3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

Should Minetest be renamed?

Yes
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29%
No
33
56%
Neutral
9
15%
 
Total votes: 59

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Mr. Rar
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3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

Here are three arguments I thought of for why Minetest should not be renamed

In reference to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13510 (Where discussion of the topic is banned?!?)

1. Minetest is a game engine not a game. I wish Minetest were a game. But as it now stands, The Minetest Game that comes with every copy of Minetest is under a feature freeze (https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2710). It's basic and has some poorly designed features. To properly use the Minetest Game you need to install mods. The Minetest game is like Arch Linux, you get nothing and you have to figure out everything for yourself. If someone wants to rename the Minetest Game, I am cool with that. The Minetest engine does not need a fancy name because the focus should not be on the game engine, it should be on the games.

2. Renaming Minetest will lead to comfusion about its name. After renaming Minetest, references to the old name will still exist. This includes Minetest mods, the Minetest forums, blog posts, YouTube Videos, the Minetest API, Minetest DNS, etc. The old name will still need to be supported for the foreseeable future after renaming. Having two names will just cause confusion.

3. A good name doesn't make much of a difference. The important thing about a name is not the sound but what it references. If Minetest is renamed, the new name will still refer to the exact same software. Some people think that the only thing that Minetest lacks to brake out into the main stream is a good name. I think a better idea to make Minetest main stream is to fix all the problems. I guess Minetest is already kind of main stream because MultiCraft has 50 million download on Google Play. As long as a name does not a have some sort of negative connotation or is hard to remember, it's OK. Gimp and VLC have arguably poor names. Hasn't prevented them from becoming popular.

What are you're reasons for not renaming Minetest? Or do you have any counter arguments to my points?
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Zughy » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 17:22
In reference to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13510 (Where discussion of the topic is banned?!?)
Hello, issue creator here: the discussion is banned because the goal of the issue is to provide suggestions, not feedback about whether Minetest is a good name or not (the topic is surely controversial, bringing most likely to bikeshedding and infinite discussions; you can have a taste of what I mean by reading the linked IRC log in the issue). However, everyone is free to discuss it in the forum, which is in my opinion the most suited place for such things - it also doesn't spam people's mailbox, a thing that basically forces them to unsubscribe and that makes triagers' life hell (triaging is not a very fun task in general, don't make our lives worse pls). In short, I wanted to avoid something like the main menu redesign issue with its 260+ comments spread throughout the years: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6733

But hey, a few of us are surely reading these topics, so please continue :D

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 12:25
Mr. Rar wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 17:22
In reference to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13510 (Where discussion of the topic is banned?!?)
Hello, issue creator here: the discussion is banned because the goal of the issue is to provide suggestions, not feedback about whether Minetest is a good name or not (the topic is surely controversial, bringing most likely to bikeshedding and infinite discussions; you can have a taste of what I mean by reading the linked IRC log in the issue). However, everyone is free to discuss it in the forum, which is in my opinion the most suited place for such things - it also doesn't spam people's mailbox, a thing that basically forces them to unsubscribe and that makes triagers' life hell (triaging is not a very fun task in general, don't make our lives worse pls). In short, I wanted to avoid something like the main menu redesign issue with its 260+ comments spread throughout the years: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6733

But hey, a few of us are surely reading these topics, so please continue :D
OK. I can understand that. But it would be nice to have a link on that Github issue to an official external discussion thread. It might be too much work for you, but another idea would be to put all the suggestions in the first post and then allow the comments to be general discussion. Coming up with a good name might be a collaborative process. Someone might have ideas for how existing suggestions can be improved or what makes a name good in the first place.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by ancientmariner » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 17:22
Here are three arguments I thought of for why Minetest should not be renamed

In reference to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13510 (Where discussion of the topic is banned?!?)

1. Minetest is a game engine not a game. I wish Minetest were a game. But as it now stands, The Minetest Game that comes with every copy of Minetest is under a feature freeze (https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2710). It's basic and has some poorly designed features. To properly use the Minetest Game you need to install mods. The Minetest game is like Arch Linux, you get nothing and you have to figure out everything for yourself. If someone wants to rename the Minetest Game, I am cool with that. The Minetest engine does not need a fancy name because the focus should not be on the game engine, it should be on the games.

2. Renaming Minetest will lead to comfusion about its name. After renaming Minetest, references to the old name will still exist. This includes Minetest mods, the Minetest forums, blog posts, YouTube Videos, the Minetest API, Minetest DNS, etc. The old name will still need to be supported for the foreseeable future after renaming. Having two names will just cause confusion.

3. A good name doesn't make much of a difference. The important thing about a name is not the sound but what it references. If Minetest is renamed, the new name will still refer to the exact same software. Some people think that the only thing that Minetest lacks to brake out into the main stream is a good name. I think a better idea to make Minetest main stream is to fix all the problems. I guess Minetest is already kind of main stream because MultiCraft has 50 million download on Google Play. As long as a name does not a have some sort of negative connotation or is hard to remember, it's OK. Gimp and VLC have arguably poor names. Hasn't prevented them from becoming popular.

What are you're reasons for not renaming Minetest? Or do you have any counter arguments to my points?
1. ContentDB is central to Minetest, and getting content. Similar to how Roblox do it. It's a Smörgåsbord of weird and wonderful mods and games that anyone can consume. The people that download Minetest are the players, not the techies. Even if techies use it, it's still customer facing. What is the point in making a game/mod if people ain't playing it or using it? Saying it's like Arch Linux is not really helping the case. It's basically saying MT should only appeal to nerds and techies while the cool kids are using Windows/Linux Mint and having an active social life. If MT needs to grow to Multicraft levels, it has to appeal to the consumer market, not the nerd market (which it already has sewn up, and this is a bit like Stockholm Syndrome, we'll take the punishment, accept it and keep plugging.)

2. It will need to be maintained. It is something to factor in, but not necessarily avoid. Big companies don't shy away from a rename because their brand already has recognition (British Telecom -> BT, British Airways -> BA, Jif -> Cif). If a name is a liability, it's gotta be addressed even if it's not simple to do. It's about focussing on new users, not existing ones.

3. Multicraft is actually a good name. Isn't it telling that something took the code, renamed it and got more traction? A name change won't solve it's problems and you're right, user/player experience is essential, and I think this is the first step of accepting that it's about how it's used, rather than the initial OS approach of "it's free, take it and be thankful or put in a PR", the opposite of a user driven approach.

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Nicu » Post

Renaming seems like a good idea to me.

- I can easily see others (outsiders) thinking this is an attempt at replicating the Minecraft engine, likely "unfinished" (because there's "test" in the name);
- There's already confusion between the engine and the default game delivered with it, so renaming is an opportunity to get rid of that once and for all;
- If coupled with a major change, like the UI update, the sound rework and dual-wielding, it's a great opportunity to attract new users and contributors, thanks to the media attention.

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

ancientmariner wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 13:13
If MT needs to grow to Multicraft levels, it has to appeal to the consumer market, not the nerd market (which it already has sewn up, and this is a bit like Stockholm Syndrome, we'll take the punishment, accept it and keep plugging.)
I agree. To appeal to the consumer market Minetest needs a default game that doesn't suck. My first exposure to Minetest was downloading Minetest clones on Google Play. Most of them did not have mobs. I didn't like that (I don't think I knew how mods worked at the time). I eventually settled on MultiCraft II. I've also noticed that the Minetest app on Google Play includes dmobs. I guess they're trying to make the game a little better?
2. It will need to be maintained. It is something to factor in, but not necessarily avoid. Big companies don't shy away from a rename because their brand already has recognition (British Telecom -> BT, British Airways -> BA, Jif -> Cif). If a name is a liability, it's gotta be addressed even if it's not simple to do. It's about focussing on new users, not existing ones.
Yes. If there is a very compelling reason to change the name that out ways all the problems. In my experience when a company changes its name people keep calling it by the old name for years afterwards.
3. Multicraft is actually a good name. Isn't it telling that something took the code, renamed it and got more traction?
No because MultiCraft has a default game and it's a good game. Also the textures are nice. Also the Android app itself doesn't suck like the Minetest app. The name is a very small thing compared to the game itself.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

Nicu wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 15:41
- I can easily see others (outsiders) thinking this is an attempt at replicating the Minecraft engine, likely "unfinished" (because there's "test" in the name);
In a way yes, it is unfinished. It needs a good default game.
- There's already confusion between the engine and the default game delivered with it, so renaming is an opportunity to get rid of that once and for all;
Then just rename the Minetest Game. As I said in my first post, I am not opposed to that.
- If coupled with a major change, like the UI update, the sound rework and dual-wielding, it's a great opportunity to attract new users and contributors, thanks to the media attention.
I don't think technical matters or a new menu is a good way to attract users. I think the best way is good game play.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mantar » Post

Yeah Multicraft didn't get traction because of the name, there are dozens of similarly named totally-not-Minecraft games on Android. It got traction because it's a much better Android client for Minetest than the official one, and Minetest itself is just plain better than all those cheap Minecraft knockoffs Multicraft was competing with.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by LMD » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:32
I've also noticed that the Minetest app on Google Play includes dmobs. I guess they're trying to make the game a little better?
You got the wrong Minetest app. Rule of thumb: If it ain't bland, it ain't Minetest.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by v-rob » Post

LMD wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 20:38
You got the wrong Minetest app. Rule of thumb: If it ain't bland, it ain't Minetest.
Wait, so if we add advertisements, we might start getting more people downloading the game on mobile... hmmmmmmm
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Nope! » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:36
Nicu wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 15:41
- There's already confusion between the engine and the default game delivered with it, so renaming is an opportunity to get rid of that once and for all;
Then just rename the Minetest Game. As I said in my first post, I am not opposed to that.
Very good idea, since Minetest Game was not the main test anyway, it was the engine itself. At least, if I understand things right.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Blockhead » Post

v-rob wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 21:25
LMD wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 20:38
You got the wrong Minetest app. Rule of thumb: If it ain't bland, it ain't Minetest.
Wait, so if we add advertisements, we might start getting more people downloading the game on mobile... hmmmmmmm
Are you suggesting someone should pay Google for some ads for our game? Or that our app should have ads? Better yet, how about ads for Minetest to interrupt your gameplay while you play Minetest?
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Nicu » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:36
In a way yes, it is unfinished. It needs a good default game.
And what would that game be? And why that game, instead of another one? Why would the engine developers decide what's best for the default experience?

It's really up to the users what "good" is for them, which is why it makes sense to ship MTEngine with no games. What the engine needs is a good UI that invites (and helps, by featuring) discovery of the available options on ContentDB.

As long as the engine comes with a game, that makes (new) people believe one or more of the following:
- the default game is endorsed by the team making the engine
- the default game is officially supported (as in expecting bugfixes and features from the engine developers)
- the default game shows the full capability of the engine
- as long as that's the default, the other options are likely not better
Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:36
I don't think technical matters or a new menu is a good way to attract users. I think the best way is good game play.
A newly installed client would default to the Content tab/page, which should expand its features and filtering criteria so you can easily pick games (or content) by tags. I mean something like "Fully-featured", "Minimalistic", "Runner", "Exploration", "Adventure", "Survival", "Creative", "Combat", "Multiplayer", "Singleplayer", "Mobs", etc.

ContentDB already has a number of tags, and a few extra ones would help. It probably needs some other improvements, but it's already very good and it deserves a proper integration with the installed client.

The project can now decouple itself from any game in particular, more than just naming, and stand on its own with a clear identity, purpose, and responsibility - to create and maintain an engine with an ecosystem around it.

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

LMD wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 20:38
Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:32
I've also noticed that the Minetest app on Google Play includes dmobs. I guess they're trying to make the game a little better?
You got the wrong Minetest app. Rule of thumb: If it ain't bland, it ain't Minetest.
I still have the Minetest app on an old tablet from when I was doing some testing for MineClone 2 last year. It has ID net.minetest.minetest and version 5.5.1. It has dmobs, WorldEdit and some other Mobs Redo based mobs bundled inside MTG. I tried downloading the latest Minetest from Google Play. It did not include any extra mods. I also tried installing 5.5.1 from the GitHub releases. Also no extra mods. It seems improbable that there would be a different version of the app on Google Play than the version on GitHub releases.

It seems you are right. I have no idea where the Minetest app on my tablet came from. I would have thought I would've been smart enough to get the official Minetest. :-(
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by LMD » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 14:03
It seems you are right. I have no idea where the Minetest app on my tablet came from. I would have thought I would've been smart enough to get the official Minetest. :-(
Well perhaps you installed these mods through ContentDB?
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Wilderness » Post

Definitely a possibility.

Is it ok to have more than one Forums account?

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

LMD wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 21:45
Mr. Rar wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 14:03
It seems you are right. I have no idea where the Minetest app on my tablet came from. I would have thought I would've been smart enough to get the official Minetest. :-(
Well perhaps you installed these mods through ContentDB?
Then how did they get in the MTG mods folder? Certainly I didn't do that.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

Nicu wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 10:18
And what would that game be? And why that game, instead of another one? Why would the engine developers decide what's best for the default experience?
MeseCraft might be a good choice since it's basically MTG++.
As long as the engine comes with a game, that makes (new) people believe one or more of the following:
- the default game is endorsed by the team making the engine
- the default game is officially supported (as in expecting bugfixes and features from the engine developers)
- the default game shows the full capability of the engine
- as long as that's the default, the other options are likely not better
I think all those things could be true if Minetest had a good default game. There would be more focus on the one game and less duplication of effort.
The project can now decouple itself from any game in particular, more than just naming, and stand on its own with a clear identity, purpose, and responsibility - to create and maintain an engine with an ecosystem around it.
The only problem with that is it's not good for offline scenarios. It's nice to have Minetest working right out of the box.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by L-Dog » Post

v-rob wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 21:25
LMD wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 20:38
You got the wrong Minetest app. Rule of thumb: If it ain't bland, it ain't Minetest.
Wait, so if we add advertisements, we might start getting more people downloading the game on mobile... hmmmmmmm
Ads on Open-Source? ... is that not in breach of ''Making money from Free Software''? ... if its not in breach and if you add Ads to the Game will you let us delete the Ad code for Servers?

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by L-Dog » Post

And by default MineTest is a Game, it comes playable and you can 'do stuff' like build.... to add Mods to it just makes it more fun, it dont change it into a separate game... its still MineTest World Code but with a Mod on it.

to call it an 'Engine' now is only because all dev efforts have went into the CODE not the GAME... Unreal is an Engine, it dont come with a world, default stuff - its a Model maker and then you create all the coding/textures... unless your reclassifying MineTest for Legal reasons...

Maybe Define it as a F'ing game ... does it show up in 'games' search or 'game engine for development'?
its literally a game bro.... literally .... i guess MineCrat is just an engine to.

I understand your confusion but i wont tolerate it

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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by LMD » Post

L-Dog wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:59
Ads on Open-Source? ... is that not in breach of ''Making money from Free Software''?
No, quite the contrary: Open source requires you to allow others to monetize the software; non-commercial clauses make software nonfree.
L-Dog wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:59
if its not in breach and if you add Ads to the Game will you let us delete the Ad code for Servers?
Yes, that's how open source works: If you're unhappy with the direction a project is taking, you're always free to fork. Copyleft licenses enforce this freedom particularly well by requiring any modifications to be published under the same (or a compatible) license, making it impossible for free software to have proprietary bits added on top of it.

(Side note: I'm surprised nobody has put up an ad-free MultiCraft on the Play Store yet; MultiCraft seems to be abiding by the copyleft of the LGPL, the sources are available under a GPL license)
to call it an 'Engine' now is only because all dev efforts have went into the CODE not the GAME... Unreal is an Engine, it dont come with a world, default stuff - its a Model maker and then you create all the coding/textures... [...]

Maybe Define it as a F'ing game ... does it show up in 'games' search or 'game engine for development'?
its literally a game bro.... literally .... i guess MineCrat is just an engine to.

I understand your confusion but i wont tolerate it
Sorry, you are the one confused here, which proves the point that the current naming situation is confusing.

You need to distinguish between Minetest Game and the Minetest Engine (or, as I prefer to call it, the Minetest Platform).

Minetest Game is, as the name implies, a game for the engine: It uses the engine's Lua scripting interface to implement game content such as nodes, tools, entities etc. Minetest Game has now been in feature freeze for years, whereas the engine is having more features than ever, many of which Minetest Game doesn't even leverage.

Without a game, the "engine" contains no content; you can't even start it. With a minimal game such as void, there is still pretty much no content. Historically, the engine and the game have been closely intertwined, which is why there's still some dehardcoding to do. Yet viewing Minetest as a "modded" game is wrong.

Is Minetest a "typical" engine "just like other game engines"? No. We don't have to implement the client (including the mainmenu and the serverlist); we don't have to implement a network protocol; all we have to do is script the server. This is a great advantage since it removes the need to distribute your own clients (any recent Minetest client can connect to any recent Minetest server, no matter the game running on it). On the other hand it's of course very limiting; Minetest doesn't provide as low-level access as other engines do.

That's why I prefer to call it a platform (which also resolves the awkwardness with Irrlicht already calling itself an engine - if Irrlicht already is an engine, is Minetest an engine on an engine?).

Still, a platform is not to be confused with a game. Just take a look at the variety of games on ContentDB - platformers, jump'n'run, puzzle games, Minecraft clones etc. "Reducing" all of these vastly different experiences to "mods" (of which base game? recall that the Minetest engine isn't playable without a game) is insulting to the game developers who built them.

The lines between engine, platform, game and mod are blurry, especially given Minetest's history as a game, but it is consensus in this community that Minetest definitely leans more on the "platform"/"engine" than on the "game" side.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by v-rob » Post

L-Dog wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:59
v-rob wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 21:25
Wait, so if we add advertisements, we might start getting more people downloading the game on mobile... hmmmmmmm
Ads on Open-Source? ... is that not in breach of ''Making money from Free Software''? ... if its not in breach and if you add Ads to the Game will you let us delete the Ad code for Servers?
This was entirely a joke. Adding ads to the Minetest client on Android would clearly not improve downloads--it would almost certainly hurt what downloads we already have. Moreover, we wouldn't add ads just to increase download count.
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Mr. Rar » Post

LMD wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 14:29
(Side note: I'm surprised nobody has put up an ad-free MultiCraft on the Play Store yet; MultiCraft seems to be abiding by the copyleft of the LGPL, the sources are available under a GPL license)
I don't think so: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29156
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by hlqkj » Post

Mr. Rar wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 17:32
3. Multicraft is actually a good name. Isn't it telling that something took the code, renamed it and got more traction?
No because MultiCraft has a default game and it's a good game. Also the textures are nice. Also the Android app itself doesn't suck like the Minetest app. The name is a very small thing compared to the game itself.
I just wanted to add, that MultiCraft also has an iOS app, which seems to cover quite a little user base in the lower ages, not to mention the tablets market in which Apple wins over Android.

Also, having a main menu which looks like a game and not a BIOS screen helped in the past…

Edit: it may be true that having “craft” in its name helped some users in their “free Minecraft alternatives” search, however, that’s also how I found Minetest myself years ago, so the name alone can’t be considered *the* reason why Minetest has few users (if this is the real reason behind all this “let’s rename it!” bitching at all).
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Re: 3 reasons to *not* rename Minetest

by Blockhead » Post

As I have been told that replies to a duplicate thread should be given here, here is my response.

saiyeue wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:29
2. Renaming Minetest will lead to comfusion [sic] about its name. After renaming Minetest, references to the old name will still exist. This includes Minetest mods, the Minetest forums, blog posts, YouTube Videos, the Minetest API, Minetest DNS, etc. The old name will still need to be supported for the foreseeable future after renaming. Having two names will just cause confusion.
In terms of websites, those are not terribly difficult to update. Find & Replace will do the job quickly enough.

Mods will still be able to use minetest for the foreseeable future even if it were renamed. Anyway a more portable name has always existed, core. All the code in the builtin Lua scripts use the variable core and not minetest, so maybe consider using that.

Search engines tend to be pretty good at finding things that have been renamed in my experience - though I can't cite any examples off the top of my head right now. Either way I'm fairly sure if anyone looks up "Minetest" after the renaming, they will figure out pretty quickly that it only used to be called Minetest. Yes, it causes confusion for a while, but that will fade with time. The project used to be called minetest-c55 in its earliest days, and while just dropping the -c55 is more minor of a change than most of what's proposed, I still think the change will work - that is, if we can ever agree what to call it (or with what BDFL celeron55 says it will be, if he ever does that).
saiyeue wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:29
3. A good name doesn't make much of a difference. The important thing about a name is not the sound but what it references.
This line of argumentation is like Juliet: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Unfortunately, it'd be hard to sell roses if they were all called pringadoodles or ratafarts. In fact, I think people would probably rename them to something nicer. Juliet asks Romeo to give up the name Romeo (surname Montague) because she doesn't like that name - and he agrees. So I think a lot of Minetesters would agree we love Minetest, but we don't love the name
saiyeue wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:29
If Minetest is renamed, the new name will still refer to the exact same software. Some people think that the only thing that Minetest lacks to brake out into the main stream is a good name. I think a better idea to make Minetest main stream is to fix all the problems. I guess Minetest is already kind of main stream because MultiCraft has 50 million download on Google Play. As long as a name does not a have some sort of negative connotation or is hard to remember, it's OK. Gimp and VLC have arguably poor names. Hasn't prevented them from becoming popular.
Multicraft has a better name that capitalises on association with Minecraft. It also has a better control scheme and a more engaging built-in game. Unfortunately, just making Minetest a better game doesn't inherently mean it will get massive attention. Google Play runs on money, not merit. As to how we can address this, previous discussion is in the thread
Why is Multicraft more popular than Minetest?
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