? https://discord.gg/TUR6MTge7Y

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ywwv
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by ywwv » Post

benrob0329 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 03:17
ywwv, in all honesty your reputation proceeded you from the forums, mainly for how irritating some people find you. You proved to be a nuisance, consistently spouting your delusions of grandeur and superiority while putting down others. We are not obliged to provide the community outlet to anyone in particular, and if someone proves to be for the worse of the community, we reserve the right to exclude them from our area of jurisdiction. To be even more frank with you: some of the things you have said or implied here are bordering on slander, and I'm somewhat surprised that it falls within acceptable behavior on the forums. If you could cut it out with the whole superiority complex you hold up, maybe a ban appeal would be worthwhile.
I think your post is very comical. especially the thinly veiled threats about censorship. its a good thing that you're powerless here. I have only candidly described my experiences with your community in my posts. Maybe you could focus on improving it instead of wishing out loud that you could silence me. I did not bother anyone, but rather was subjected to the grudges and whims of your many bothersome members, who by their seniority were exempted from all rules of conduct, while I was courteous and patient as possible while speaking with them.

All moderation actions taken against me were unfounded and wrong; rather it was the opposite; your community saw me as an outlet for their childish hatred, and then muted and eventually banned me for simply continuing to speak. I will recall my experiences thusly:

1) a moderator swore at me and then muted me when I called him a computer janitor (this was simply to . fit in with the banter and was much more restrained than anything that was said to me). I noticed he was demoted shortly after this incidient.

2) a few users decided to harass me over my refusal to use the modern discord "reply" feature which I am not capable of using because I use an open source client. so I was muted again for standing up for open source software.

3) I posted a link to the digital Michelangelo project and explained that it could be digitized into minetest as an isosurface. (http://graphics.stanford.edu/data/mich/) . I was then banned immediately. I don't know what was offensive about this at all. You can see it for yourself in your archives.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by benrob0329 » Post

ywwv wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 05:03
benrob0329 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 03:17
ywwv, in all honesty your reputation proceeded you from the forums, mainly for how irritating some people find you. You proved to be a nuisance, consistently spouting your delusions of grandeur and superiority while putting down others. We are not obliged to provide the community outlet to anyone in particular, and if someone proves to be for the worse of the community, we reserve the right to exclude them from our area of jurisdiction. To be even more frank with you: some of the things you have said or implied here are bordering on slander, and I'm somewhat surprised that it falls within acceptable behavior on the forums. If you could cut it out with the whole superiority complex you hold up, maybe a ban appeal would be worthwhile.
I think your post is very comical. especially the thinly veiled threats about censorship. its a good thing that you're powerless here. I have only candidly described my experiences with your community in my posts. Maybe you could focus on improving it instead of wishing out loud that you could silence me. I did not bother anyone, but rather was subjected to the grudges and whims of your many bothersome members, who by their seniority were exempted from all rules of conduct, while I was courteous and patient as possible while speaking with them.

All moderation actions taken against me were unfounded and wrong; rather it was the opposite; your community saw me as an outlet for their childish hatred, and then muted and eventually banned me for simply continuing to speak. I will recall my experiences thusly:

1) a moderator swore at me and then muted me when I called him a computer janitor (this was simply to . fit in with the banter and was much more restrained than anything that was said to me). I noticed he was demoted shortly after this incidient.

2) a few users decided to harass me over my refusal to use the modern discord "reply" feature which I am not capable of using because I use an open source client. so I was muted again for standing up for open source software.

3) I posted a link to the digital Michelangelo project and explained that it could be digitized into minetest as an isosurface. (http://graphics.stanford.edu/data/mich/) . I was then banned immediately. I don't know what was offensive about this at all. You can see it for yourself in your archives.
First, nothing I posted was a threat. You have badmouthed my fellow staff members and said things which have are dubious at best to try to deface us, I stated that I didn't think this would be acceptable behavior on the forums.

Second, yes, Jordach was demoted for a variety of reasons, it was quite a while after you were banned however.

Third, what I have seen (and am currently seeing in the logs) is that you were treated pretty civilly when you joined, and not long into it you started with comments such as "I know that . english is a difficult langue . so its OK to take your time reading my posts", which comes off very derogatory (which we explained numerous times). You did not listen, and yes, other members poked fun at your odd punctuation style (to which you acted like you had a superior knowledge of English). Did some of the banter go too far? Probably, but from what I can see you brought a lot of this on yourself and showed (and still show) no signs of changing course.

Fourth, it was not your link to the isosurface site which got you banned, it was the derogatory statement that preceded it (which you conveniently failed to mention). For context (which is available in the Discord logs, would be nice if we could figure out a way to mirror these to the web for easy citation) it was a reply to a comment made by wsor stating that ywwv was trolling in a beginner's post asking how to get started by bringing up the opposite of a beginner's task (the isosurface website integration with MT). You then responded the next day with "sorry but you might not have the background required to participate and understand that discussion. so its important to have the humiliy to understand these topics. but i'll clarify it for you [...]". Certainly not your worst response, but it was the straw which broke the camel's back, and wsor promptly banned you for it.

Was it a perfect transaction? No, few moderator actions are. But the lack of information in your post brings me to my final point:

For some reason, every time the Discord Guild gets brought up, there's a handful of people who have been banned from it who like to badmouth us and make us seem unreasonable. I don't understand why, but they seem quite upset at it, despite not wanting to make an effort to actually convince us they've changed and should be allowed back in. Public displays of hijacking every post about it to complain about how our staff is unfair or rude or what have you will not get you back in, and I'm frankly tired of feeling like everyone thinks that MTD is all drama and nothing constructive is ever discussed there.

Stop spreading MTD drama everywhere else in the community. It's immature, it's annoying, and there are better uses of your time. If you have an issue with our management and wish for publicly complain, make your own threads and post there. (Note: this is a personal request, and not that of any official forum staff).

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ywwv
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by ywwv » Post

sorry but I think that this is a very generous reading of the behaviour of your userbase. I remember the chat speeding up and many users deciding to nitpick and dogpile on any perceived error in my writing just to have an excuse to attack me. I'm not sure if you picked up on these social cues. but it was a simple response to people who were interacting with me in a very disingenuous and hostile way.

I did not bother to mention it; it was just a response to that user's outrageous idea that I should be banned for posting an on-topic, useful and relevant reply to that thread about italian monuments. I beleived that he did not understand these topics and was reading into it in an unproductive way. I think that was much more inflammatory and I was simply . matching the level of banter that seems to be common in your community.

I would not assume that a newcomer to minetest is not a technical person. knowledge of isosurfaces and voxels pre-exists this community. it was simply an interesting resource for the right person to exploit.

I think that it was a threat in the sense that you'd prefer my posts to not be here and you said as much. that's all . in my experience with your staff it's awalys been acceptable for them or people they like to behave in a certain way. and this creates a set of social norms and expectations that mediate all discussions. however anyone else is beholden to these social norms and yet is also beholden to a reading of the rules that is incompatible with them. I think it is obvious that any insults I said to anyone in your server were simply to participate in these social norms. I have never had a serious interaction on your server that did not begin without someone else either agressively or passive agressively degrading me. so you have to understand the social dynamic that contextualizes these things.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by daret » Post

Jordach wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 13:19
Jesus fucking wet, can you cry any harder that people are using what they want to use rather than what you want people to use. It's not up to your complaining ass to solve project related social media out. That falls to c55 and those within the Minetest organisation on GitHub. This is why software extremists like you give open open source a bad reputation.
Jordach, why are you so rude?
Wuzzy just expressed his opinion. He doesn't like proprietary sw. Wuzzy made more for Minetest than most other users, so Jordach stop crying about crying and apologize.

The question is good. Should open source project like Minetest mess up with closed solution like Discord?

I personally see nothing bad on it.
Discord is obviously very popular, so why not use it to make Minetest more popular.
I see FOSS as better way, but in some cases proprietary sw is not always evil.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by Linuxdirk » Post

benrob0329 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 06:32
I think your post is very comical.
You should not argue with the village idiot. Just put them on ignore like everyone else :)

On-topic: To me it was a mistake making a closed-source 3rd-party software an official communication channel instead of giving people reasons to not use it.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by freshreplicant » Post

Though I didn't really agree when the Discord was made official, I’m not sure making it unofficial now will be productive. It might just stir people up and make them that much more committed to staying on there.

I respect people’s rights to choose whatever software they want to use, even though I think supporting privacy violating software ultimately hurts them and the other users they trap with the network effect.

Apart from the privacy angle, the utter dependence of ‘Free and Open Source Software’ projects on proprietary platforms is really worrying, especially when it comes to where the real community activity happens...nevermind the whole argument around being hosted on GitHub. If the activity around these projects was even split 50/50 between open source and proprietary software tools it wouldn’t be so bad, but many FOSS projects don’t even have any presence on non-proprietary platforms at all and the only way to get involved is a Discord server. That should not be the default, but it pretty much has become the case.

Minetest might have an IRC and also a Matrix server (after lots and lots of fighting around the latter) but so much activity is happening on the Discord that isn’t bridged or carried over that you’re essentially given two choices: exist on the periphery of the community or give in and use proprietary tools like Discord. That would be fair enough for a proprietary project, but it’s a terrible dynamic for a FOSS project.

While the development of the engine itself is happening on IRC, very few mods, games or community projects are actively represented on the Matrix or IRC servers, so much so that I genuinely thought that some of the innovative projects I knew about from the Minetest Discord (before I finally decided to delete my account) had died off totally. Many people on the forums, IRC and Matrix probably don’t even know about some of these projects at all. That’s not a slight imbalance or skew towards the proprietary; it’s so bad that if the Minetest community (in-game excluded) were represented as a body, then the truly open source parts of it would be the appendix. This could also hurt adoption, because if you don't log into the Discord, you'd be forgiven for thinking the project is stagnant.

Once proprietary software and people who can’t see themselves using anything else gain critical mass within free software communities, they tend to get more and more vocal and hostile to preserving or cultivating that project’s commitment to the freedoms inherent in free software. People start suggesting integrating the project with proprietary tools like Discord directly and are disappointed or angry when these ideas get shot down. You also start hearing more and more complaints about people dedicated to free software being ‘hostile’ or ‘backwards’ because of their commitment to preserving the ideals in these projects. Communities dedicated to free software projects are vanishingly small outposts in a world of software dominated by proprietary software and its users. That’s even more so true for communities for such projects which are actually hosted on free software tools.

When you start chipping away at these ideals from the inside of these communities it’s like being a member of the only stamp collecting club in your town, declaring that stamps are boring and that basketball cards are much cooler and that they should now be part of the club, then getting defensive when people remind you it’s a stamp collecting club. There are plenty of games and communities that don’t give a rats arse about free software - far, far, far more than ones that do. You’re not being pressured or forced to use free software, if anything for most of us it’s the other way around.


All that dramatic and philosophical shite aside, some practical ideas:

1. Bridge the Discord fully or partially to some free software platform, even if some of the bridges for Matrix and IRC are finnicky or unreliable. It’s better to bridge even partially rather than nothing at all. If Discord is bridged to Matrix, a nested Minetest Discord Bridge space can be created, so that there is still a Matrix only space for people who do not want to be bridged to Discord at all.

2. Support and encourage participation on Matrix and other FOSS platforms. This is a bit tricky, but maybe there could be mini-competitions or projects that are reserved for IRC or Matrix. I know that sounds like a reverse of the Discord ‘black box’ problem, but again, Minetest is a free software project so encouraging the use of such tools seems fairy logical. It also doesn’t stop others from continuing to use Discord. For competitions like the game jam, maybe there could be a small bonus if you or your team are active on IRC or Matrix (I’d be willing to contribute in this regard).

3. For ‘official’ matters or events, there should be a commitment and guarantee that planning, discussion and work takes place in spaces 100% accessible without use of proprietary tools. Community projects could also be encouraged to have some presence on the forums, IRC or Matrix.

4. It wouldn’t hurt to have short disclaimers on the Minetest website that Discord is proprietary and has some serious privacy concerns associated with it. If these channels are bridged to IRC or Matrix, users could be encouraged to participate in these through the free software side of the bridge (so at least they don’t have to have proprietary clients installed). Links to good, non-inflammatory explanations of FOSS/libre software might also be useful.


While I don’t think Minetest should suddenly force people to use Matrix or IRC or try to force them to delete their Discord account, I think it’s perfectly fine for the project to be firm and proud about its commitment to free software ideals. Just set a good example and let people decide whether they want to follow in your footsteps or not.
Last edited by freshreplicant on Mon Nov 29, 2021 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

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celeron55
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by celeron55 » Post

Those are some pretty good points.

Bridging more of the Discord rooms to Matrix or IRC seems like a good starting point to dealing with the mentioned issues. And I don't have anything against labeling proprietary services as such on the official website.

We probably can't tell people what services to use, but we can keep people informed and we can make sure people on both proprietary and free services can keep up with what others are doing.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by DELTA_FORCE » Post

There is already an existing bridge in the Minetest IRC channels I believe, although to prevent spam I believe it is locked behind a role that requires a certain amount of experience.
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by freshreplicant » Post

DELTA_FORCE wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 22:06
There is already an existing bridge in the Minetest IRC channels I believe, although to prevent spam I believe it is locked behind a role that requires a certain amount of experience.
But to my knowledge that's only a single channel, right? So discussions in the Discord's #general, #mods, etc. channels are not bridged with IRC or Matrix?

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by DELTA_FORCE » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 22:56
But to my knowledge that's only a single channel, right? So discussions in the Discord's #general, #mods, etc. channels are not bridged with IRC or Matrix?
One would be almost thankful that they are not. There is hardly any conversation that would be worth bridging.
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by wsor4035 » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 22:56
But to my knowledge that's only a single channel, right? So discussions in the Discord's #general, #mods, etc. channels are not bridged with IRC or Matrix?
its three, minetest irc, minetest hub, minetest dev
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by Astrobe » Post

Discord is where FOSS users are and where FOSS supporters don't go.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by LMD » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 19:38
Discord is where FOSS users are and where FOSS supporters don't go.
A few questions:

- Are supporters not users?
- Do you consider developers supporters?
- Is Discord where FOSS developers are?
- Are developers not users?

All in all an overgeneralization.
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by Linuxdirk » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 19:38
Discord is where FOSS users are and where FOSS supporters don't go.
Understandable that FOSS supporters don’t use Discord since Discord is no FOSS.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by Astrobe » Post

LMD wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 21:36
Astrobe wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 19:38
Discord is where FOSS users are and where FOSS supporters don't go.
A few questions:

- Are supporters not users?
- Do you consider developers supporters?
- Is Discord where FOSS developers are?
- Are developers not users?

All in all an overgeneralization.
Developers are not necessarily supporters, because they can be proprietary software developers who use FOSS software in their products or to develop their products (e.g. Irrlcht, Emacs, GCC). For the same reason, developers may not be the actual users of the product they develop (e.g. you can develop autopilots without being a pilot). And yes, you can support FOSS by contributing e.g. a translation of the documentation for software you don't use, or by continuing to maintain a mod for a game you don't play anymore.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by AccidentallyRhine » Post

I've seen a number of FOSS communities sadly absorbed into the centralized trap that is discord. Still, I will never use it. Even if I wanted to (🤮), there is no binary released for PowerPC linuxes.

EDIT: This highlights the fact that no single free software implementation is safe from the fate of being overtaken by some proprietary crap which caters to the lowest common denominator. We all take some free and open things for granted, but how long before the HTML based web gets overtaken too?

I remember when it was commonplace for game servers to advertise their Mumble instances. You could host your own server (for real, on you own metal) with no barriers to entry and no data collection. Dear lord, take me back to those times.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by LMD » Post

AccidentallyRhine wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 15:44
Still, I will never use it. Even if I wanted to (🤮), there is no binary released for PowerPC linuxes.
You don't need "PowerPC binaries". In fact, running it in a browser is preferrable as a kind of sandboxing. The official binaries use Electron, which is effectively a stripped down browser engine. There is hardly any disadvantage to running Discord in the browser, both in terms of functionality and performance.
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Re: Discord is official now?!

by AccidentallyRhine » Post

LMD wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 18:02
AccidentallyRhine wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 15:44
Still, I will never use it. Even if I wanted to (🤮), there is no binary released for PowerPC linuxes.
You don't need "PowerPC binaries". In fact, running it in a browser is preferrable as a kind of sandboxing. The official binaries use Electron, which is effectively a stripped down browser engine. There is hardly any disadvantage to running Discord in the browser, both in terms of functionality and performance.
Thanks for the details. This is not me trying to shoot down your advice, just me elaborating on myself: I generally don't use web apps either since I block javascript universally. If they ever decide to open their code, even to something moderate in the way that Telegram do, maybe then I'd take a second look.

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Re: Discord is official now?!

by ywwv » Post

you can post on discord using an open-source 3rd party client. that isn't the problem. the issue is the lack of end-to-end encryption and centralized provider. its similar to IRC in this way- it is not functionally less private than IRC, which is similarly consolidated into just a few centralized providers. we just have higher standards today for what a chat software does.

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