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My Fears...

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:02
by Jordach
Minetest in recent months has started to lose things which made it stick out from the others. Since c55 left the project, PilzAdam has been making various minetest_game decisions which have either:

Pissed several people off

Or

Removed ancient artefacts such as mese blocks. Which leads to option 1.

If we keep going this way, Minetest is going to look like a huge steaming pile of shit Minecraft is.

@PilzAdam quit being blind!

Someone on the MC forums said Minetest is a clone of Minecraft, and at the rate it is ocurrently going at, I am pretty sure that it will be.

Again, PilzAdam only copies stuff from the MC on the grounds of what he believes if a challenge and fun. Although, to the contrary, he did say that non renewable lava lakes could be near the surface and renewables near -30000. This can lead into different styles of gameplay, not to mention it makes it harder to grief the shizzle out of serves, thanks LM.

My point is, a user known as wokste, has a signiture that states: "We must not clone the same mistakes that Notch made." IMO, I am actually starting to believe we are ignoring his warning.

Yes, change is nice, but when it has become a staple in a game, you don't fuck with it, you leave it and develop around it. Instead of bulldozing it and paving a shiny new road.

@VannesaE, yes, this is aimed at you.

Many Minetest members who joined in the 0.2 / 0.3 days remember the silly shit Minetest had. Now when they may return, they will more than likely be disgusted on what PilzAdam has done to Minetest's release gamemode.

I am truly sorry, but if this continues, I WILL MAKE A ALTERNATE GAMEMODE. I have also put up with this long enough now.

-Jordach

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:11
by rarkenin
Jordach wrote:SNIP


Total agreement. I think a full minetest_game fork would be in line. Keep the engine the same or make a fork that grabs all commits from the official engine, but also accepts more useful improvements, and less unwanted change.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:18
by Jordach
There are more important things in this game then damn 'polish.'

It's the stupidly tiny things people will never notice, like CLONING MC OBSIDIAN, OH, WHO WANTS THIS. OH YEAH, PILZADAM.

1) Get a REALLY GOOD SPIFFING MODDING API BEFORE WE EVEN ATTEMPT TO MAKE SOME FORM OF HEADWAY INTO A GAME MODE.

2) Quit fart assing around with useless shiny pieces of shit and actually work on the engine! (Oh, did I say that out loud?)

3) Optimise this fucking game will you? It is slow enough for some people, oh and while we are here, ADD LuaJIT.

4) At this rate I might as well take control of quality control. Fyi, at this rate I am turning into Linus Torvalds.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:31
by PilzAdam
The problem with developing minetest_game is that its not possible to create a game that everyone is happy with. So we have two options:
  1. We do it like we have done it the last few months (since I am here) and dont add any features. We only do some minor tweaks and bugfixes.
    The community will start to make mods that make a real game out of the boring minetest_game. The vanilla game will be unplayable because there are only a very few features and new users will mostly be disappointed and leave.
  2. We actually start developing and add in features that make the gameplay more fun (like I have tried it the last few days). There will be some features that will not make everyone happy, but they are important for a challenging survival game.
    The problem is that the users have billions of oppinions and suggestion, and we wont be able to add them all in. We have to find a general direction in wich minetest_game should go and add in all the features that suit this direction and leave the rest out.
    The result will be a pretty nice vanilla game that is playable without mods. But if some users dont like the style of it, they can simply go to the forum and install mods or other games that have different goals.

minetest_game simply cant be a game that suits everyones needs, so in my oppinion we just pick a direction (challenging survival gameplay with enough freedom to build) and add features that actually support this goal.
The other way would be the option number one from above, and in the long term this would be Minetests death.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:37
by tinoesroho
Or, do the smart thing and seperate Minetest-engine and minetest-game more. Updates to the engine should only be done that enable a wider range of possibilities (like LUA-settable player HP, movement speed, jump) and...

We can break the minetest_game project into several projects: mesetint (classic minetest), minetest (barebones), minefest (more of a full-fledged game project).

Minetest is about freedom. Freedom to innovate. Freedom from being pissed off by executive decisions. We can avoid pissing players off by producing more variety, and by providing a versatile engine.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:43
by rarkenin
tinoesroho wrote:Or, do the smart thing and seperate Minetest-engine and minetest-game more. Updates to the engine should only be done that enable a wider range of possibilities (like LUA-settable player HP, movement speed, jump) and...

We can break the minetest_game project into several projects: mesetint (classic minetest), minetest (barebones), minefest (more of a full-fledged game project).

Minetest is about freedom. Freedom to innovate. Freedom from being pissed off by executive decisions. We can avoid pissing players off by producing more variety, and by providing a versatile engine.


This is a good idea, and the names are also awesome.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:46
by PilzAdam
In addition to what I said above:
The community should start developing more game(mode)s. Single mods have to run with a game (wich is minetest_game by default) wich isnt good in all cases if minetest_game turns into a survival direction.
If more games would exist, the users could decide wich one is best for them and there wouldnt be that much discussions about what the default game should be.
For example, the technic mod is complex enough to be a whole game.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 23:56
by Inocudom
The current mese ore could be made to look like the old mese and the new mese could be deeper underground. Different rock layers would be an improvement and jungles could have their own dirt and rock types just like deserts do. Deserts could be given new plants that are appropriate. I enjoy new features for Minetest, but I don't want it to be a Minecraft clone.

I do feel that player models would be cuter and more original if they took some inspiration from the game RPG Maker 2 for the PlayStation 2 (the dungeons and buildings in that game were made in a manner not too different from how things are built in Minetest.) Below is a video I found on YouTube of what RPG Maker 2 looks like. Notice how the characters look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7fXX-ly1UFA
I find the player models to be cute, and Minetest could have similar ones that are easy to select and customize.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 02:45
by jojoa1997
Inocudom wrote:The current mese ore could be made to look like the old mese and the new mese could be deeper underground. Different rock layers would be an improvement and jungles could have their own dirt and rock types just like deserts do. Deserts could be given new plants that are appropriate. I enjoy new features for Minetest, but I don't want it to be a Minecraft clone.

I do feel that player models would be cuter and more original if they took some inspiration from the game RPG Maker 2 for the PlayStation 2 (the dungeons and buildings in that game were made in a manner not too different from how things are built in Minetest.) Below is a video I found on YouTube of what RPG Maker 2 looks like. Notice how the characters look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7fXX-ly1UFA
I find the player models to be cute, and Minetest could have similar ones that are easy to select and customize.
I don't really like those models cause that gets rid of the blocky feel. Also if anything keep the model the same since you have A huge library of skins from all the ones people have made for minecraft. I do think we could do something like capes or similar that could be decided client side(and player tezturea too)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 04:05
by Mito551
PilzAdam wrote:In addition to what I said above:
The community should start developing more game(mode)s. Single mods have to run with a game (wich is minetest_game by default) wich isnt good in all cases if minetest_game turns into a survival direction.

which*

@Jordach, tell me, do you like dwarves?

PilzAdam wrote:There will be some features that will not make everyone happy, but they are important for a challenging survival game.
The result will be a pretty nice vanilla game that is playable without mods. But if some users dont like the style of it, they can simply go to the forum and install mods or other games that have different goals.

minetest_game simply cant be a game that suits everyones needs, so in my oppinion we just pick a direction (challenging survival gameplay with enough freedom to build) and add features that actually support this goal.

two words: dwarves game.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 07:54
by BorisGrishenko
I don't mind the change for the renewable lava, lava isn't that much of an asset to me. But I concur with Jordach that if Minetest will have updates similar to Minecraft, then people will not be used to these changes and Minetest will not be that much as unique. And people from the Minecraft Forums will get even more pissed off because the changes of Minetest are similar to them. They'll just find a way of bringing Minetest down.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 07:54
by Jordach
Mito551 wrote:@Jordach, tell me, do you like dwarves?

two words: dwarves game.
I like Dwarves, except for the greater need for cpu.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:52
by pandaro
It is difficult to always make the right decisions, but decisions right or wrong should be taken not to stop development.

I thank PilzAdam and all the people involved in the development of minetest from the engine side.

I believe that the most active part of this community MUST be involved in decisions that affect the gameplay.

I think up to version 0.7 to speak of "default gameplay" is premature, on the contrary, must continue to work on the engine to add features and optimize performance.

I think anyone who plays this game at the moment to do it because it is animated by a strong passion, so all the current players can be called "beta tester".

In conclusion: the decision maker at the time should involve users more passionate, reread all the topic
. here you will find inspiration to know what people want.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:58
by jojoa1997
pandaro wrote:It is difficult to always make the right decisions, but decisions right or wrong should be taken not to stop development.

I thank PilzAdam and all the people involved in the development of minetest from the engine side.

I believe that the most active part of this community MUST be involved in decisions that affect the gameplay.

I think up to version 0.7 to speak of "default gameplay" is premature, on the contrary, must continue to work on the engine to add features and optimize performance.

I think anyone who plays this game at the moment to do it because it is animated by a strong passion, so all the current players can be called "beta tester".

In conclusion: the decision maker at the time should involve users more passionate, reread all the topic
. here you will find inspiration to know what people want.
I agree I have been pushing for a better game ever since I saw how under developed 0gb.us server was cause it was DEFAULT game and it was horrible. I say either we change the fighting by swords or allowing the playing field to be changed like armor. Also I could make anything new in default because we have such a limited number of blocks,

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:35
by Tedypig
I agree I have been pushing for a better game ever since I saw how under developed 0gb.us server was cause it was DEFAULT game and it was horrible.


AAAAANNNNDDDDD From your signature....

Servers I like: 0gb.us:30000*vanessae.mine.bz:30000*menche.servegame.com:30000

I for one think his server is perfect.

And now MY input.
The game is fucking awesome. If you want more options just fucking look around the forums for mods. Don't want renewable lava....MOD IT OUT! Want more blocks........"gloop blocks,moreblocks,noncubic,more ores. Just to name a few" There you go. Also, new nodes are fucking easy to create and the software to do so is free. I use luaedit and gimp. I say fix the engine to make this run better, and leave the game "development" to the users, that way EVERYONE CAN HAVE WHAT THEY WANT! The community here is amazing and will help you with anything you want to know (provided THEY know how to do it). I don't mind the new Mese, the lava pisses me off, the game in general is awesome. Please don't turn Minetest into Minecraft. If I want Minecraft I would play Minecraft.

That's my 2 pennies. Don't like it? I don't care, I'm not here to impress you.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:56
by Traxie21
^What I would say, except with more language and caps then I would add. :P

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:32
by jojoa1997
Tedypig wrote:
I agree I have been pushing for a better game ever since I saw how under developed 0gb.us server was cause it was DEFAULT game and it was horrible.


AAAAANNNNDDDDD From your signature....

Servers I like: 0gb.us:30000*vanessae.mine.bz:30000*menche.servegame.com:30000

I for one think his server is perfect.

And now MY input.
The game is fucking awesome. If you want more options just fucking look around the forums for mods. Don't want renewable lava....MOD IT OUT! Want more blocks........"gloop blocks,moreblocks,noncubic,more ores. Just to name a few" There you go. Also, new nodes are fucking easy to create and the software to do so is free. I use luaedit and gimp. I say fix the engine to make this run better, and leave the game "development" to the users, that way EVERYONE CAN HAVE WHAT THEY WANT! The community here is amazing and will help you with anything you want to know (provided THEY know how to do it). I don't mind the new Mese, the lava pisses me off, the game in general is awesome. Please don't turn Minetest into Minecraft. If I want Minecraft I would play Minecraft.

That's my 2 pennies. Don't like it? I don't care, I'm not here to impress you.
I love his server but I mean the game is under developed. That is the only server I go on anymore for survival. Vanesae's server is for creative

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:41
by Calinou
tinoesroho wrote:Or, do the smart thing and seperate Minetest-engine and minetest-game more. Updates to the engine should only be done that enable a wider range of possibilities (like LUA-settable player HP, movement speed, jump) and...

We can break the minetest_game project into several projects: mesetint (classic minetest), minetest (barebones), minefest (more of a full-fledged game project).

Minetest is about freedom. Freedom to innovate. Freedom from being pissed off by executive decisions. We can avoid pissing players off by producing more variety, and by providing a versatile engine.


+1, we could have 4 games like this:
- classic (0.3.3-like)
- minetest (just like it is right now)
- minefest (lots of mods shipped by default)
- minecraft_like (tries to be as close as Minecraft as possible).

It's the best of all worlds we could do.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 13:08
by jojoa1997
Calinou wrote:
tinoesroho wrote:Or, do the smart thing and seperate Minetest-engine and minetest-game more. Updates to the engine should only be done that enable a wider range of possibilities (like LUA-settable player HP, movement speed, jump) and...

We can break the minetest_game project into several projects: mesetint (classic minetest), minetest (barebones), minefest (more of a full-fledged game project).

Minetest is about freedom. Freedom to innovate. Freedom from being pissed off by executive decisions. We can avoid pissing players off by producing more variety, and by providing a versatile engine.


+1, we could have 4 games like this:
- classic (0.3.3-like)
- minetest (just like it is right now)
- minefest (lots of mods shipped by default)
- minecraft_like (tries to be as close as Minecraft as possible).

It's the best of all worlds we could do.
I say minetest stay the development one and we have classic as it is now and minimal as of 0.4.4

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 15:47
by Casimir
pandaro wrote:reread all the topic
. here you will find inspiration to know what people want.

Even better: Look at the mods that are out there.

Calinou wrote:- minecraft_like (tries to be as close as Minecraft as possible).

That is important. There are a lot of people who just want a minecraft copy, they don't want all the minetest-stuff. And those who want an original minetest don't want the minecraft-stuff in there. So the best would be to develop a pure Minecraft copy and to clearly separate those.
Thats one basic technique to solve problems: If you have a conflict in interests, provide an alternative. If people always walks over your lawn, don't build a fence, show them another, better way to use.

PilzAdam wrote:The problem with developing minetest_game is that its not possible to create a game that everyone is happy with.

Nothing is impossible. Therefor I hate compromises. A compromise always is when some people agree that there is no solution and therefor pic a solution no one is happy with. Always search for a consensus. It may take long, and you need to discus a lot. But my experience is that there always is a solution everyone is happy with.
If you have a unsolvable problem take a step back. You might can't move the huge container, but you can move the ship it is standing on (worst analogies always by casimir).
Imagine you build a House and want to sell it. You can buy all the inventory, all decorations and everything else, put some strawberry-ice-cream into the refrigerator. But someone might like chocolate more. Obviously you can't make everyone happy. Take a step back and the problem is solved. Just let the people bring their own ice cream (easy isn't it? ;) ).

I understand your intention about improve minetest_game to make it an "actual" game, but I don't understand the rush you are in. We have no deadline, and you don't have to do everything by your own.

Again a house analogy: Do you know Occam's razor? You cut everything away that is unnecessary. If you design a house and do that you might end up with a very minimalistic house, and it might feel as it has no personality. So you might want to add something that makes it special, give it a certain recognizable look. I think that is the feeling you have with minetest. It is to minimal and you want to add something to fix that feeling. The problem here is that you can not overcome that feeling if you add things from minecraft, because that doesn't gives minetest an own personalty. Also, those are small features that don't change the over-all look of the game. It's like adding some decoration or a different colour to your house just to look different from the others, instead of having a completely different structure of the building, special to your needs.
So we (together as a community) should develop and add things that are special to minetest. And not small things like a new block with a new texture (a lot of mods just do that - more textures (not saying it's a bad thing)), but basic things that change the feeling of the game.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 15:55
by PilzAdam
Casimir wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:The problem with developing minetest_game is that its not possible to create a game that everyone is happy with.

Nothing is impossible. Therefor I hate compromises. A compromise always is when some people agree that there is no solution and therefor pic a solution no one is happy with. Always search for a consensus. It may take long, and you need to discus a lot. But my experience is that there always is a solution everyone is happy with.
If you have a unsolvable problem take a step back. You might can't move the huge container, but you can move the ship it is standing on (worst analogies always by casimir).

You are wrong in this point. It is impossible to make a game that everyone likes.
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-21#i_2944560
Casimir wrote:I understand your intention about improve minetest_game to make it an "actual" game, but I don't understand the rush you are in. We have no deadline, and you don't have to do everything by your own.

I dont do everything on my own. There is a lot of discussion in the IRC, but the end user doesnt notice it.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 16:05
by nomohakon
Not game (lua), but engine (c++) should be in your focus, if you want to make minetest better. Anyone can do lua.

Do things when they feel right.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 16:48
by Casimir
PilzAdam wrote:You are wrong in this point. It is impossible to make a game that everyone likes.

You could at least try it. This is just an excuse, and quoting someone who says the same doesn't make it true.

PilzAdam wrote:I dont do everything on my own. There is a lot of discussion in the IRC, but the end user doesnt notice it.

That is not what I said. I talked about giving away. Responsibility for example. You seem to be very defensive to critic. Thats because you identify your self with the changes been made. You at least approved them, therefore you feel responsible. If you just let it go a little bit, let others do it, then you are no more the one person who is to blame.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 16:57
by rubenwardy
Calinou wrote:
tinoesroho wrote:Or, do the smart thing and seperate Minetest-engine and minetest-game more. Updates to the engine should only be done that enable a wider range of possibilities (like LUA-settable player HP, movement speed, jump) and...

We can break the minetest_game project into several projects: mesetint (classic minetest), minetest (barebones), minefest (more of a full-fledged game project).

Minetest is about freedom. Freedom to innovate. Freedom from being pissed off by executive decisions. We can avoid pissing players off by producing more variety, and by providing a versatile engine.


+1, we could have 4 games like this:
- classic (0.3.3-like)
- minetest (just like it is right now)
- minefest (lots of mods shipped by default)
- minecraft_like (tries to be as close as Minecraft as possible).

It's the best of all worlds we could do.


Although you would not be allowed to ship minecraft_like with official minetest, as it is a trade make :P

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 17:01
by rubenwardy
PilzAdam wrote:... It is impossible to make a game that everyone likes.
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-21#i_2944560
I dont do everything on my own. There is a lot of discussion in the IRC, but the end user doesnt notice it.


I agree with celeron55