My Fears...

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snakevenom
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by snakevenom » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:38

this is a interesting discussion however i believe that the decisions that pilzadam has made were positive ones for the game, it has added much more to do within the vanilla game and i would rather play pilzadam version than anyone else's.
 

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by jojoa1997 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:46

With the added survival a build games it has definitely gotten better
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by rubenwardy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:50

Bas080 wrote:Hey Jordach, Good discussion. My idea is that the user should be made more aware of what the content is that we modders are making and sharing. Ways of doing this is putting a game manager and/or mod manager in that allows user rating. That is the only way we will find out what mods and what games people(not modders) like. The results from these ratings should be implemented into the default game. This way the default will appeal to a large group of players. I think that should be the goal of the default game.

The changes are decided not entirely by developer but also by users. Which avoids finger pointing.

Furthermore a mod manager and/or games manager shows the strength of Minetest. It is to adapt to a players needs. Also the needs of players that deviate from the default game. And in the case that allot of them deviate from the default, the default should be adapted. Evolution.

For the nostalgic people there should always be the game mode as they knew it. Having a game_manager(multiple and downloadable games) allows for this.

Conclusion: More focus on user input (rating/downloads of mods and games ) so we know what the masses want and adapt default to the masses.


There is a mod manager in Minetest, but it can not download mods.

I am pinning my hopes on

3M mod manager as a downloader library

and

my Minetest extensions

It currently only has mod liking, but if you have any suggestions on how Mt Extensions should handle rating, write a reply in the above topic.
Last edited by rubenwardy on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by Dopium » Sun Mar 24, 2013 13:07

snakevenom wrote:this is a interesting discussion however i believe that the decisions that pilzadam has made were positive ones for the game, it has added much more to do within the vanilla game and i would rather play pilzadam version than anyone else's.



Adam is great at what he does however sometimes others builds have items removed, this is a bit of a problem with some the mods i run creating dummy images. Personally i think the best build is from source, edit it and compile yourself, saves installing a mod that may depend on a default item that has been removed. I cant download others builds as i always have dummy objects and need to re-edit the code.
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by Inocudom » Mon Mar 25, 2013 04:22

I can say with certainty that Minetest uses a considerably higher amount of RAM than it used too. If RAM usage is not kept in check, this can become a big problem in the future.
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by rarkenin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:30

Inocudom wrote:I can say with certainty that Minetest uses a considerably higher amount of RAM than it used too. If RAM usage is not kept in check, this can become a big problem in the future.


The client eats RAM pretty well also. What about compressing data of faraway chunks in memory using GZip and some more flexible data types in C++ to held memory like that?
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by kaeza » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:43

rarkenin wrote:
Inocudom wrote:I can say with certainty that Minetest uses a considerably higher amount of RAM than it used too. If RAM usage is not kept in check, this can become a big problem in the future.


The client eats RAM pretty well also. What about compressing data of faraway chunks in memory using GZip and some more flexible data types in C++ to held memory like that?

Using compression like that is impossible. It would mean that the client must uncompress that data every time it needs to display it (every game step).
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by rarkenin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:17

kaeza wrote:
rarkenin wrote:
Inocudom wrote:I can say with certainty that Minetest uses a considerably higher amount of RAM than it used too. If RAM usage is not kept in check, this can become a big problem in the future.


The client eats RAM pretty well also. What about compressing data of faraway chunks in memory using GZip and some more flexible data types in C++ to held memory like that?

Using compression like that is impossible. It would mean that the client must uncompress that data every time it needs to display it (every game step).


No, it can simply uncompress everything within a certain radius, such as 200 or so. Then again, I might be wrong.
Last edited by rarkenin on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:17, edited 1 time in total.
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by Inocudom » Mon Mar 25, 2013 15:39

rarkenin wrote:
kaeza wrote:
rarkenin wrote:
The client eats RAM pretty well also. What about compressing data of faraway chunks in memory using GZip and some more flexible data types in C++ to held memory like that?

Using compression like that is impossible. It would mean that the client must uncompress that data every time it needs to display it (every game step).


No, it can simply uncompress everything within a certain radius, such as 200 or so. Then again, I might be wrong.


These posts confirm that RAM usage did indeed increase considerably. This could prove to be harmful for older computers, since they will likely be overworked. When a computer is overworked (when it makes a lot of noise,) its lifespan is being shortened. A computer is to be used, but not abused.

I feel that Minetest doesn't make as much use of graphics cards as it could (though it does better than Minecraft in that area.)
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by jordan4ibanez » Mon Mar 25, 2013 17:58

Inocudom wrote:
rarkenin wrote:
kaeza wrote:Using compression like that is impossible. It would mean that the client must uncompress that data every time it needs to display it (every game step).


No, it can simply uncompress everything within a certain radius, such as 200 or so. Then again, I might be wrong.


These posts confirm that RAM usage did indeed increase considerably. This could prove to be harmful for older computers, since they will likely be overworked. When a computer is overworked (when it makes a lot of noise,) its lifespan is being shortened. A computer is to be used, but not abused.

I feel that Minetest doesn't make as much use of graphics cards as it could (though it does better than Minecraft in that area.)

Then help optimize it? You guys are talking about the problems and reasonings but not the source. Examine the issues with the debug menu. For all we know you guys could have cpus which the font causese the cpu to shoot up just rendering it.
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by Traxie21 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 18:01

Not everyone can contribute. I wish I could, but my attampts of compiling have totally failed.
 

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by prestidigitator » Mon Mar 25, 2013 20:52

Compressing chunks probably isn't realistic, but SIMPLIFYING them would be. Some kind of oct-tree based 3D "mipmapping" for LOD distance could cut down greatly on both memory and CPU requirements. "Chunk impostors". Heh.
 

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by Inocudom » Mon Mar 25, 2013 22:14

What is the debug menu? How is it opened? If people know about it better, they might be able to assist with the RAM and CPU issues. Many of the new features and enhancements that were recently added are wonderful, but their RAM and CPU needs must be optimized.
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by YoYoBuddy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 16:01

Hey traxie, did you notice I called you a "bad-ass"?
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by Psychotic » Wed Mar 27, 2013 21:06

So if i make a post about this on the minecraft forum, would you guys be willing to back me up with examples on how minetest is different than minecraft?
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by onpon4 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 22:10

Psychotic wrote:So if i make a post about this on the minecraft forum, would you guys be willing to back me up with examples on how minetest is different than minecraft?


Well, it's of course different. I've never played Minecraft and never will, but other than the base game being more minimal, I'm aware of these differences:
  • All Minetest mods are server-side, while Minecraft has both server-side and client-side mods (my brother tells me that some client-side mods are considered "cheating" in Minecraft).
  • Minetest is written in C++ instead of Java.
  • Minetest is free software (where "free" refers to freedom, not price, though it is gratis as well).
  • Minetest has MESE, MESE crystals, and MESE crystal fragments, which are used for MESE pickaxes and is also used by mods for other things.
  • The fist looks like a potato in Minetest.
 

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by Inocudom » Thu Mar 28, 2013 00:39

Never forget the much greater height allowances (though I don't think its a good idea to talk about this game in the Minecraft forums; you would be safer doing that in the PureZC forums.)

In the topic for PilzAdam's builds, it was revealed that diamond and gold were added to Minetest. I was thinking that diamond would make a good companion substance to mese and could even resemble it. However, diamond could retain its coloration scheme and strength. It could also be given a different name (I thought up the names CYAN and DMND) and be able to fuse with mese to create an even stronger substance.
Last edited by Inocudom on Thu Mar 28, 2013 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
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by Sokomine » Thu Mar 28, 2013 00:41

MT runs faster and has a higher viewing range than MC at least on older computers. MC, on the other hand, does have more survival elements and is currently better suited for players who want to fight against mobs.
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by Inocudom » Fri Mar 29, 2013 16:46

Inocudom wrote:What is the debug menu? How is it opened? If people know about it better, they might be able to assist with the RAM and CPU issues. Many of the new features and enhancements that were recently added are wonderful, but their RAM and CPU needs must be optimized.


It may be a futile effort, but there must be a way to optimize the CPU and RAM needs of the current git version of Minetest.
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by Michael Eh? » Sat Mar 30, 2013 02:13

I think what is missing is vision on what 'minetest' direction should go. Mods allow to build a game to a server admin liking.

However, if we aren't following minecraft path then what direction should we go?

That is the problem. Given the fact that Minecraft developed over time with things being added. back when I played there was no mobs in minecraft. Since then PvP minecraft has dangerously spilled over to creative servers, should we ditch the 'sandbox' part of Minetest?

Absorbing proven mods into the core game like 'wool' which proved it's worth. It's neutral BUT c55 ideal was to make base engine well that depended on mods to make each server 'personal touch'.

Without a core program, there can really be nothing. Without proper frame, no mod will be able fix it.

While the new MESE is cute it doesn't mean that MESE blocks are gone. It's has open up more mods like UFO.

True the current direction of minetest with cruel PKers like LandMine who seems to be determine to undermine the game Minetest on multiple servers. A program can't correct behavior. Those who run servers can. Maybe we can simply write LandMine out of the game by having 'log actions on conditions' like one I proposed PK notifier where attacks are announced and logged. Maybe having trigger like everytime someone uses lava or lava in bucket. This could be written as a mod then eventually included in core mods.

Still we need a direction to go from here. If not minecraft then what? Finding that direction might be hardest thing in minetest to find.

my 2 cents....
 

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by Inocudom » Sat Mar 30, 2013 03:05

Minetest should still be a sandbox game. It can have similarities to Minecraft, but it should avoid being a clone of it.
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by Neuromancer » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:37

Jordach wrote:Minetest in recent months has started to lose things which made it stick out from the others. Since c55 left the project, PilzAdam has been making various minetest_game decisions which have either:

Pissed several people off

Or

Removed ancient artefacts such as mese blocks. Which leads to option 1.

If we keep going this way, Minetest is going to look like a huge steaming pile of shit Minecraft is.

@PilzAdam quit being blind!

-Jordach


There's a problem with criticism and negativity, it tends to demoralize the very people who are keeping the game alive. If there is too much criticism, they will eventually just give up and stop contributing all of their hard work. What Minetest needs to keep it alive is less criticism and negativity, and if someone has a better idea, then write some C++ code and make the game better. If someone wants the engine to be more efficient (or whatever enhancement), then by all means write the code to make it so and contribute it to the team. Otherwise silence is the best bet. That doesn't mean positive ideas shouldn't be shared.

Working together rather than creating a fork is also a better approach. I think there has been some decent progress over the last few months.
 

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by Neuromancer » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:41

Michael Eh? wrote:' like one I proposed PK notifier where attacks are announced and logged. Maybe having trigger like everytime someone uses lava or lava in bucket. This could be written as a mod then eventually included in core mods.
.

These are really good ideas that would move the game forward and should be easy to implement.
Last edited by Neuromancer on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:43, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by DaN » Sun Apr 07, 2013 03:45

My, this forum really has grown since 0.2. :)
I'm Dan. I've been following (and playing) Minetest since 0.2 (hinted above). Just joined the forums outta urge.
Really like ideas in this discussion. Esp. the separate gamemodes and focus on optimizing the engine.
I'll be keeping eye on this thread (really interested in the way this will unravel). Might think of some ideas.

-D.H.
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