Leaving ContentDB

ShadMOrdre
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by ShadMOrdre » Post

Maybe off topic, but I gotta ask a burning question.

If I've included the license and attributions within the code, can you legally alter the code that contains the attributions and license, removing the attributions and license embedded within the code?


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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by TenPlus1 » Post

Some good questions ShadMOdre, with the onset of AI assisted code and images what happens to the original licenses?

If we had a specific license heading for "shared by permission but not distributable" that would solve a lot of license woes for the some of the textures I obtain, without the need to put my crappy drawing skills in effect to replace them, or hound the original author to add an actual license for it's use.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by cj_clippy » Post

Ah shucks. I use 14 TenPlus1 mods on my server. I was sad to see the mods disappear from ContentDB. I really love ContentDB for the ease of finding new mods to try. Also love the CLI tools for downloading the mods just like I download packages from npm.

But I kinda get it.. ContentDB is really strict, and the mods I've posted have all been scrutinized. It's kinda funny how it seems code quality doesn't get addressed, but the license does.

Anyway, I understand both viewpoints. ContentDB has to protect themselves, because of the world we live in; lawsuits will ruin anybody's day.

I haven't been writing mods for long, but I'm starting to understand the job of a mod maintainer. It's work, usually unpaid. People get upset, demand things for nothing in return. It's a struggle to make things happen, and there are hurdles at every step.

I suppose this is a FOSS problem in general. Most open source projects are fueled by ideals, not money. There are pros and cons there, but I can see how it would simply be not worth the effort to participate.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by ShadMOrdre » Post

With maybe the exception of the Minetest Mods collection, I'd be willing to bet that many packages on CDB may not be appropriately licensed, code wise. How many MIT licensed projects are hosted? That license has been claimed to be non FOSS by some here in the community. What about Apache licenses, which are really non free, due to the restrictions?

Are some projects "ignored", due to the contributor being a core dev or otherwise VIP community member? Think how sparse content would be in the ContentDB, if some older, very popular mods were otherwise "banned". The loss of Ethereal from CDB should not be taken lightly! What's next, 3d_armor, or some other mod, whose author is no longer available, and thus licensing won't be corrected. This puts Technic, (whose author was RBA, rip), and other mods like valleys_c, geomoria, and other popular mods at risk, unless someone forks them, which would be dubious if the original license is suspect.

A VERY clear statement about accepted licenses, or more specifically, a detailed list of approved licenses, both code and media, should be clearly posted.

While we're at attribution, and thus, proper licensing, I'm still waiting for attribution for a screenshot in the May blog post. I know it's my screenshot, because that mapgen, with those mods, wasn't available until mg_earth. Non of the mods were attributed, either. Apercy's blimp in the screenshot was properly attributed, since the article was about Steampunk Blimp, a very excellent mod! Just saying......

Do I need to provide a license for all my screenshot posts? Does the forum not at least adhere to CC BY-SA 3.0 for screenshots, or are posts considered non-licensed or how do we treat this non discussed issue?


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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by Blockhead » Post

ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 02:06
Just asking....
This is getting kind of off-topic but I'll respond..
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 02:06
To whom do I attribute with AI created graphics, when those AI graphics are being built using a dataset that is "questionably" licensed? Do we think that we can trace the owners of those images? Reubenwardy pointed to the AI that was able to create Minetest code. To whom do we properly, legally attribute for the single line of code that registers a node. To celeron55, the dev that helped with the Lua API, the first modder, reubenwardys mod book?
Whether you used a website/SaaS or ran the program locally, you still used the output of a program. That program was received under a licence which should be available in writing. If not, it's pretty dodgy and I would avoid it. The licence terms will dictate how/if to attribute and all other matters of using the images.
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 02:06
I guarantee that those datasets were built using Googles image database, and all content from Sourceforge, GitThis, GitThat, and all other FOSS compliant projects, regardless of host.

So where is the line drawn in regards to having to supply the "chain" of custody licences. How far back does one need to attribute? Obviously, to the original. So where is the proper attribution for AI created content, who gets the attribution, and can you guarantee the even the MASS of Minecraft content was not included in the AI created image, so as to avoid the legal tangle?
This is still a field on the very edge of technology which I've not heard of legislation catching up to at all. We will have to determine if these kinds of algorithms are treated the same as a human author independent, a human author working for a company, or in some entirely new way (which is either a double standard or a sensible solution depending on who you ask). For now the best I can say is that regardless of where the image came from, human or AI, if it bears too much similarity to existing works then it is still infringing unless used under the licence of the 'original' work. For instance if AI produced output eerily similar to a CC-BY SA texture from a Minetest mod for ContentDB, then it could work under that licence. If it produced a veeery similar texture to a Minecraft texture, it would stay all rights reserved. I am deriving this from the idea of a 'derivative work' which I think is easy to establish as a case for AI since if the texture is in the AI's dataset, then it's probably 'derived' its output from it in some way. Likewise a human who 'just happened' to draw a texture eerily similar to a Minecraft one couldn't prove they didn't copy it from Minecraft - but I'm not sure legally who has the burden of proof in such cases.
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 02:06
This gets really comlex, for a "hobbyist, community driven, in our spare time, hoping to capture some of the fame of the Other game..." FOSS project. Some would argue that because MT itself is licenced LGPL v2.1, and that all content created for such a licensed project, would require that ALL available content be licensed the same. This excludes all other FOSS compatible licences that are not LGPLv2.1. Why? Derivative work! It is derivative in that it simply wouldn't be created for MT, if there were no MT.
You've missed the point of the LGPL and the relation of mods to Minetest. Minetest mods are Lua programs that use Minetest's API. The "L" in GNU Lesser General Public License was previously "Library" which describes its function pretty well too. By the LGPL, you are allowed to link against Minetest as a shared library in a proprietary program, you just can't use a modified version of Minetest with that proprietary program without also releasing your changes made to Minetest under the LGPL.

It has also been shown that APIs are copyrightable, which I think precludes a proprietary implementation of the Minetest Modding API - any alternative implementation would I think have to be LPGL-licensed itself. Of course it's hard to conceive of a proprietary Minetest I suppose, at least outside of all the dodgy iOS apps that run on Minetest protocol and presumably singleplayer uses the same API as well.. actually maybe it's not that hard. There's always someone.

The conclusion of the above two paragraphs is that no, mods aren't derived works and you can make them proprietary; but also that they use an LGPL-licensed API which can't be reimplemented by a non-LGPL application (or LGPL-compatible like GPL, AGPL). Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, especially not a Finnish one :)
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 02:06
Just asking....

To whom do I attribute with AI created graphics, when those AI graphics are being built using a dataset that is "questionably" licensed? Do we think that we can trace the owners of those images? Reubenwardy pointed to the AI that was able to create Minetest code. To whom do we properly, legally attribute for the single line of code that registers a node. To celeron55, the dev that helped with the Lua API, the first modder, reubenwardys mod book?

I guarantee that those datasets were built using Googles image database, and all content from Sourceforge, GitThis, GitThat, and all other FOSS compliant projects, regardless of host.

So where is the line drawn in regards to having to supply the "chain" of custody licenses. How far back does one need to attribute? Obviously, to the original. So where is the proper attribution for AI created content, who gets the attribution, and can you guarantee the even the MASS of Minecraft content was not included in the AI created image, so as to avoid the legal tangle?

This gets really comlex, for a "hobbyist, community driven, in our spare time, hoping to capture some of the fame of the Other game..." FOSS project. Some would argue that because MT itself is licenced LGPL v2.1, and that all content created for such a licensed project, would require that ALL available content be licensed the same. This excludes all other FOSS compatible licenses that are not LGPLv2.1. Why? Derivative work! It is derivative in that it simply wouldn't be created for MT, if there were no MT.

This will probably draw scrutiny for my gal mod. Please, point out the licensing issues. I'm sure there are some. But, then, plantlife, moretrees, cool trees, moreplants, Farlands, valleys, valleys_c, ethereal, default, and many others should draw the same scrutiny, since that is where the bulk of gals' content originates.

And wondering, is code on CDB getting the same level of scrutiny, since reviewing code is FAR more work involved that viewing an image?


Shad
AI products are unique, untraceable and unrepeatable, so the prompter, that is, you are the owner, you put the license.

That's why many are afraid, it will not even visually differentiate. Shutterstock I think, they banned uploading AI content, but who says what you upload is AI or not?
Well yes, in instagram the authors start to upload not only the final work but the process of creation in video.

And I notice a lot of anger from people who are not artists against the artists, a lot of them say: before we depended on you, now f#ck you, with a simple mouse click I do what you did in many hours. I create a wonderful cover for my book, or a Van Gogh style painting. In other words, the envious people of talent.

Lately all my banners are created by AI, and I put it with CC4 license, if I didn't put it would be the same, but with my copyright.

Get used to see works created with AI with copyright. DaLLE creates a mark in the lower right corner, but you can edit it in Gimp. They could create a watermark, but without having much idea, I think it would be easily salvageable.

The database? Well, artists use to get inspired, that is, they used to buy books by other artists, copy from the masters, look at pinterest for inspiration. The IA does the same, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Times change. The IA revolution has arrived, either you join the wave or you drown, like the ice makers when the refrigerators arrived or the stagecoach drivers when the car arrived.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

landscape1.jpeg
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landscape2.jpeg
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For example. In 5 secons Ive created 5 Minecraft landscapes COPYRIGHTED by me. I sell them to whoever wants them at 5 euros.

prompt: a minecraft landscape in style of ###, realistic, a character is fishing, sun rising, anime style
https://aqualxx.github.io/stable-ui/
Model: Anything Diffusion (anime)

The ### style could be Walt Disney or not. It is Minecraft or Minetest. Who knows? Hahaha.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

Are some projects "ignored", due to the contributor being a core dev or otherwise VIP community member? Think how sparse content would be in the ContentDB, if some older, very popular mods were otherwise "banned". The loss of Ethereal from CDB should not be taken lightly! What's next, 3d_armor, or some other mod, whose author is no longer available, and thus licensing won't be corrected. This puts Technic, (whose author was RBA, rip), and other mods like valleys_c, geomoria, and other popular mods at risk, unless someone forks them, which would be dubious if the original license is suspect.
There is no need to be dramatic. It's not banning, it's suspending until clarified or corrected. And it sure wasn't all their mods. What happens is that he deleted them all from ContentDB.

For example I am calm about The Samz, because I created myself pixel by pixel all the textures. I know I will never have a problem with it.

For example I got suspended from Petz for using bad licenses in the sounds, I changed them, it took me hours and days of work but I did it. For a texture of a Petz item I had taken quickly from Internet a texture of a guy from a forum, I was going to change it, simply I used it to make some testing, I swear, but I forgot and I uploaded it as it was, and it turns out that it was original from Minecraft Game!!! (a very rare texture), and I didn't know it! After a year a Petz user told me by private msg and I changed it quickly, nobody knew about it (until today, ha, ha, ha).

I don't mind the scrutiny. I prefer that and that things are correct.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

Also thanks to Minetest I now use free licenses in my work. Whether they are quotes or images that I paste in documents, I do everything from OS sources, and I cite them at the end of the document, and if I can I do my work with free CC license at the end too.

Once a co-worker told me: "What difference does it make to use a copyrighted image or not? Who's going to find out? Don´t worry, bud". And the truth is that he was right because in the case he was talking about, if it was a local and limited thing and it is not going to be published on the Internet, nobody will ever find out.

But now I have become aware, it took me a long time, that things should not work like that. That if you do things right and respect the work of others the world would be a better place.

Well, but you have to know how to defend yourself, in the world there are a lot of sons of b@tch#s.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by LMD » Post

cj_clippy wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 07:09
It's kinda funny how it seems code quality doesn't get addressed, but the license does.

Anyway, I understand both viewpoints. ContentDB has to protect themselves, because of the world we live in; lawsuits will ruin anybody's day.
As you already hinted yourself, this is comparing apples and oranges:

Code quality is highly subjective and unlikely to cause any serious issues; ContentDB is not curated as you seem to be implying. Programmer art, sloppy sounds or stuff mods are (barring extreme cases) ignored by reviewers as well; it is up to (user) reviews to scrutinize all of these aspects.

Licensing on the other hand is very objective (you can simply check whether all files have proper license info attached) and copyright violations can lead to DMCA takedowns, which pose a danger to CDB's availability.
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by LMD » Post

runs wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:10
AI products are unique, untraceable and unrepeatable, so the prompter, that is, you are the owner, you put the license.
This appears to be plain wrong in German jurisdiction since the AI is not a human being; the work would thus be in Public Domain. Note however that the prompt / selection part of the process might be copyrightable.

For the US, you might be interested in Naruto v. Slater (the "monkey selfie" copyright dispute).
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by TenPlus1 » Post

I do tend to use freely licensed media for my mods if I cannot create it myself, and the textures I get permission to use for my mods specifically end up rejected because the author has not clearly licensed them in a way contentdb prefers. That doesn't mean that it is stolen or a bad idea to use media donated by other users, I welcome submissions from everyone and anyone which makes the mods more a community project than just my own. What I do have annoyance with is that mods are pulled from the site rather than simply messaging me or creating an issue and asking me to fix it, rather than making it an order or it will never be allowed. I agree that cdb should monitor all media and licenses but the way admin do so is aggressive and takes the joy out of creating for the community.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

LMD wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:05
runs wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:10
AI products are unique, untraceable and unrepeatable, so the prompter, that is, you are the owner, you put the license.
This appears to be plain wrong in German jurisdiction since the AI is not a human being; the work would thus be in Public Domain. Note however that the prompt / selection part of the process might be copyrightable.

For the US, you might be interested in Naruto v. Slater (the "monkey selfie" copyright dispute).
Erroneous and obsolete

Case 1
Right now you can download Stable Difussion and install it on your computer. There are predefined models or create your own model from your own database. You only need a 10 GB Nvidia RTX card to start creating digital images. There is no person in the world who can be 100% sure whether you or an AI will create it. And what's worse, you can disable ethical filters.

Case 2
You can create the most depraved images possible in the privacy of your home, photorealistic, even videos can already be made, people do not know how to distinguish between a real or a created image, there are already tets on the internet about it. Imagine an image of brutal torture. Is it lawful to do it for your privacy and never leave your home? And this case is the opposite of case 1. If so, could you prove that it is not a real image but one created by AI?

Some would say: ethics, but DALL-e said in March that they didn't want to make hyper-realistic images precisely because of that, but due to competition they have now backtracked, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Technology is advancing faster than society. It will have to make new laws. And it will take a while. And then there is the globalization thing, in Russia and China right now they will sweat what a German judge says.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

...

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

TenPlus1 wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:56
I do tend to use freely licensed media for my mods if I cannot create it myself, and the textures I get permission to use for my mods specifically end up rejected because the author has not clearly licensed them in a way contentdb prefers. That doesn't mean that it is stolen or a bad idea to use media donated by other users, I welcome submissions from everyone and anyone which makes the mods more a community project than just my own. What I do have annoyance with is that mods are pulled from the site rather than simply messaging me or creating an issue and asking me to fix it, rather than making it an order or it will never be allowed. I agree that cdb should monitor all media and licenses but the way admin do so is aggressive and takes the joy out of creating for the community.
They did the same thing to me and it didn't seem right. Then I thought about it and realized that they did the right thing.

Your anger is understandable.

I don't know what method would be more appropriate and polite. A warning with a three day limit? I really don't know. I think kinder messages from the moderators would do the trick. They tell you like you look like you committed a murder and they are going to give them a police merit badge.

I think that you should appeal to the community to help you and resubmit the mods little by little. When you get over the anger.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by Epoxum » Post

If you post a list of the media that's causing problems, I believe we as a community will be able to replace them in no time.

I consider your mods pretty much essential for Minetest Game and they should absolutely stay on ContentDB. I'll postpone the development of my mod and try to make some textures, just to help your mods stay.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by TenPlus1 » Post

Many thanks Epoxum, I've already replaced the farming melon textures thanks to alerikaisattera, the coffee crop textures thanks to XSSheep and popcorn textures thanks to smoke_th.

From what else I remember the beer glass and bourbon bottle in wine mod, sushi textures in ethereal mod and some sfx in ambiance mod that are noncommercial.

This is the issue though, even with all those replaced it's guaranteed that other media I have permission to use that aren't officially licensed will need replacing soon after, so changes will be slow.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by rudzik8 » Post

I understand you, TenPlus1.

On the top of all that, all these legal restrictions, reviewers are humans. And humans can act like crap sometimes, especially in the times when they're angry or annoyed or anything. I believe that's what happened with my mod, and I needed many ping messages, one tirade and few actually normal messages (that I usually send on package approvals) to make it finally publish and be approved. In this case, wsor just did an "initial look" and didn't give it any other looks for a really long time.
It's not like I hate wsor now, he's a good reviewer but sometimes this happens. And we shouldn't forget that reviewing packages is a hobby and nobody gets a salary from this thing, just like everything in open source it is done for fun.
I imagine how hard it would be for me if I didn't do most assets for myself and asked permission like you did... it would be a nightmare, especially when maintaining many mods.
As I can see some work is already done on fixing license issues, but there's more to come.

Good luck to you and all contributors!
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by isaiah658 » Post

TenPlus1 wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 18:53
Many thanks Epoxum, I've already replaced the farming melon textures thanks to alerikaisattera, the coffee crop textures thanks to XSSheep and popcorn textures thanks to smoke_th.

From what else I remember the beer glass and bourbon bottle in wine mod, sushi textures in ethereal mod and some sfx in ambiance mod that are noncommercial.
If you can put together a more official list, I'd be willing to help as well. Ideally it should be done in such a way that two people don't start remaking the same thing and do duplicate work. It's also helpful if you can specify the size of the texture (16x16, 32x32, etc) to keep them artistically consistent.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by Blockhead » Post

If Tenplus had left the packages up on ContentDB after receiving the reviews we'd be able to read the package review comments on his stuff right now to help him, as is it looks like they've all been deleted T_T
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by CalebJ » Post

Don't know all the details, but I'm sorry to hear that you received such treatment (Since you are a longtime user I believe you should have at least been treated with respect and talked to in private? Perhaps that could have avoided this fallout.) and I wish you luck with NotABug. Your mods have helped a lot to make minetest popular and fun over the years. Thank you TenPlus1!

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by ROllerozxa » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 01:57
If Tenplus had left the packages up on ContentDB after receiving the reviews we'd be able to read the package review comments on his stuff right now to help him, as is it looks like they've all been deleted T_T
Approval threads never get deleted, you can still find them through the threads list or by looking at threads for the package's internal ID (alternatively ask an editor). In general they are all part of the public record, and we only use private threads for things such as security vulnerabilities that need to be privately disclosed. Here's links to the approval threads for the packages I took down during the audit.

Farming Redo: https://content.minetest.net/threads/3635/
Ethereal NG: https://content.minetest.net/threads/2541/
Simple Skins: https://content.minetest.net/threads/3667/
Water Mobs: https://content.minetest.net/threads/3666/
Wine: https://content.minetest.net/threads/3664/

You can also see historical events that have happened, but only the most recent messages are relevant to this situation. Also yes, only 5 packages were affected out of TenPlus1's 40 or so packages, but he deleted all of his packages on his own accord.

Immediately taking down packages that have copyright issues requesting changes is our usual policy as it is our belief knowingly letting packages with license issues be publicly available and downloadable from the main menu would open us up to legal issues (and we're not alone in this, see GitHub taking down youtube-dl, or even YouTube's copyright policies in general, and they are massive corporations with actual paid legal teams).

Also, despite there being several times prior we've been notified of copyright issues in TenPlus1 mods, we did not take any additional action besides me taking down the packages and leaving a comment requesting clarification of licenses/replacing improperly licensed assets. He was not banned, his packages were not banned, they were simply taken down until they could be reinstated after the problems have been resolved. In terms of us giving special treatment to "VIP community members", TenPlus1 was even a "Trusted Member" on ContentDB but nobody is above copyright law. Not even editors. (sorry Wuzzy but it's a good example)

In fact, deleted packages on ContentDB do not get permanently deleted right away and we're able to undelete and restore them if wanted. We're more than happy to restore the packages that do not have any known copyright issues and make them available again if you'd like us to, and can rereview the packages that had issues and make those available again as well. Ask the community which textures (and sounds) in particular are needed and someone will most likely take you up on the offer (see the approval threads linked above and make a checklist of what's left to be replaced), as can be seen in this thread with AwesomeDragon97. :]

---
ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 07:26
How many MIT licensed projects are hosted? That license has been claimed to be non FOSS by some here in the community. What about Apache licenses, which are really non free, due to the restrictions?
MIT and Apache are still considered free licenses, they just don't provide the viral copyleft that GPL-likes provide. They may be called pushover or "cuck" licenses by some, but they're still FSF and OSI approved licenses that respect the freedoms of the user.

---

In addition, I should probably mention that yes, we should provide a lot more information about the ContentDB approval process and what we look at during review in terms of copyright and licensing going forward. We've had this discussion for a while among us editors and because of this we will most likely prioritise working on providing more information about this to modders, which should hopefully also lessen tensions during package reviews and takedowns.

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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

Mi contribution.

CC4-BY-SA by runs

Old Bourbon bottle was 28x28 so an 32x32 fit better.
Beer is 16x16, the same as old one.
items.png
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Attachments
wine_bourbon_bottle.png
wine_bourbon_bottle.png (806 Bytes) Viewed 1364 times
wine_beer_glass.png
wine_beer_glass.png (969 Bytes) Viewed 1364 times

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runs
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by runs » Post

isaiah658 wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 01:08
TenPlus1 wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 18:53
Many thanks Epoxum, I've already replaced the farming melon textures thanks to alerikaisattera, the coffee crop textures thanks to XSSheep and popcorn textures thanks to smoke_th.

From what else I remember the beer glass and bourbon bottle in wine mod, sushi textures in ethereal mod and some sfx in ambiance mod that are noncommercial.
If you can put together a more official list, I'd be willing to help as well. Ideally it should be done in such a way that two people don't start remaking the same thing and do duplicate work. It's also helpful if you can specify the size of the texture (16x16, 32x32, etc) to keep them artistically consistent.
I think duplicate items are better. To choose the better.

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TenPlus1
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Re: Leaving ContentDB

by TenPlus1 » Post

Thank you Runs and Epoxum, Wine mod has been updated with new licensed textures, also Ambiance non-commercial sounds have been replaced by freely licensed one's.

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