[Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

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[Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:30

I'd like to know if a decoration's noise params can be tweaked to somehow generate long, thin patterns. I'd like for it to be somewhat consistently producing 1 node-wide lines, but I don't care if it would become 2 node wide at times nor if it at times collapsed into 0 node wide. Is it possible?
Last edited by texmex on Tue Sep 17, 2019 06:50, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 00:46

Will think on this, how big a spacing between the lines?
Are the lines straight or curved?
 

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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:12

Pretty wide as I'd like for a line to not be seen from standing by another one. 500 nodes or so. I'd like them to be curved and squiggly like a walked path (I assumed perlin noise always generates curved output). Something like this perhaps, but avoiding the looped lines:

Image

I'd would be desireble if crossing lines didn't "swell" but somewhat kept their normal thickness. Multiple noise runs are okay for achieving this.
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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Tue Sep 17, 2019 01:01

If the spacing between lines is large, such as 500 nodes, then it will be impossible to keep the lines width to 1-2 nodes, it will inevitably swell wider sometimes.
There will always be some loops.
Sorry to be slow on this, i hope to report back with a suggestion.
Last edited by paramat on Tue Sep 17, 2019 02:12, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Tue Sep 17, 2019 02:00

Interesting challenge, this is the best i can come up with, better than i thought possible. The lines are usually roughly 1-2 nodes wide.

Image

Try this code as a mod, depending on 'default' and 'flowers'.
Use in mgflat with caves and dungeons disabled.

Code: Select all
minetest.clear_registered_biomes()
minetest.clear_registered_ores()
minetest.clear_registered_decorations()

minetest.register_biome({
   name = "",
   --node_dust = "",
   node_top = "default:sand",
   depth_top = 1,
   node_filler = "default:sand",
   depth_filler = 3,
   --node_stone = "",
   --node_water_top = "",
   --depth_water_top = ,
   --node_water = "",
   --node_river_water = "",
   --node_riverbed = "",
   --depth_riverbed = ,
   --node_cave_liquid = "",
   --node_dungeon = "",
   --node_dungeon_alt = "",
   --node_dungeon_stair = "",
   --vertical_blend = ,
   y_max = 31000,
   y_min = -31000,
   heat_point = 50,
   humidity_point = 50,
})

minetest.register_decoration({
   deco_type = "simple",
   place_on = {"default:sand"},
   sidelen = 1,
   noise_params = {
      offset = 100.0,
      scale = -30000.0,
      spread = {x = 256, y = 256, z = 256},
      seed = 513337,
      octaves = 1,
      persist = 0.5,
      flags = "defaults, absvalue"
   },
   y_max = 31000,
   y_min = -31000,
   decoration = "default:obsidian",
})


Note that because there is 1 octave, changing 'persistence' has no effect.
For wider lines, but also fewer less gaps in the lines change 'scale' towards -20000.0.
For lines further apart, increase the scale of the entire pattern by increasing all components of 'spread'. This will make the lines wider so you will then need to tune 'scale'.
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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Tue Sep 17, 2019 02:10

2000x2000 map:

Image
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Re: Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Tue Sep 17, 2019 06:49

This is exactly what I was looking for. This is excellent. Thank you so much paramat!
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Tue Sep 17, 2019 23:40

Hmm, somehow place_offset_y doesn't work for this deco… Bug?

Forgot force_placement flag. All good! xD
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Fri Sep 20, 2019 20:06

Good to know. Feel free to ask if you need help with tuning the parameters.
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Sat Sep 21, 2019 16:37

After trying it out I think I want a bit squigglier lines since they often run in straight ~90° for quite long stretches. How can I achieve this?
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by ShadMOrdre » Tue Sep 24, 2019 06:39

Paramat,

I second that request. I put your decoration into lib_materials, and got myself a river and road network. But they'd look a lot better if the lines had more noise in them. For rivers, I'm using multiple deco defs, setting each deco to use differing altitudes and schematics. This allows me to make rivers wide near sea level, while narrowing the rivers at higher elevations. Same for the road decorations.

Lacunarity over 2.11 or under 1.89 seemed to break the lines. I thought lacunarity would only affect it if it used more than 1 octave, but that is not the case. Adding a lacunarity setting to the noise params, and changing beyond the range of the above values clearly "broke" the lines, of simply broke the decoration definition, rendering the decoration unplaceable.

Anyway, thanks a ton for this single decoration definition. Road and rivers, and so simple.

Shad

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Tue Sep 24, 2019 09:18

Excellent use of the noise, Shad! This is my use case as well.

My worry is that using it extensively will severely slow down map generation (as opposed to, say, a VoxelManip approach).
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by texmex » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:15

Btw Shad, please tell me when/if you find a solution to place schematics BY the road, not ON them. Having the same problem.
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Fri Sep 27, 2019 22:47

> I think I want a bit squigglier lines since they often run in straight ~90° for quite long stretches. How can I achieve this?

There is only one octave by necessity (noise flag 'absvalue' only works for this usage with 1 octave), so additional octaves cannot be added to generate finer detail in the pattern. Also, 'lacunarity' and 'persistence' are non-functional with 1 octave. This appearence is inherent for 'eased' noise with 1 octave.

The only possible change in noise character is:
flags = "noeased, absvalue"
That will remove some of the straightness but will cause some sharp angles.

> My worry is that using it extensively will severely slow down map generation

It is fairly lightweight, however, because it relies on 'sidelen = 1' it has a more intensive use of noise compared to typical decorations. So don't use it for large amounts of decorations.
One advantage is that it is not running in Lua so will not cause server lag, use of Voxelmanip will.
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by ShadMOrdre » Fri Oct 04, 2019 18:29

paramat,

Is it at all possible, to say, starting at pos x,y,z, using this, or a similar noise, to then draw a line to pos x,y,z?

If I recall, in your pathsv6/v7 or roadsv6/v7 mods, you spoke with Sokomine, regarding drawing roads from mg_village to mg_village. While mg_villages might have been difficult to determine village edge, for the purpose of ending the road at the end of the mg_village main street, I think I can provide a village mod where this is not an issue.

I'm using Rochambeau's settlements mod to create something akin to mg_villages, minus all the placement/town design complexity, and not requiring a flat circle. These "towns", and the buildings within, are placed at the appropriate y height. I can provide the pos of the center of the village, and give or take 50m, would be happy with a road/path from village to village, that doesn't go in a straight line across the map.

I don't know that this particular decoration noise can be done, but I seem to recall you "had" a solution to address Sokomines suggestion, just that Sokomine wasn't necessarily able to provide the end pos of the main street in those villages.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or outright solutions? As always, thankful for your help, and all the other work you do.

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by paramat » Sun Oct 06, 2019 22:10

> Is it at all possible, to say, starting at pos x,y,z, using this, or a similar noise, to then draw a line to pos x,y,z?

No, because noise is random so decoration placement is random =)

With villages, if noise-determined paths intersected a village this was only by coincidence. So i didn't have a solution for specifying points a noise-generated path passes through.
 

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Re: [Solved] Noise params for approx. 1 node thin lines

by Sokomine » Wed Oct 09, 2019 15:41

ShadMOrdre wrote:If I recall, in your pathsv6/v7 or roadsv6/v7 mods, you spoke with Sokomine, regarding drawing roads from mg_village to mg_village. While mg_villages might have been difficult to determine village edge, for the purpose of ending the road at the end of the mg_village main street, I think I can provide a village mod where this is not an issue.

Determining village edges is not such a big problem. The villages use that for detecting weather players are allowed to build there or not. Even knowing where a village might appear is to some degree possible. It's all noise-based. But please don't ask me for the details about using noise for that - that has been programmed by nore.

ShadMOrdre wrote:I'm using Rochambeau's settlements mod to create something akin to mg_villages, minus all the placement/town design complexity, and not requiring a flat circle. These "towns", and the buildings within, are placed at the appropriate y height. I can provide the pos of the center of the village, and give or take 50m, would be happy with a road/path from village to village, that doesn't go in a straight line across the map.

Ah, thanks for reminding me of Rochambeaus settlements mod. Since the time I'd first spotted your posting and now, I've experimented a bit with. That is, taken some core ideas, combined them with information from the heightmap and some way to limit ugly platforms/too high walls to some degree. That code alone provides only places withhin one mapchunk where houses can be placed - in the same circular pattern Rochambeaus settlement mod does. That approach doesn't work for villages that are larger than one mapchunk, and there's no real way to tell in advance if a particular mapchunk will be able to hold a village or not. If you're unlucky, your entire mapgen might not even have one single mapchunk where a village of that kind can be placed.

As your issue seems to be about road generation - something that bzt also showed intrest in - perhaps cooperation is possible?

I'll continue work on the settlements-like placement of villages and try to combine it with mg_villages as far as possible. In the end, most of that "overhead" from mg_villages will be necessary no matter how the houses are arranged. Else mapgen will eat holes in the houses - or the houses will have to be made out of materials mapgen doesn't eat.
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